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SP33D 3
02-13-2008, 04:30 PM
today i had a little funny run in with a york region police officer... it all started with me paying one of my buddies some money i had borrowed from him on a trip during the winter break, the cop saw him counting the money and immediatly thought this was suspicious... he called us over and after talking to us for about 5 minutes or so he then questions my friend about where he had been in the last half hour since he matched the description of some guy who did a b&e at simonston... he was let off since his air force ones had only 2 rings on the heel side of the soul instead of four (sounds like an easy way to get off to me)

anyways he then started commenting about my car saying the lowered level was deemed dangerous to drive so it was illegal and he had mentioned something about how i had to tell my insurance about the car being lowered or i could be seriously charged since the car was "too low"
i have hte eibach springs and the car is clearly not even close to having the tires rubbing the car or the ground

3. I want to lower the suspension and slam this car.
No part of the tires may come into contact with the vehicle, no part of the vehicle can touch the ground and the front wheels cannot be visibly out of alignment.
HTA 70(3)(a) – Improper tires - $85.00/$110.00
http://www.e-laws.gov.on.ca/DBLaws/S...08_e.htm#70.(3)
HTA O.Reg 625 Section 5(b) – Reference Section for HTA 70(3)(a)
http://www.e-laws.gov.on.ca/DBLaws/R...h/900625_e.htm
HTA O.Reg 611 Schedule 1 Section 3(5) – Reference Section for HTA 84 – Operate unsafe vehicle – No Set Fine, Maximum $20,000.00 fine.
http://www.e-laws.gov.on.ca/DBLaws/R...h/900611_e.htm


now my question is, what was this cop talking about?

Cardinal Fang
02-13-2008, 04:39 PM
I think he was trying to intimidate you.

He was correct about one thing though. You do have to notify your insurance company of that type of modification. Many companies have it in the fine print that "performance" modifications to the car must be reported. This way they have the option of covering you or not. If you have an accident and it can be proven that the performance modification caused it, they can reject your claim.

I believe there was a thread on this somewhere.

FLIPDADY
02-13-2008, 04:46 PM
Pure intimidation on the officers part.

Did he measure the height of your car?

REZXPERT
02-13-2008, 04:48 PM
sorry, but hearing that kinda shit boils my blood. total intimidation. i remember being pulled over years ago (driving a car other than Mazda) - for driving with a "loud" exhaust. i won't mention the two harleys driving ahead of me. york region cops have the highest dick per capita rating in Ontario, next to OPP. and Toronto.

SP33D 3
02-13-2008, 04:57 PM
thanks cf! youre always on the law stuff... i just found it really funny how the cop handled that situation... he asked my friend which car was his and he said that mazda and pointed in the direction of my car since his was parked near it and as we were in the tim hortons, i was waiting for my food and the cop started talking to my buddy again and mentioned my car... after he left 3 other people started laughing after they overheard us talking about how it was my car.... so has everyone else told their insurance about their mods? ironically i was at don mills and steeles after taking the car to the dealership to have the front passenger strut mount checked after hitting a pot hole downtown

and no he didnt mention any numbers about the height... he just said it was illegal

Swerny
02-13-2008, 05:21 PM
sounds like a cop on a power trip to me.

TurboEight
02-13-2008, 06:39 PM
Cop was just being an ass....

some cops are nice though..

mit-gee-mui
02-13-2008, 06:47 PM
I think he was trying to intimidate you.

He was correct about one thing though. You do have to notify your insurance company of that type of modification. Many companies have it in the fine print that "performance" modifications to the car must be reported. This way they have the option of covering you or not. If you have an accident and it can be proven that the performance modification caused it, they can reject your claim.

I believe there was a thread on this somewhere.


http://www.torontomazda3.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=20734&highlight=insurance+lowered

?? Not sure if this is the one you are thinking about....

Fuman
02-13-2008, 08:34 PM
good write up.
please fix your links.

Cardinal Fang
02-13-2008, 10:11 PM
That would be it MGM.

Skarbro
02-14-2008, 05:30 AM
With regards to Insurance - it isn't in fine print - it's in the regular print. :) Here it is:

From the Ontario Automobile Policy 1 (http://www.fsco.gov.on.ca/english/insurance/auto/oap2005.pdf):

1.7.2 When We Cancel
Where your policy has been in effect for less than 60 days, we may only cancel your
policy for a reason that we have filed with the Financial Services Commission of
Ontario.
Where your policy has been in effect for more than 60 days, we may only cancel your
policy for one of the following reasons:
P non-payment of premium,
P you have given false particulars of the automobile,
P you have knowingly misrepresented or failed to disclose information that you
were required to provide in the application for automobile insurance, or P the risk has changed materially.

Flagrum_3
02-14-2008, 05:45 AM
today i had a little funny run in with a york region police officer... it all started with me paying one of my buddies some money i had borrowed from him on a trip during the winter break, the cop saw him counting the money and immediatly thought this was suspicious... he called us over and after talking to us for about 5 minutes or so he then questions my friend about where he had been in the last half hour since he matched the description of some guy who did a b&e at simonston... he was let off since his air force ones had only 2 rings on the heel side of the soul instead of four (sounds like an easy way to get off to me)

anyways he then started commenting about my car saying the lowered level was deemed dangerous to drive so it was illegal and he had mentioned something about how i had to tell my insurance about the car being lowered or i could be seriously charged since the car was "too low"
i have hte eibach springs and the car is clearly not even close to having the tires rubbing the car or the ground

3. I want to lower the suspension and slam this car.
No part of the tires may come into contact with the vehicle, no part of the vehicle can touch the ground and the front wheels cannot be visibly out of alignment.
HTA 70(3)(a) – Improper tires - $85.00/$110.00
http://www.e-laws.gov.on.ca/DBLaws/S...08_e.htm#70.(3)
HTA O.Reg 625 Section 5(b) – Reference Section for HTA 70(3)(a)
http://www.e-laws.gov.on.ca/DBLaws/R...h/900625_e.htm
HTA O.Reg 611 Schedule 1 Section 3(5) – Reference Section for HTA 84 – Operate unsafe vehicle – No Set Fine, Maximum $20,000.00 fine.
http://www.e-laws.gov.on.ca/DBLaws/R...h/900611_e.htm


now my question is, what was this cop talking about?

Basically the officer was just pulling your willy,...probably just having fun with you:chuckle ( I know because I've read thru the complete Highway traffic Act)...There is no such law in Ontario that pertains to the ride height of a vehicle.But some common sense is in issue here, say your vehicle is so low where parts may be scattered across the road, then your vehicle may be deemed unsafe.I had an idiot cop stop me in my previous vehicle saying I had no front plate, we went and took a look, there it was but on the right side of my front vascia, he then tried to tell me that was illegal, that it must be in the centre:loco I just said to him "Well thats the way it came, I guess you'll have to ticket me along with about a million other owners"...he just gave me my license back and walked away.(Just goes to show the mentality of some of these guys).

As for Insurance companies, I'd like to see them take that shit to court, because as far as I understand if your mod(s) are not against the law (highway traffic laws) pertaining to vehicle safety, they cannot penalize you or suspend your insurance, and the same goes for most other modifications people here have done to their vehicles...Remember they must prove that said modifications lead to the accident or damage (if either occurs), otherwise you are in your right to sue thier asses.

But I would guess that the Insurance Companies feel no one would ever take them to court, so they put whatever stipulations in their policies that they want.

Thats my take on it.


_3


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Skarbro
02-14-2008, 07:41 AM
As for Insurance companies, I'd like to see them take that shit to court, because as far as I understand if your mod(s) are not against the law (highway traffic laws) pertaining to vehicle safety, they cannot penalize you or suspend your insurance, and the same goes for most other modifications people here have done to their vehicles...Remember they must prove that said modifications lead to the accident or damage (if either occurs), otherwise you are in your right to sue thier asses.

But I would guess that the Insurance Companies feel no one would ever take them to court, so they put whatever stipulations in their policies that they want.

The insurance company doesn't have to take you to court.

The (HTA) law has nothing to do with the insurance company's filed rules unless they specifically refer to the law.

They do not have to prove that the mod caused the accident. When you take out an insurance policy, you are entering a legal binding contract. The details of that contract are outlined in the policy and the company's filed rules. As soon as they find out that you are lowered, most companies will drop you and/or deny the claim. Some will give you a grace period to put it back to stock.

Wild Weasel
02-14-2008, 08:31 AM
Skarbro knows his stuff.

Insurance has nothing to do with the legalities of modifications. My Sunfire doesn't have any illegal mods, yet no insurance company will touch it.

You're right in that there is no law to charge him with for having Eibach springs on the car. If the officer sees evidence of a tire rub, or sees you bouncing down the street with blown dampers or some other such thing, I'm sure there must be some generic "unsafe vehicle" law they can use, but simply being of the opinion that the car is too low without having any indication of what might make it "too" low is just a scare tactic.

Flagrum_3
02-14-2008, 09:26 AM
The insurance company doesn't have to take you to court.

The (HTA) law has nothing to do with the insurance company's filed rules unless they specifically refer to the law.

They do not have to prove that the mod caused the accident. When you take out an insurance policy, you are entering a legal binding contract. The details of that contract are outlined in the policy and the company's filed rules. As soon as they find out that you are lowered, most companies will drop you and/or deny the claim. Some will give you a grace period to put it back to stock.

I never said the Insurance companies had to take anyone to court, I was saying people should take insurance companies to court!

If an Insurance Company has limitations attached to their policies and you sign them thats a different story, but what if it was not there when you signed and they added the clause afterward.Also being that it is the law in Ontario that Auto insurance is mandatory, I would think there could be a good argument that they donnot have the legal right to revoke your insurance or deny a claim on the premises that you have added a (legal) mod....Just that I have never heard of anyone challenging the Insurance Companies on this specific issue in the courts and wonder how well this policy would hold in the courts.Just think about how rediculous it is and how the Insurance companies feel that they can come up with whatever policies they want, (basic cash grabs or theft as I see it).So...I decide I want to improve the handling on my vehicle and the safety of my vehicle and they want to deny me that right! I'm sorry but something does not make sense there....and I would believe the courts would rule the same.



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Skarbro
02-14-2008, 10:00 AM
I never said the Insurance companies had to take anyone to court, I was saying people should take insurance companies to court!

If an Insurance Company has limitations attached to their policies and you sign them thats a different story, but what if it was not there when you signed and they added the clause afterward.Also being that it is the law in Ontario that Auto insurance is mandatory, I would think there could be a good argument that they donnot have the legal right to revoke your insurance or deny a claim on the premises that you have added a (legal) mod....Just that I have never heard of anyone challenging the Insurance Companies on this specific issue in the courts and wonder how well this policy would hold in the courts.Just think about how rediculous it is and how the Insurance companies feel that they can come up with whatever policies they want, (basic cash grabs or theft as I see it).So...I decide I want to improve the handling on my vehicle and the safety of my vehicle and they want to deny me that right! I'm sorry but something does not make sense there....and I would believe the courts would rule the same.



_3


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Honestly I read and re-read your other post and it still sounds like you are saying the insurance company taking someone to court. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

It says right in the OAP1 that you have to disclose any material information. Just about every insurance company has a filed rule about performance-enhancing mods and lowered suspensions.

The insurance company will win this fight every time.

Flagrum_3
02-14-2008, 10:10 AM
Honestly I read and re-read your other post and it still sounds like you are saying the insurance company taking someone to court. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

It says right in the OAP1 that you have to disclose any material information. Just about every insurance company has a filed rule about performance-enhancing mods and lowered suspensions.

The insurance company will win this fight every time.

I guess I need to learn to write a little clearer, I'm not saying your wrong I'm just saying it doesn't seem right that they can revoke your policy for lowering your vehicle or adding an exhaust system, and wonder how it would turn out in the courts if the policy was attested....thats all.


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REZXPERT
02-14-2008, 10:32 AM
dealing with insurance companies is like visiting the emerg ward: unless it's life or death, stay the hell away.

Wild Weasel
02-14-2008, 10:43 AM
I guess I need to learn to write a little clearer, I'm not saying your wrong I'm just saying it doesn't seem right that they can revoke your policy for lowering your vehicle or adding an exhaust system, and wonder how it would turn out in the courts if the policy was attested....thats all.


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As Skarbro said, they do it because you didn't tell them about the mods. If you do anything to the car without telling them, then you can effectively void the policy. They've agreed to insure your car based on the info you've given them. If it turns out that your car is not what you said it was, then they have every right to revoke it.

Wild Weasel
02-14-2008, 10:46 AM
So...I decide I want to improve the handling on my vehicle and the safety of my vehicle and they want to deny me that right! I'm sorry but something does not make sense there....and I would believe the courts would rule the same.


They're not denying you any such thing. You can do whatever they want. They just don't have to cover it. If you choose to do the mods you want, you simply have to go to a different insurer who will cover it. In most cases, that will mean facility and you pay a lot more.

The problem here is that they don't know whether you've improved the safety or hindered it and can't be bothered to look into it for themselves.

Cardinal Fang
02-14-2008, 11:06 AM
I guess I need to learn to write a little clearer, I'm not saying your wrong I'm just saying it doesn't seem right that they can revoke your policy for lowering your vehicle or adding an exhaust system, and wonder how it would turn out in the courts if the policy was attested....thats all.


_3



People have taken insurance companies to court over many things. Most often then not they loose because they are trying to interpret "contract law," If you sign a contract with anyone you need to know your responsibilities under that contract to ensure you do not break the contract. As long as a company or individual you enter into a contract with is not asking you to break the law the contract is valid and can be upheld in a court of law. It's been done in the U.S. and it has been done in Canada.

A contract is "s a legally binding exchange of promises or agreement between parties that the law will enforce." If you enter a contract with me that indicates that you must sweep my driveway every week for 20 weeks and for which I will compensate you $20.00 dollars for each time you do it then we have an agreement. If I further tell you that at no time should you sweep my neighbors driveway otherwise you will be in breach of our agreement. This request is reasonable and not against the law. Stupid as it may be if you agree to it it's enforceable.

Everyone should read what their insurance policies state. All of it and if they have any questions they should ask. But you ask before you sign the contract NOT AFTER. You have to understand the risk you are taking.

whiteomega
02-14-2008, 12:48 PM
Everyone should read what their insurance policies state. All of it and if they have any questions they should ask. But you ask before you sign the contract NOT AFTER. You have to understand the risk you are taking.

+1. Know what you're signing before you sign it. i was upfront with my insurance company about the mods, and they were ok with it. They did have to check with their underwriter first to make sure there wasn't a problem, but they OKed me.

Flagrum_3
02-14-2008, 01:17 PM
As Skarbro said, they do it because you didn't tell them about the mods. If you do anything to the car without telling them, then you can effectively void the policy. They've agreed to insure your car based on the info you've given them. If it turns out that your car is not what you said it was, then they have every right to revoke it.

I understand that no problem.When I signed with my present insurer, I read the full 3 page document and there was no mention of modifications voiding the policy.So I guess I'm safe, unless they have changed their policy which I should find out soon when they send me this years renewal.


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Skarbro
02-14-2008, 01:24 PM
I understand that no problem.When I signed with my present insurer, I read the full 3 page document and there was no mention of modifications voiding the policy.So I guess I'm safe, unless they have changed their policy which I should find out soon when they send me this years renewal.

Do not assume you are safe! I don't know of ANY personal lines insurance company that shows you their complete filed rules up front before you sign on with them. You have to call them up and specifically ask them. You'll be in for a rude awakening if you ever get in this situation, bro.

If you want, I'll call them for you and ask what their rules are on lowering and performance mods. What's the insurance company?

Flagrum_3
02-14-2008, 01:34 PM
They're not denying you any such thing. You can do whatever they want. They just don't have to cover it. If you choose to do the mods you want, you simply have to go to a different insurer who will cover it. In most cases, that will mean facility and you pay a lot more.

The problem here is that they don't know whether you've improved the safety or hindered it and can't be bothered to look into it for themselves.


That in itself is a travesty, I can somewhat understand them needing to know if you've done mods but, if they haven't done their homework, what gives them the right to decide an exhaust is unexceptable or to say take them off or we'll drop you?

My main point is; Since Insurance is mandatory by law, Insurance companies should be obligated by law to supply coverage, without making stupid rules that do not effect the safety of the vehicle and also by law not be able to drop you unless of course you've prooved to be a problem driver and furthermore it should be our government and Insurance bureau that enforces it.The problem is the Insurance companies are allowed to make the rules with absolutely no regulation from our government and that is just wrong, if by law we are forced to have insurance.

Fang I understand contract law quite well and my argument is not about that as I stated much earlier, if you sign it then your bound to it, thats simple.My main point is what I've mentioned above in this post.


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Skarbro
02-14-2008, 01:45 PM
My main point is; Since Insurance is mandatory by law, Insurance companies should be obligated by law to supply coverage, without making stupid rules that do not effect the safety of the vehicle and also by law not be able to drop you unless of course you've prooved to be a problem driver and furthermore it should be our government and Insurance bureau that enforces it.
That is why there is Facility Insurance - the Insurance of last resort. If you are uninsurable in all the regular markets, you can still get insurance through Facility, but you are going to get raped in premium.


The problem is the Insurance companies are allowed to make the rules with absolutely no regulation from our government and that is just wrong, if by law we are forced to have insurance.

All Ontario insurance companies ARE regulated by the Ontario Government. The governing body is called the Financial Services Commission of Ontario (FSCO). Each insurance company has to get their filed rules and rates approved by FSCO.

Flagrum_3
02-14-2008, 01:58 PM
That is why there is Facility Insurance - the Insurance of last resort. If you are uninsurable in all the regular markets, you can still get insurance through Facility, but you are going to get raped in premium.


All Ontario insurance companies ARE regulated by the Ontario Government. The governing body is called the Financial Services Commission of Ontario (FSCO). Each insurance company has to get their filed rules and rates approved by FSCO.

Argh!!, FSCO they should change the acronym to FARSE, ****ing arseholes that they are.


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Cardinal Fang
02-14-2008, 02:05 PM
I was under the impression that FSCO stood for FiSting COmpany.

meh

Unoriginalusername
02-14-2008, 05:57 PM
do any normal companies without outragoues premiums allow a few mods or no?

dsichewski
02-14-2008, 07:36 PM
I can understand like if you change your exhaust or add a CAI.....i'm just wondering if i was to change my wheels...keep them at 17" but get like sportmax or rays or something. would i have to tell them? I know everyone does it but just wondering if changing the wheels would be considered a "material" thing or since its still stock size wise is it ok?

Also what is we get Mazdaspeed mods installed by Mazda dealers....I know its still modding but with its being made by mazda and installed by mazda would that work for you since they know its installed by a reputalbe shop and carries a warranty of some kind?

alhope34
02-14-2008, 09:58 PM
I can understand like if you change your exhaust or add a CAI.....i'm just wondering if i was to change my wheels...keep them at 17" but get like sportmax or rays or something. would i have to tell them? I know everyone does it but just wondering if changing the wheels would be considered a "material" thing or since its still stock size wise is it ok?


You'd still have to tell insurance. Legally, even if you install a new stereo you have to tell insurance. It's the exact same reason for rims. Your car is now a greater target for thieves. Plus, if you don't tell insurance about new rims and you come out from work to see your car up on blocks or whatever, insurance won't cover the loss of those shiny new $2000 rims. If you tell insurance and they are stolen, they are covered.

Cardinal Fang
02-15-2008, 10:25 AM
Also what is we get Mazdaspeed mods installed by Mazda dealers....I know its still modding but with its being made by mazda and installed by mazda would that work for you since they know its installed by a reputalbe shop and carries a warranty of some kind?

I understand your concern and you do pose an interesting dilemma. It's not just Mazda but many other car manufacturers are offering performance components at the point of sale and during regular scheduled car service.

I've emailed my insurance agent with a whole list of questions relating to what we've been talking about here in order to get some guidance on this. I've just received this email response.


This happens to be a perfect time to ask as we are working through those details. There is much to be said about "modified" cars right now. If you don't mind, I will take some time to go through each of your questions and get back to you with concise answers.

Off hand, however, I would like to mention that Echelon Insurance is now providing coverage for "Modified or Customized Autos" commonly referred to as Street Rods or Customs. The vehicles must be over 15 years old. I will send you a brochure today with respect to that coverage.

As for the rest, I will contact you at the first of the week with a concise answer.

Thank you,
Sandy

Skarbro
02-15-2008, 10:28 AM
Off hand, however, I would like to mention that Echelon Insurance is now providing coverage for "Modified or Customized Autos" commonly referred to as Street Rods or Customs. The vehicles must be over 15 years old. I will send you a brochure today with respect to that coverage.

Yeah you can get insurance with a more regular market for modified cars if they are freaking old, but a newer modded car is left with Facility insurance.

Flagrum_3
02-15-2008, 11:17 AM
Yeah you can get insurance with a more regular market for modified cars if they are freaking old, but a newer modded car is left with Facility insurance.

Yeah how stupid is that? My supervisor at work has a 1970 Challenger pushing about 700+ hp and he pays less on that than I pay on my 150hp 3 :loco ...go figure and I would say his car is worth alot more than mine also.


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EvilDeadFan
02-15-2008, 11:21 AM
After the cop finishes talking to you and takes off, you should pull HIM/HER over for the illegal use of an open screen while driving! They all have notebook computers open while driving, those bastards! :P

Cardinal Fang
02-15-2008, 12:03 PM
Yeah how stupid is that? My supervisor at work has a 1970 Challenger pushing about 700+ hp and he pays less on that than I pay on my 150hp 3 :loco ...go figure and I would say his car is worth alot more than mine also.


_3


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You have to factor in the person driving the 700 hp car with their past driving experience in order to obtain an accurate insurance rate. Assuming identical driving records:

24 yr old male with 700 hp car vs 64 yr old male with 700 hp car.

I don't think it comes to anyones surprise who pays more. Remember that insurance is about risk assessment. Given the statistics who is more than likely to be involved in an accident?


After the cop finishes talking to you and takes off, you should pull HIM/HER over for the illegal use of an open screen while driving! They all have notebook computers open while driving, those bastards! :P

Any chance they're surfing for porn while driving?

Flagrum_3
02-15-2008, 01:01 PM
[QUOTE=Cardinal Fang;259957]You have to factor in the person driving the 700 hp car with their past driving experience in order to obtain an accurate insurance rate. Assuming identical driving records:

24 yr old male with 700 hp car vs 64 yr old male with 700 hp car.

I don't think it comes to anyones surprise who pays more. Remember that insurance is about risk assessment. Given the statistics who is more than likely to be involved in an accident?
[/QOUTE]

Well that doesn't work here as my supervisor is younger than me doesn't have as clean a record as I, has not been driving as long as I, only difference would be location and number of vehicles insured.But thats not the point.The point is lets say I install a CAI, it will not add much hp/tq at all, it'll possibly allow my vehicle to run better and add some mpg but they will call it a performance enhancement, throw me in a certain risk group and charge me more or cancel my policy, yet I could possibly go buy a 20 year old 400hp vehicle and pay less?...Call me simple but something does not add up there...Insurance Companies are thiefs, they come up with stuff all the time to increase their profits yet our so called FARSE group does in no sense regulate anything.What insurance companies want they get and that is my point and that is WRONG.

It used to be simple, if you added anything to your vehicle and it was stolen or destroyed in an accident, you would show receipts of such things and the insurance would pay you the money.It didn't matter what you added.But now for some reason you must tell them when you've installed something, and then your at their mercy if they will keep you insured :loco I'm sorry....wrong, wrong,wrong.


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Wild Weasel
02-15-2008, 02:37 PM
Just waiting for my Sunfire to be old enough to insure. :chuckle

Skarbro
02-15-2008, 02:42 PM
It's all actuarial data. The 20 year old car with 400 hp is most likely babied and driving hardly at all. Today's ricer cars are daily drivers clocking tens of thousands more clicks a year. Which is more likely to get into an accident?

And you ALWAYS still have Facility to fall on if you get cancelled. Would you rather your insurance company just charge you Facility rates?

Skarbro
02-15-2008, 02:43 PM
Just waiting for my Sunfire to be old enough to insure. :chuckle
In 2021? Heh....

Wild Weasel
02-15-2008, 02:46 PM
Nah... should be able to get coverage in 2016. :bana

dsichewski
02-15-2008, 05:20 PM
I understand your concern and you do pose an interesting dilemma. It's not just Mazda but many other car manufacturers are offering performance components at the point of sale and during regular scheduled car service.

I've emailed my insurance agent with a whole list of questions relating to what we've been talking about here in order to get some guidance on this. I've just received this email response.


This happens to be a perfect time to ask as we are working through those details. There is much to be said about "modified" cars right now. If you don't mind, I will take some time to go through each of your questions and get back to you with concise answers.

Off hand, however, I would like to mention that Echelon Insurance is now providing coverage for "Modified or Customized Autos" commonly referred to as Street Rods or Customs. The vehicles must be over 15 years old. I will send you a brochure today with respect to that coverage.

As for the rest, I will contact you at the first of the week with a concise answer.

Thank you,
Sandy


Once Again Thanks Cardinal! I appreciate you looking into this and I look forward to seeing what they come back with as an answer.

David

SP33D 3
02-15-2008, 06:20 PM
yea my insurance company has the same offer with street rods or customs having to be 15 years or older... and it says they can't be a daily driver and another vehicle must be owned

WLS ZMZM
02-15-2008, 07:43 PM
As a few have mentioned not notifying your insurance company, of your mods can result in cancellations, most situations I've seen they'll fix the car... but back to stock... (they don't replace your mods). You should be reporting everything... with both my civic and my 3... my insurance is fully aware of the stereo systems in the cars.. and in fact I had to go get them both appraised.

As for the older car insurance, someone hit it right on the nose, the car may be more dangerous.. but the chances of it being on the road all the time are slim to none, I had the classic insurance on my old buick before I sold it.. it was like $125 for the year, but you couldn't take it when you wanted and there were alot of stipulations, but it was okay...


Gotta love the YRPD... no fresh donuts I guess when they saw you guys. I am sorry but these guys are TOp cocks in my opinion the biggest :AH of all the 5-0, at least he didn't try to pull the whole two finger issue , I remember asking an OPP officer about this and he started laughing and he brought something up that never even crossed my mind.. my two fingers... your two fingers.. his two fingers they all different. The only rule I've ever heard of which I think is in the E.R.A.S.E manual is that the vehicle can not rub when the wheels are cranked. Many officers just play mechanic....

04GTFX
02-17-2008, 07:34 PM
as everyone said, as long as your not rubbing/scraping your in the clear


but I did read somewhere that headlight/taillight height does have regulations that is were they may nab you

whiteomega
02-19-2008, 01:03 AM
<snip>

This happens to be a perfect time to ask as we are working through those details. There is much to be said about "modified" cars right now. If you don't mind, I will take some time to go through each of your questions and get back to you with concise answers.

Off hand, however, I would like to mention that Echelon Insurance is now providing coverage for "Modified or Customized Autos" commonly referred to as Street Rods or Customs. The vehicles must be over 15 years old. I will send you a brochure today with respect to that coverage.

As for the rest, I will contact you at the first of the week with a concise answer.


i think another valid question, and something that should be looked into, is why we can buy a mazdaspeed3 for more money with more power and be covered by insurance, but mods like the mazdaspeed accessories can possibly kick you off insurance? the mazdaspeed3 is obviously faster, costs more money, etc. how is it different than modding a regular 3 to that point, especially if the mods are installed by the dealership?

is it just because the speed3 is "factory-equipped"?

Let us know when you hear back...

Cardinal Fang
02-19-2008, 09:06 AM
That was exactly one of the questions I asked.

WLS ZMZM
02-19-2008, 02:39 PM
that would be correct sir... the speed3 comes equipped like that, you will pay a little more on insurance because the car is factory modded. Since it is O.E.M equipped its not techincally defined as "modified" if you take a base 3 and add all the parts from mazdaspeed they may be OEM as they are made by mazda but are not on the vehicle when it leaves the factory. Kind of a stupid stipulation. but thats how it goes...

whiteomega
02-19-2008, 04:12 PM
that would be correct sir... the speed3 comes equipped like that, you will pay a little more on insurance because the car is factory modded. Since it is O.E.M equipped its not techincally defined as "modified" if you take a base 3 and add all the parts from mazdaspeed they may be OEM as they are made by mazda but are not on the vehicle when it leaves the factory. Kind of a stupid stipulation. but thats how it goes...

this is precisely my point; speed3 owners pay more for insurance because it's a "higher-risk" car..but it's not any higher risk than a normal mazda3 modified with mazdaspeed accessories, so why the refusal to insure? it drives me kind of nuts sometimes.

i'm sure there is a logical reason beyond "so your premiums are higher and we see more phat loot"...but i can't fathom what that is. would be nice to know.

alhope34
02-19-2008, 04:51 PM
this is precisely my point; speed3 owners pay more for insurance because it's a "higher-risk" car..but it's not any higher risk than a normal mazda3 modified with mazdaspeed accessories, so why the refusal to insure? it drives me kind of nuts sometimes.

The MS3 should still be a higher risk than a regular 3 even with all the MS parts, seeing as how Mazda does not offer a turbo kit for the regular 3, and the turbo is what should be adding most of the power to the MS3.

Flagrum_3
02-19-2008, 08:37 PM
It's all actuarial data. The 20 year old car with 400 hp is most likely babied and driving hardly at all. Today's ricer cars are daily drivers clocking tens of thousands more clicks a year. Which is more likely to get into an accident?

And you ALWAYS still have Facility to fall on if you get cancelled. Would you rather your insurance company just charge you Facility rates?

First of all Actuarial Data can and no doubt is manipulated by all Insurance Companies and dare I say our trusted government organizations! (FARSE)

...What ever happened to a person's personal driving record as the main body of your Insurance coverage in that Acturarial data??? ...The last few posts here basically repeated what I have been trying to say, in that I decide to mod my vehicle, these mods in no way make me or my vehicle any more dangerous or more likely to get into an accident, then if I would have bought a Speed 3, actually far less I would think, seeing as I have half the power, yet the Insurance companies can ignore my 30 year (clean) driving history and also the mechanics of it all, and refuse to insure me under normal insurance, by placing me in Facilities....Sorry it may be the way it is, but there is definitely something wrong with the whole set-up...Its a Big Cash Cow thats all it is, and like I said before, it is not regulated in the sense that the FARSE group donnot really control anything, they are just there for show....The main point here is modding my vehicle (moderately) should not in any way put me in that position, my personal driving history should be the main stipulation on my insurance, not what I've done to my car.

Also back to some contract discussion, let me explain something to you about contract law, in the same way that I must make sure I have read and understood the contract completely before I've signed, it is also the Insurance Companies obligation by contract law to list All pertinent information and stipulations on said contract.otherwise the contract is not binding, meaning I should not be concerned nor should I have to contact my Insurance Company to otherwise find out about any stipulations that have not been listed or mentioned in the contract, because basically they are not legal or binding.



_3


.

Skarbro
02-20-2008, 08:09 AM
All the complaining in the world on here won't change a thing. Insurance companies have filed rules. If you want to complain about it or obtain a copy of your company's filed rules, then why don't you give FSCO a call?

http://www.fsco.gov.on.ca/english/about/contactinformation.asp

And again, you still have Facility Association for insurance. If you really want to mod the crap out of your newer car, then you can always get insurance through them.

whiteomega
02-20-2008, 10:50 AM
i'm not complaining about the policies of insurance companies, i would just like some clarification on those policies (like why factory cars can be insured, but as the TD person told me, if it doesn't come from the factory, it can't be insured [which is foolish because it means anything you buy from the dealership, like OEM bodykits becomes "uninsurable" given the above generalization])

does the FSCO have those justifications? i'm under the impression they don't, from what's been said here.

Wild Weasel
02-20-2008, 11:27 AM
As I said earlier... the insurance companies can't be bothered to evaluate the modifications to determine whether they're done properly or how they affect the risk of insuring them. It's easier for them to just wash their hands of the whole thing.

It's easy enough to justify. Since there's no way to prove that what you've done isn't unsafe somehow, they can easily deny it.

Purely cosmetic things are covered. You shouldn't have any issues there. It's things that affect performance and handling that throw up the red flags.

How does the insurance company know that the intake you installed won't cause an engine fire? How do they know that lowering your car by an inch won't throw off the handling and toss you off the road? They don't, and can't be bothered to find out.

whiteomega
02-20-2008, 11:54 AM
true that, but then what's the difference between buying a mazdaspeed3, and a mazda3 with a dealer "performance package" that includes all the mazda3 mazdaspeed accessories? i could understand if they were not OEM parts, but the mazdaspeed parts are OEM, just branded with mazda's own race engineering division.

as an example, how does the Mazda RX-8 with performance package (sold last year by mazda dealers) differ from a normal Mazda RX-8, upgraded with the Mazdaspeed CAI? It's the same car, the same "modification", so shouldn't the former be disallowed by insurance, just as the latter is?

Edited for clarity: assume the CAI in the latter case is installed at purchase time, but is not part of any package.

Skarbro
02-20-2008, 01:02 PM
Just because Mazda makes and sells it, it doesn't make it insurable.

Canadian tire sells smoked and coloured licence plate covers, but those are very illegal in Ontario.

whiteomega
02-20-2008, 01:21 PM
Just because Mazda makes and sells it, it doesn't make it insurable.

Canadian tire sells smoked and coloured licence plate covers, but those are very illegal in Ontario.

fair enough. that's an (admitedly bad) assumption on my part. so what happens if someone bought an RX-8 with performance package, and has a at-fault claim with insurance? i assume they'll need to present the bill of sale proving the package came with the car?

Skarbro
02-20-2008, 01:28 PM
Yeah. And to be honest, there are many insurance companies who would cover it nevertheless. This is a grey area. It all depends on your insurance company and how crusty your adjuster is.

Wild Weasel
02-20-2008, 02:18 PM
If you buy the car with the accessories included, they'll be on the bill of sale. That yellow sheet you get when you buy the car has all the options and accessories listed on it. That's full disclosure and if the insurance company doesn't throw any red flags right off the bat, then all should be well. Just about all insurance companies will be fine with that.

Of course, those same companies will give you the boot if you go and put all that stuff on yourself the very next day. Go figure.

Noisy Crow
02-20-2008, 02:49 PM
If you buy the car with the accessories included, they'll be on the bill of sale. That yellow sheet you get when you buy the car has all the options and accessories listed on it. That's full disclosure and if the insurance company doesn't throw any red flags right off the bat, then all should be well. Just about all insurance companies will be fine with that.

Of course, those same companies will give you the boot if you go and put all that stuff on yourself the very next day. Go figure.

So what your are saying is.... I should a have had MoT throw on the full MS suspension and the MS CAI when I bought my car!

whiteomega
02-20-2008, 03:04 PM
that's exactly what he's saying....that still assumes those items do not raise any red flags for insurance though.

Wild Weasel
02-20-2008, 03:22 PM
Yeah, it's certainly no guarantee. I mean... how is that any different from buying a used car with the same mods on it?

I'm just saying there's a better shot of having it covered from the start. Even then, you could have issues when changing companies and what not.

The bottom line is that insurance companies don't want to insure modified cars.

Flagrum_3
02-21-2008, 03:17 AM
All the complaining in the world on here won't change a thing. Insurance companies have filed rules. If you want to complain about it or obtain a copy of your company's filed rules, then why don't you give FSCO a call?

http://www.fsco.gov.on.ca/english/about/contactinformation.asp

And again, you still have Facility Association for insurance. If you really want to mod the crap out of your newer car, then you can always get insurance through them.

I'm not so much complaining as trying to explain whats wrong with the whole Car Insurance Scam going on in Canada! I have written to my MP and will continue to write until I can get some answers, and I would hope more people would also!....but so far I've been ignored.
You keep going to the Facilities coverage in all your posts ignoring the points I have made, so here I go again and I'll try to be clear; Seeing as it is Law to have Vehicle Insurance coverage (in Ontario), Insurance companies should be by law ,obligated to cover you, with no excuse of releasing you from coverage other than your driving history(or health reasons).No other reason should surfice and Insurance companies should have to take the risk, not just pass insurees off to facilities....Was the Insurance law put in place to protect the people or to protect the Insurance Companies? ...that seems to me to be the main question and the problem.Insurance Companies are a business and like all business's comes risk, but it seems to me that that fact as been overlooked by our said Government agency in charge of controlling the Insurance Companies, hense they allow these companies to change policies only with the intent of saving said companies money (or should I say to protect profits)....Saying that I or my vehicle are of higher risk because I've lowered it, without any data to back that up seems to be a little scrupulous to me.

Maybe if more people would write to thier MPs and to the FSCO complaining of such things, maybe just maybe, they might be forced to stop overlooking these scrupulous behaviors and start actually monitoring and questioning Insurance Company policies and protecting us law abiding, tax paying citizens from them.

Rant over,



_3


.

Skarbro
02-21-2008, 05:23 AM
I'm not so much complaining as trying to explain whats wrong with the whole Car Insurance Scam going on in Canada! I have written to my MP and will continue to write until I can get some answers, and I would hope more people would also!....but so far I've been ignored.
You keep going to the Facilities coverage in all your posts ignoring the points I have made, so here I go again and I'll try to be clear; Seeing as it is Law to have Vehicle Insurance coverage (in Ontario), Insurance companies should be by law ,obligated to cover you, with no excuse of releasing you from coverage other than your driving history(or health reasons).No other reason should surfice and Insurance companies should have to take the risk, not just pass insurees off to facilities....Was the Insurance law put in place to protect the people or to protect the Insurance Companies? ...that seems to me to be the main question and the problem.Insurance Companies are a business and like all business's comes risk, but it seems to me that that fact as been overlooked by our said Government agency in charge of controlling the Insurance Companies, hense they allow these companies to change policies only with the intent of saving said companies money (or should I say to protect profits)....Saying that I or my vehicle are of higher risk because I've lowered it, without any data to back that up seems to be a little scrupulous to me.

Maybe if more people would write to thier MPs and to the FSCO complaining of such things, maybe just maybe, they might be forced to stop overlooking these scrupulous behaviors and start actually monitoring and questioning Insurance Company policies and protecting us law abiding, tax paying citizens from them.

Rant over,



_3


.
Insurance companies ARE by law obligated to covering you as you put it. Facility Association is a pool of all the Ontario insurance companies for last resort insurance. All the insurance companies pay for your claims when you are in Facility. When they cancel your insurance and send you off to Facility, they just shifting the risk to all the other companies too.

I'm not trying to defend the insurance companies' rules. Just clarifying. Personally, insurability is the main reason I haven't lowered my car or thrown in an aftermarket intake. (well that and I have a kid now and my money goes towards him!)

whiteomega
02-21-2008, 07:55 AM
i remember reading somewhere (i can't find the link offhand right now) that it was the insurance industry in Ontario that was obligated to provide insurance; not any one company.

this is why Facility exists; it's insurance for people whom normal companies consider uninsurable. since Facility insures high-risk individuals, the premiums are higher (as you would expect...)

Skarbro
02-21-2008, 08:21 AM
i remember reading somewhere (i can't find the link offhand right now) that it was the insurance industry in Ontario that was obligated to provide insurance; not any one company.

this is why Facility exists; it's insurance for people whom normal companies consider uninsurable. since Facility insures high-risk individuals, the premiums are higher (as you would expect...)
Yup you hit the nail on the head. ;)

Although the term uninsurable is a little extreme. More like the companies feel that the risk is too great to take on. Everything is insurable for the right price. :)

BTW, if private insurance companies were forced to insure everyone that walked through their door with no power to cancel, then you can damn well expect them to be charging high Facility-like rates for all those people who would otherwise be in Facility.

Flagrum_3
02-21-2008, 08:32 AM
Yup you hit the nail on the head. ;)

Although the term uninsurable is a little extreme. More like the companies feel that the risk is too great to take on. Everything is insurable for the right price. :)

BTW, if private insurance companies were forced to insure everyone that walked through their door with no power to cancel, then you can damn well expect them to be charging high Facility-like rates for all those people who would otherwise be in Facility.

Did you guys try reading my post even with a morsal of attention! Its like talking to a wall!


_3


.

Wild Weasel
02-21-2008, 08:35 AM
After a couple pages of posts, I figured it out. :) We're explaining to you why things are the way they are, but that's not what you're asking.

In fact, you're not really asking for any answers, right? You're just giving commentary on the state of the industry and how they're essentially screwing us for no fair reason.

In that case, we're in agreement. :bana

Flagrum_3
02-21-2008, 09:08 AM
After a couple pages of posts, I figured it out. :) We're explaining to you why things are the way they are, but that's not what you're asking.

In fact, you're not really asking for any answers, right? You're just giving commentary on the state of the industry and how they're essentially screwing us for no fair reason.

In that case, we're in agreement. :bana

Bingo!!, I don't think I need explaining on how Insurance works, I know how it works (no conceit intended), I'm hoping to make people aware (if not already) that they are getting hosed in all kinds of ways by these Insurance companies and also by our government agencies, (which supposedly exist to protect us from such companies) and hoping that enough people will get mad enough to start writing thier MPs etc; not just saying; 'oh thats the way it is, nothing we can do about it'.....Like sheep to the slaughter.



_3


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Wild Weasel
02-21-2008, 09:15 AM
Unfortunately, we're too small a market for any of them to care about and the general public just views us as punk street racers out to kill everyone.

Skarbro
02-21-2008, 10:46 AM
Writing to your MP will no doubt do nothing. Many have tried over the years. They've all failed.

whiteomega
02-21-2008, 01:39 PM
Writing to your MP will no doubt do nothing. Many have tried over the years. They've all failed.

you never know...it might actually work....at least until the industry goes "umm...no, not letting that happen" and donates a bunch of money to your MP to stop anything you might try...

RX9
02-23-2008, 12:48 AM
did MPs drive mod cars? ( winter tire....) :chuckle

Wild Weasel
02-25-2008, 08:04 AM
There was some senator or other high-ranking gov't official in California (not Arnold) who just recently got car-jacked and was in the news. It was rollin' on DUBS or something. :chuckle

RX9
02-27-2008, 01:37 PM
There was some senator or other high-ranking gov't official in California (not Arnold) who just recently got car-jacked and was in the news. It was rollin' on DUBS or something. :chuckle

so they do.:chuckle

Ex-Rolla
03-06-2008, 07:56 PM
I think Skarboro mentioned these issues sometimes fall in the "gray area", and i would have to agree...

some of you know my car was found and fully repaired (finally). I had the Mazdaspeed struts/springs installed and my insurance company replaced them with no questions. i never told them i had it installed, but they didn't question it.

Noisy Crow
03-06-2008, 09:22 PM
I think Skarboro mentioned these issues sometimes fall in the "gray area", and i would have to agree...

some of you know my car was found and fully repaired (finally). I had the Mazdaspeed struts/springs installed and my insurance company replaced them with no questions. i never told them i had it installed, but they didn't question it.

What company are you with..................

Skarbro
03-13-2008, 05:21 AM
You have to be careful with stuff like that. Sometimes the claims adjuster will pay for aftermarket replacements without notifying the underwriter. You are still obligated to let the underwriter know about your mods - whose opinion of the matter could be quite different. But in this case, you can still take a *chance* and not tell them.

dsichewski
03-14-2008, 09:23 PM
I understand your concern and you do pose an interesting dilemma. It's not just Mazda but many other car manufacturers are offering performance components at the point of sale and during regular scheduled car service.

I've emailed my insurance agent with a whole list of questions relating to what we've been talking about here in order to get some guidance on this. I've just received this email response.


This happens to be a perfect time to ask as we are working through those details. There is much to be said about "modified" cars right now. If you don't mind, I will take some time to go through each of your questions and get back to you with concise answers.

Off hand, however, I would like to mention that Echelon Insurance is now providing coverage for "Modified or Customized Autos" commonly referred to as Street Rods or Customs. The vehicles must be over 15 years old. I will send you a brochure today with respect to that coverage.

As for the rest, I will contact you at the first of the week with a concise answer.

Thank you,
Sandy

Hey Cardinal Fang,

I was just wondering if you ever got a response back from your insurance person? I'm just curious to see their answers.

Thanks again :)

David

Cardinal Fang
03-14-2008, 09:32 PM
Done!

http://torontomazda3.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=23202

gta_driver
11-11-2008, 04:41 PM
sorry, but hearing that kinda shit boils my blood. total intimidation. i remember being pulled over years ago (driving a car other than Mazda) - for driving with a "loud" exhaust. i won't mention the two harleys driving ahead of me. york region cops have the highest dick per capita rating in Ontario, next to OPP. and Toronto.

Makes my blood boil too, however, there are a couple of things to be done in such a case.

First thing. He should not be questioning you at length. You have the right not to answer any of his questions. You can ask "Officer, am I being detained?". Or, you can keep asking "Am I free to go, officer?" You could also ask "Officer, do you interrogate everyone who counts money on the street?"

You guys should watch this little video. It's a lecture given by a law professor, and also has a cop give his perspective - both agree, NEVER talk to the police.

Part 1 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8z7NC5sgik

Part 2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08fZQWjDVKE

On the subject of him BSing about lowering, you should ask him to cite the law that you broke. And then keep asking "Am I free to go, or are you detaining me?"

Here is another video clip that's worth watching very much. It's a bit longer (45 minutes), but do watch it.

BUSTED: The Citizen's Guide to Surviving Police Encounters (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yqMjMPlXzdA)

While all these videos are from the US, much of it applies here.

Unoriginalusername
11-11-2008, 06:48 PM
Makes my blood boil too, however, there are a couple of things to be done in such a case.

First thing. He should not be questioning you at length. You have the right not to answer any of his questions. You can ask "Officer, am I being detained?". Or, you can keep asking "Am I free to go, officer?" You could also ask "Officer, do you interrogate everyone who counts money on the street?"

You guys should watch this little video. It's a lecture given by a law professor, and also has a cop give his perspective - both agree, NEVER talk to the police.

Part 1 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8z7NC5sgik

Part 2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08fZQWjDVKE

On the subject of him BSing about lowering, you should ask him to cite the law that you broke. And then keep asking "Am I free to go, or are you detaining me?"

Here is another video clip that's worth watching very much. It's a bit longer (45 minutes), but do watch it.

BUSTED: The Citizen's Guide to Surviving Police Encounters (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yqMjMPlXzdA)

While all these videos are from the US, much of it applies here.

interesting, which don't apply?

jaimie08mazda3
11-12-2008, 01:31 AM
Makes my blood boil too, however, there are a couple of things to be done in such a case.

First thing. He should not be questioning you at length. You have the right not to answer any of his questions. You can ask "Officer, am I being detained?". Or, you can keep asking "Am I free to go, officer?" You could also ask "Officer, do you interrogate everyone who counts money on the street?"

You guys should watch this little video. It's a lecture given by a law professor, and also has a cop give his perspective - both agree, NEVER talk to the police.

Part 1 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8z7NC5sgik

Part 2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08fZQWjDVKE

On the subject of him BSing about lowering, you should ask him to cite the law that you broke. And then keep asking "Am I free to go, or are you detaining me?"

Here is another video clip that's worth watching very much. It's a bit longer (45 minutes), but do watch it.

BUSTED: The Citizen's Guide to Surviving Police Encounters (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yqMjMPlXzdA)

While all these videos are from the US, much of it applies here.

Its true dont talk to cops. actually a guy at my work showed me those videos. its amazing what you dont realize and are just helping out police, they will find something to charge you with even if you had nothing against you. Some people (as that one guy who was locked up for 16 years before they found out he was completely innocent of a murder and that cost the court 8Million, read that in the papers.) Never talk to cops, because if you say the wrong thing they will get you to basically say something when they start questioning you because you are nervous and will say anything at any time. those 2 videos taught me a few things for sure.

p-o-g-i
11-12-2008, 08:48 AM
interesting, which don't apply?

+1

gta_driver
11-18-2008, 12:30 PM
interesting, which don't apply?

I added that as a disclaimer since the videos are from the US, and we do not exactly have identical laws.

It's my understanding that pretty much everything learned from those videos can be transferred to Canada and used here.

Tsirpas
02-06-2009, 11:47 AM
York regional cops are ****ing losers.
OPP is next in line to being jack asses.
Peel is just something to LOL at.

My brothers in TPS, and I will be too :) Toronto Police for the win!

seelsy
05-04-2009, 10:03 AM
see cops up here in midland arent all that bad, i play hockey with nearly 50% of the local police force, and their all ok guys, won't pull you over for dumb reasons and hassle you, although there are definitely a few on there who seem they have something to prove. The OPP centre in town is full of a**holes though who have a bone to pick with anyone who drives a better car then their kia accents civillian cars. But for the most part, our midland municipal cops are good.

freddymak18
05-12-2009, 03:08 AM
gta cops have more important things to deal with like stabbings. YR cops are really tight though