Engine Hesitation...

[PiCASSO]

Okay, this is really disappointing. I\'ll give a little background to the event:

1. Drove to work this morning, just like any other morning. Parked the car from 7:45am through 6:30pm (yeah, I do plenty of free O/T at work).

2. It rained in the 30-degree weather a little in the afternoon, but stopped after I left work.

3. Drove home and parked the car in the garage.

4. Some 2.5-hour later I went out to meet up with a few members from TM3, a micro-meet.

5. I get in the car, backup of my driveway, and put it in first. Suddenly the car starts hesitating as it \"tries\" to accellerate. I look down, to check if I was dumb enough to leave the hand brake on. But it down and the light is off.

6. I pull over, turn the car off, and restart it after a 5-second pause.

7. Try driving off again, and the same thing! Through EVERY ear the car is hesitating like if I\'ve got it in 5th gear at 20 km/hr. Now, just for the record, I\'ve been driving stick for over 10-years now, so I have plenty of experience under my belt.

8. When I got to the mall, I drove the car in the parking lot and the guys commented that the car BACK FIRED.

9. I barely got the car back home, without having traffic behind me pissed off because of granny slow driving. I went in the house, got my digital camera, and shot some video to make sure I have proof to show in case it\'s all better tomorrow.

10. The car, in neutral, would accellarate much slower than normal. And it was IMPOSSIBLE to drop the clutch at any RPM to get ANY wheel spin.

My plan is to drop the car off at Avante Mazda tomorrow morning for the whole day and have them examine the vehicle. I have NO idea what\'s wrong, but I have a a guess that the clutch isn\'t releasing and not allow the power to be distributed to the wheels.

The car has approximately 16,000 km... a 2005 Mazda 3 Sport GT (August 2004 build date) that began it\'s journey with me in October 15, 2004. VERY disappointing. :(

I\'ll let you boys and girls know the feedback later on tomorrow.

[TheProfessor]

Wow, that sucks. Could it not be an engine related problem (i.e. not all cylinders are working properly)? This sounds a lot like what a friend of mine just experienced with his Jetta....turned out two of his six cylinders weren\'t working properly, and at least half of his power was gone.

[SoopaBanana]

Hey good luck! I\'m not sure if it\'s just a mental thing but every time after it rains my Mz3 seems to be \"unwilling\" to accelerate the way she normally does...

Keep us posted!

[PiCASSO]

Some more information:

1. Took the car to the dealership (Avante Mazda, Richmond Hill) this morning.

2. Had the driven by the service manager, who concurred that there was a problem. The car lacked power through the RPM bandwidth.

3. Although no \"check engine\" lights came on, he had the mechanics perform a diagnostic to the ECU and a look underneath to see if there was anything wrong with the fuel line. But nothing was found \"wrong\" with the vehicle.

4. His only explanation was that the fuel I purchased was bad, and possible contain condensate water. The last time I purchased new fuel was a few days ago (Sunoco, Rutherford Rd, between Dufferin and Bathurst), but only 11 liters since gas was more that 90-cents.

5. So I filled up the car to the top with some fresh Esso fuel, hoping that through out the weekend as I drive the car the issue will go away. The last thing I want to have is a regular visits to the dealership to get this issue resolved.

6. Talked to one of my friends, who tells me that there could be water in the fuel that I\'ve purchased. With all the humidity that\'s happening these last few days, there\'s plenty of moisture trapped on the lining of the (near empty) gas station\'s fuel tank. Most of it drops into the water, although it doesn\'t mix, it will be picked up by the pump and fed into your car. Which is probably what happened to me.

7. I purchased some Penzoil fuel addictive that is supposed to suck up some of the moisture in my Mazda and help to clean the system quicker. Turns out, it recommends that the fuel tank be near empty. So I\'ll wait through out the weekend.

8. On the way back home, I drove by the Sunoco station and confronted the people working there. They explained to me that the issue cannot be related to their fuel. First, I am (supposedly) the only person who has complained. Secondly, they check the gas station tank daily to determine how much water is in there. If there is some, they will call the head office to get it fixed. I got the manager\'s name and number, and will call him later on to see what\'s really happening.

9. As for my car. Well, after filling up the car and driving 10-km to work this morning, this afternoon the problem still existed, but it wasn\'t as bad as this morning. I drove another 10-km before reaching home and the car appeared to run a little better. So I\'m optimistic that the issue will go away... without the need for additing the Penzoil stuff... but I just may do it took keep the engine running a little better.

10. Not sure if this has happened to other people. Can this 2.3L engine be so sensitive to fuel contaminated with some water (or other crap)? I would have assumed that the station would be out of service for a couple of days if they got many other complaints.

I dunno... I will keep you all posted on my progress. Unfortunately, you never know what you\'re putting into your car (as I\'ve been filling up at that Sunoco station a good 1/3 of all my trips).

Cheers,

PiCASSO

[Ex-Rolla]

very interesting, please keep us posted!

[TheProfessor]

I had a similar situation happen about eight years ago with my first civic. The car had trouble starting, and when it did, it ran quite rough. I took it to a local garage and they said it was likely the fuel. Sure enough, after that tank was gone, all was okay again.

[MajesticBlueNTO]

i fill up at that sunoco all the time (as well as the 3 other cars in the family) and we have not experienced the problem you described.

[PiCASSO]

Saturday, July 16th:

1. I got in this afternoon, thinking that I will not have any major problems. I was wrong, as the car hesitated in it\'s initial revolutions between 1,000 through 3,500 RPM. It was so bad, that when I floored the accellerator, the tachometer fluctuated at the same point. But eventually, after a few kilometers the car improved.

2. I drove on the 407, speeding as I was late to pick-up my friend for the wedding. As I picked up my sister (3 of us sitting in the car), I revved up my engine to redline to make the light (since I knew that it would take another 5-minutes before it would turn red. Suddenly, the CHECK ENGINE light came on.

3. So, after the church wedding, I got back into my car thinking that the check-engine light would turn off. But it was still there. I guess that you have to have it hooked up to the ECU and clear the error codes.

4. I will drive the car through out the weekend and will have to return it to Avante Mazda on Monday morning, and let the fully diagnose the vehicle. I\'m hoping that it\'s a fuel issue, and not something that will continue through my 3-year lease commitment. :(

[PiCASSO]

Originally posted by MajesticBlueN


i fill up at that sunoco all the time (as well as the 3 other cars in the family) and we have not experienced the problem you described.

Hmmm... my guess is that this is a fuel pump issue. Which possibly could explain my poor fuel economy that I\'ve been getting with this car... now averaging 10.3 L/100km.

[MajesticBlueNTO]

Originally posted by PiCASSO



Originally posted by MajesticBlueN


i fill up at that sunoco all the time (as well as the 3 other cars in the family) and we have not experienced the problem you described.

Hmmm... my guess is that this is a fuel pump issue. Which possibly could explain my poor fuel economy that I\'ve been getting with this car... now averaging 10.3 L/100km.

check your PM

[Flagrum_3]

Originally posted by PSIVIC


I had a similar situation happen about eight years ago with my first civic. The car had trouble starting, and when it did, it ran quite rough. I took it to a local garage and they said it was likely the fuel. Sure enough, after that tank was gone, all was okay again.

I was at the micro meet and as far as I witnessed he had no trouble starting the engine, it was when he\'d launch, the engine would bog and as he gave it more juice it would bog some more and backfire slightly.I did\'nt actually drive the vehicle and it seemed to rev okay when free revving (not in gear).I\'ll take a far flung guess here but I don\'t think its the gas either, probably the fuel pump or a sensor would be my first guess.


_3


.

[PiCASSO]

Big thanks to MajesticBlueN for taking the time this evening to diagnose my engine. The error is DTC P2177, which is \"System too lean off idle\".

Courtesy of Service Manual:

DETECTION CONDITION
• The PCM monitors short term fuel trim (SHRTFT) and long term fuel trim (LONGFT) during closed loop fuel control during off-idle. If the LONGFT or the sum total of these fuel trims exceed preprogrammed criteria, PCM determines that fuel system is too lean during off-idle.
Diagnostic support note
• This is a continuous monitor. (Fuel system)
• MIL illuminates if PCM detects the above malfunctioning condition in two consecutive drive cycles or in one drive cycle while the DTC for the same malfunction has been stored in the PCM.
• PENDING CODE is available if PCM detects the above malfunction conditions during first drive cycle.
• FREEZE FRAME DATA is available.
• The DTC is stored in the PCM memory.

POSSIBLE CAUSE
• Misfire
• Front HO2S deterioration
• Front HO2S heater malfunction
• MAF sensor malfunction
• Pressure regulator (built-in fuel pump unit) malfunction
• Fuel pump malfunction
• Fuel filter clogged or restricted
• Fuel leakage on fuel line from fuel delivery pipe and fuel pump
• Leakage exhaust system
• Purge solenoid valve improper operation
• Purge solenoid valve malfunction (stuck open)
• Purge solenoid hoses improper connection
• Air suction in intake-air system
• Insufficient engine compression
• Variable valve timing control system improper operation

I certainly want to bring the car over to Avante Mazda tomorrow morning, but since I will be needing it during the day, it will have to wait till Tuesday. My thoughts are that I might need the fuel pump replaced, as it also maybe the culprit (as mentioned earlier) to my poor fuel economy, aside from choaking on the fuel that I\'ve fed it a few days ago. The tank is about 1/4 full, some 350-km since last fill-up (Friday morning). I might just place the Penzoil addictive to clean the fuel tank and lines of any contaminants, after I get feedback from Avante Mazda\'s Diagnostic procedure (18-step proceedure).

[PiCASSO]

Well, I dropped my Mazda off this morning at Avante Mazda and picked it up later on in the afternoon. Turns out there were 2 error codes that they have detected:

DTC P2177 [ZJ, Z6]: \"System too lean off idle\"
DTC P2187 [ZJ, Z6]: \"System too lean at idle\"

After a complete engine system diagnostic, they replaced the PURGE SOLENOID (P/N LF66-20-360H), did further test drives to confirm that the vehicle is back to normal. And it is.

Happily with Avante Mazda\'s service (they even washed my car) I\'m back on the road. I don\'t think I will have better fuel economy with this new purge solenoid... but only a few fill-up will tell for sure. Decided to use the with the Penzoil gas addictive, before filling up with a full tank of Shell gas, to perhaps clean the tank of any pollutants. I think that $5.00 is worth to spend on this car, although it only have some 17,000 km and it is a little early for that.

Bottom line... it was NOT the gasoline that I purchased. I take back what I\'ve said about the Sunoco station in the previous posts.

Cheers,

PiCASSO ;)

[TheProfessor]

Yeah, if your car was running to lean that I doubt you\'ll see increased gas mileage. I suppose there\'s a chance it might actually get worse.

[PiCASSO]

Originally posted by PSIVIC


Yeah, if your car was running to lean that I doubt you\'ll see increased gas mileage. I suppose there\'s a chance it might actually get worse.


Yay! :(

[Flagrum_3]

Hey Picasso, thanks for the up-date.It seems I had read somewhere before where others had problems, where the purge solenoid was the culprit...maybe Mazda had a batch of bad ones.
Anyways good to hear your off and running again and hope your gas mileage improves.


_3


.

[PiCASSO]

It\'s not over until the fat lady sings...

Thursday, July 20th:

1. Just when I thought everything was done and I wouldn\'t have to see the Avante Mazda until my next oil change, the problem re-occured. It\'s funny, because the day before (Wednesday), Joe (Assistant Service Manager at Avante) gave a courtesy call confirming if everything is good with the vehicle.

2. I drove to work early in the morning, after 5-km of driving, I began to feel the \"hesitation\" in the car, where it wouldn\'t move as well as I\'d like from 1,000 through 3,500 RPM. Same problem happened as I drove home the following evening, so I made another appointment with Avante.

Friday, July 21st:

1. I was happily able to bring the car into Avante Mazda the following day, and left the car with them for the remainder of the day.

2. One negative comment that I didn\'t like was the fact that I waited good 25-minutes before my \"north area\" driver could drop me off at work. The \"south area\" driver was sitting in the lobby during my wait reading a newspaper. If anyone from Avante is reading this, I would recommend that if you know that the wait will be more than 15-minutes, do not make the customer wait nearly 30-minutes to be dropped off while your other driver is available.

3. I got picked up at my usual 5:00pm time by the \"north area\" driver (Barry), who now knows me by first name and the location of my work (it\'s the 6th or 7th time he\'s dropped me off).

4. Turns out, the problem laid in the following areas:

A) Engine harness (replaced), which apparently had bad wiring in the plug area. When the mechanical wiggled the wire, the readings from the engine varied.

B) Fuel pump (replaced), because of the delivery of the fuel into the engine. Can\'t remember the specifics, but it made my car run lean, which possibly was another reason for the poor fuel economy.

5. Again, courtesy wash, and I got my car back for the weekend. Happy with Avante\'s service (except for that north/south driver complaint). I do hope that this will make a slight difference in my fuel economy numbers. The service manager, Ted, told me that I should wait at least a 50-100 km, before the system adjusts to the new hardware (mainly the fuel pump, solenoid, and harness).

I\'ll keep you posted on my fuel economy from the other topics. :)

[Castor]

Well, this is my first post and I had / am having the same problems with my new 05 M3 GT (5 MTX) build date 04/05, purchased June 28 from Orillia Mazda. It was purchased after my 04 M6 GT was written off in a flood.

1 week after the car was home, I noticed a hesitation between 1500-3500 rpm under anything but full accel. Then the damn thing wouldn\'t start....with 900 kms on the clock. (Wife was pissed!!!)

Returned it and they replaced the fuel pump etc after 9 days in the shop...but they gave me a loaner, so not too bad.

Working OK now, but still some hesitation in that rev range.

Last year CAMVAP awarded 2 buybacks on M3\'s with the 2.3L engine for this EXACT problem...it appears to be a fuel programming / emissions compliance thing with the PCM and precats, but Mazda hasn\'t released a fix. Several discussion on other Mazda boards relating to the same thing. I\'m no engineer but it basically sounds like the PCM adjusts for richness to enable longer life of the precats and cat....

I finally got my customer survey and I let them have it. I doubt they\'ll listen, but this was my 6th and probably last Mazda. Too bad....

Chris

[PiCASSO]

Originally posted by Castor


Well, this is my first post and I had / am having the same problems with my new 05 M3 GT (5 MTX) build date 04/05, purchased June 28 from Orillia Mazda. It was purchased after my 04 M6 GT was written off in a flood.

1 week after the car was home, I noticed a hesitation between 1500-3500 rpm under anything but full accel. Then the damn thing wouldn\'t start....with 900 kms on the clock. (Wife was pissed!!!)

Returned it and they replaced the fuel pump etc after 9 days in the shop...but they gave me a loaner, so not too bad.

Working OK now, but still some hesitation in that rev range.

Last year CAMVAP awarded 2 buybacks on M3\'s with the 2.3L engine for this EXACT problem...it appears to be a fuel programming / emissions compliance thing with the PCM and precats, but Mazda hasn\'t released a fix. Several discussion on other Mazda boards relating to the same thing. I\'m no engineer but it basically sounds like the PCM adjusts for richness to enable longer life of the precats and cat....

I finally got my customer survey and I let them have it. I doubt they\'ll listen, but this was my 6th and probably last Mazda. Too bad....

Chris


Hey Chris,

Sorry to hear your bad experience with your brand new Mazda. But at the same time, you know the saying, \"Misery loves company\". My recommendation would be for your dealership to replace the engine harness and the purge solenoid, like the have on my car. I\'ve only driven some 100-km and everything feels good... but only 1,000 through 2,000 km can verify that it was a fix (at least for my car).

Best of luck,

PiCASSO

[Whos ur dadd]

This post reminds me of my Ford Probe. What a POS. Ford is a POS.

Good luck guys. Hope you can diagnose the problem and enjoy the car again.

[Neo]

It\'s funny how you\'re quick to bash Ford... Seeing as how they make all the \"financial\" decisions for Mazda... sucks, I know, but there\'s nothing you can do..

It still amazes me how people complain about things. It\'s unfortunate this is happening to you 2 guys. This is the first I\'ve heard of this problem...

I doubt this would happen if they didn\'t have to be so strict on the emissions. That\'s the main reason why the engine runs richer than it should. For some strange reason the added fuel tends to help the cats out. If it weren\'t for those damn cats we would be getting better economy out of the engine and more power... Too bad the rest of the people like to breath as well.. ;)

I\'ll keep my eyes open regarding the 2.3lt engine...

Lates,

[Whos ur dadd]

Originally posted by Neo

It\'s funny how you\'re quick to bash Ford... Seeing as how they make all the \"financial\" decisions for Mazda... sucks, I know, but there\'s nothing you can do..



I know Ford has a significant interest in Mazda. That\'s has nothing to do with the fact that they made poor quality cars and their dealership service sucks ass. I take great comfort knowing that the 3 I bought was made in Japan. If it was a joint design like the Probe/MX6 and used mostly Ford parts, I would not have bought the car.

AND UNLESS YOU\'VE OWNED A FORD, I\'D SUGGEST YOU\'D SHADDUP!

(Sorry, it\'s still a sore point in my life).

[PiCASSO]

Originally posted by Whos ur dadd



Originally posted by Neo

It\'s funny how you\'re quick to bash Ford... Seeing as how they make all the \"financial\" decisions for Mazda... sucks, I know, but there\'s nothing you can do..



I know Ford has a significant interest in Mazda. That\'s has nothing to do with the fact that they made poor quality cars and their dealership service sucks ass. I take great comfort knowing that the 3 I bought was made in Japan. If it was a joint design like the Probe/MX6 and used mostly Ford parts, I would not have bought the car.

AND UNLESS YOU\'VE OWNED A FORD, I\'D SUGGEST YOU\'D SHADDUP!

(Sorry, it\'s still a sore point in my life).

You would be suprised how many components on the Japanese built Mazda 3 have the Ford branding logo on it. As you (and everyone else) know, the Mazda 3 is built on the same C2-platform that\'s shared with the (European) Ford Focus, Volvo S40/V40/C70, and the Mazda3. To save globally save money for Ford (and Mazda), certain components are shared. Unfortunately, some of these components are sourced from Ford chosen suppliers, where they have beaten the vendor to submission for the lowest common denominator price. Fuel pump, for example, I think is Ford source.

The only way I can confirm this theory is for someone who works in the Mazda parts department to look at the parts for the FoMoCo logo on plastic and metal components. Ford recently had given direction to all suppliers to place Ford Motor Company logo\'s on their components, along with the supplier code (5-digit) and the Ford P/N (if space is available). This is to ensure that you are getting Ford Quality product, not some aftermarket part.

And yes, we\'ve owned a Ford (1986 Ford Tempo GL and a 2002 Lincoln LS V8).

[Whos ur dadd]

Fug!!!

Just FYI, I had a whole bunch of problems with the fuel pump in my Ford POS Probe. Went in at least four times to have the noisy fuel pump looked at.

POS FORD!!!

[Neo]

Didn\'t know the Probe hurt you so much buddy.... Sorry if I hit a sore point.. ;)

Yes, it\'s true, the Mazda3 Chassis and alot of it\'s components have to be shared across the board with the other brands... It\'s the only way they can give you this much car at this price... Which you have to admit, compared to the old Protege, the Mazda3 is what the Protege should have been! :)

It didn\'t win all those awards for nothing...

And when you\'re making this many Mazda3\'s there is bound to be a few hiccups along the way...
Such is life...

Lates,

[Mz3Hatch]

Had same exact problem with purge valve. RPM\'s dipped way low and bogged for about 30 feet then decided to \'fix\' itself at times. This was the 3rd problem i had with my 3. Absoultely LOVE the car, hate the automatic im stuck with! No problems to report though since this incident however back in January. Lets hope things stay good!

[everfeb]

PiCASSO...just curious, is everything still OK? Was the problem fixed? Seen any improvement in your gas mileage?
everfeb

[sueb]

I too have been to Avante Mazda many times for problems that I have been having with my 2004 Mazda - the engine keeps stalling and I keep experiencing a power surge while my foot is off the gas pedal. Avante has yet to find the problem and everytime I too receive a complementary car wash. I think the car wash is to make up for the lack of solving the problems. I find their customer service to be lacking. My car never goes in on time and when it does come out - you wait forever for them to process the paperwork. A simple oil change takes over 1 hour. My recommendation - if you experience more problems - go to another dealership. I plan too. My problems have never been resolved and it is extremely frustrating. :(

[PiCASSO]

Originally posted by everfeb


PiCASSO...just curious, is everything still OK? Was the problem fixed? Seen any improvement in your gas mileage?
everfeb

Car is okay... works as it should. Fuel economy has NOT improved. Last few readings for the month of January (L/100km, city/highway %):

10.44 90% 10%
9.72 80% 20%
9.85 10% 90%
9.31 5% 95%
11.60 90% 10%
10.64 95% 5%
9.15 20% 80%

A cool 10.10 L/100km with a 56% City and 44% Highway mix.

[everfeb]

PiCASSO...for comparison purposes what were your Jan. \'05 F.E. #\'s like??
A mpg survey on Mazda3Forums a while back showed 2.3 5spd MTX owners were getting an average
of 23.89 mpUSg \"city\" (9.85L/100km) / and 31.18 \"hwy\" (7.54L/100km) This survey was done in the Spring of \'05 (warm weather) so it may not be quite fair to compare to your winter #\'s??

Based on your getting 26 mpUSg \"hwy\" (9.05L/100km) looks like you average around 21.53 mpUSg \"city\" (10.92L/100). Your \"city\" is mpg around 5% worse than average and your \"hwy\" is 12% worse when 5% is deducted from the survey #\'s above to account for winter gas and cold temps. Do you drive real fast on the highway? With my 2.3ATX I get around 27mpUSg when driving 60-65 mph but at 75-80 mph it can go as low as 23mpUSgal. Speed really affects my hwy mpg with 2.3ATX anyway.

My last fillup which covered a fairly cold period(-5 to -24c) I got 26mpUSg \"hwy\" and 16.26 \"city\". But in warm weather I get 27-29 mpUSg hwy (at 55-65mph) and 22-23 city (no lead footing). Cold weather REALLY effects my city mpg with the 2.3ATX.

Anyway, I hope your Jan. \'05 #\'s are worse than your Jan. \'06 #\'s which would show the work you had done has helped your mileage.

everfeb






:p :p