Dyno Day Sunday February 22nd at 10:00 AM

[Big Dad]

Any interest in doing a dyno day around Saturday February 21st. It will be on a 2008 Dyno Jet dyno (current means accurate) in Scarborough on St Clair between Kennedy and Midland. The price is $50 (very reasonable) and possibly less if there is a lot of interest.

Let see how the winter mods are coming along and get a preview of the Spring. I am sure there are few dyno queens out there dying to be exposed!

[laksman91]

Does this have an "AWD" dyno?

[rajin929]

sounds interesting - I've wanted to dyno my car out of curiosity

would this just be open to M3's? I'd like to bring out my accord that's got a few bolt ons

[Kevin@nextmod]

how many runs?

[WhiteSpeed3]

im interested

and will also like to know if they got a AWD dyno?

[Big Dad]

It is not an all wheel drive dyno. They are willing to do 3 to 4 runs which should be sufficient. Glad to see some interest. I don't care what kind of car you bring but this offer is exclusive to this forum.

[Fobio]

Sounds good man!

[Big Dad]

Date changed to Sunday February 22nd at 12 noon due to popular request.

[Fobio]

Sunday February 22nd, 12PM

1. Big Dad
2. Fobio
3.
4.
5.
6.
7.
8.
9.
10.

Are you serious? We're getting AFR readouts @ this price!?

[WhiteSpeed3]

Sunday February 22nd, 12PM

1. Big Dad
2. Fobio
3. whitespeed3
4.
5.
6.
7.
8.
9.
10.

[alhope34]

1. Big Dad
2. Fobio
3. whitespeed3
4. alhope
5.
6.
7.
8.
9.
10.


Haha, My fiance will be here from Montreal that week. I wonder how she'll like the idea of our first day together that visit spent at a dyno shop.

[WhiteSpeed3]

i will be parking my car next week as my beater is finally done so no dyno for me but i'll come to watch

1. Big Dad
2. Fobio
3. whitespeed3 (coming to watch)
4. alhope
5.
6.
7.
8.
9.
10.

[Garu]

Do they have decent parking lot where people can actually park their car? So we don't have to on top of each other? (Or our cars don't have to be on top or bottom of other cars...)

[mleblond]

1. Big Dad
2. Fobio
3. mleblond
4. alhope
5.
6.
7.
8.
9.
10.

Spectators:
1. whitespeed3
2.
3.
4.
5.

[Fobio]

we're charging spectators $$$ to watch right?! ;-)

[mleblond]

we're charging spectators $$$ to watch right?! ;-)


Some one has to pay for the dyno right? :chuckle

[WhiteSpeed3]

lol u guys let me know what i got to pay

[alhope34]

I'll take $50.

[Big Dad]

Do they have decent parking lot where people can actually park their car? So we don't have to on top of each other? (Or our cars don't have to be on top or bottom of other cars...)

The parking lot is apparently small, but will not be an issue on Sunday as the neighbouring businesses will be closed.

[ThucP]

Only for mazdas? My friend wants to dyno his GTI

[Big Dad]

Only for mazdas? My friend wants to dyno his GTI

No problem, add him to the list.

[SpeedBaby]

there will be 2 GTI there then :)


Only for mazdas? My friend wants to dyno his GTI

[ThucP]

1. Big Dad
2. Fobio
3. mleblond
4. alhope
5. ThucP(Friends GTI)
6.
7.
8.
9.
10.

Spectators:
1. whitespeed3
2.
3.
4.
5.

[Hives]

Ah, im on a stock motor, whats the point lollll

Maybe I should bring my dads V6 Rav4 to impress everyone lolllll

[mleblond]

Ah, im on a stock motor, whats the point lollll

Maybe I should bring my dads V6 Rav4 to impress everyone lolllll

Well it's nice to see what others can do. And a stock Dyno is a good starting point to your mods :)

[Cardinal Fang]

New date and time added to the thread.

[alhope34]

So what is the exact location and address of this place??

[Unoriginalusername]

might go as a spectator

[Big Dad]

The dyno is at K&H Rad located at 3596 St Clair ave East in Scarborough between Midland Ave and Kennedy Road on the North side. He wants everybody there at 10:00 A.M.

[Big Dad]

For those Turbo cars, air/fuel ratios will be included upon request.

[Cardinal Fang]

Please note that the start time is now revised to 10:00 am.

[mleblond]

Getting my fuel pump replaced by mazda. hopefully before the dyno or else I will only spectate.

[Big Dad]

Here is the website with clear directions for next Sunday.


http://www.khrad.com/contact_us.html

[alhope34]

This place is just a 1 minute drive from where I live. I didn't know there was a shop with a dyno so close. Will be good for when I eventually get more mods.

[Donutz]

I might show up to watch. I'm about 5 mins from there.

[alhope34]

Well, looks like I'm out. I've got no work at least for tomorrow, maybe Friday too, things MIGHT be going back to normal next week but my bosses don't even know. With $30 in my bank account and $655 a month just in car finance payments, I can't spare the $50 to waste on this. I've decided I'm going back to stock. Watch out for my "for sale" thread soon if anyone wants any MS3 parts. PM me if interested.

[mleblond]

Well, looks like I'm out. I've got no work at least for tomorrow, maybe Friday too, things MIGHT be going back to normal next week but my bosses don't even know. With $30 in my bank account and $655 a month just in car finance payments, I can't spare the $50 to waste on this. I've decided I'm going back to stock. Watch out for my "for sale" thread soon if anyone wants any MS3 parts. PM me if interested.

did you get another speeding ticket? What a waste of $$ :loco I guess you wont be taking Eloise out this weekend ;)

[alhope34]

did you get another speeding ticket? What a waste of $$ :loco I guess you wont be taking Eloise out this weekend ;)

Nope, not working next two days due to lack of work. My job is probably going to become pretty irratic soon. I guess I did overreact a bit, though. I guess I'm still going to the dyno day, but if I lose my job then I'll be forced to put it back to stock.

[Big Dad]

See you all tomorrow.

[-cj-]

I'm in... See you guys at 10am!

[alhope34]

Good to see all the old and new faces. I got 281 whp and 272 wtq. I would have liked to see better numbers, I guess the stock mid pipe is really holding me back.

[-cj-]

Hey guys, it was a great meet!

I got 252 whp / 269 wtq (stock). Can't wait to get my AP!

[WhiteSpeed3]

lol good job for stock and just a note to all that had the AP and were running the stag 3 tune take it off as soon as u can cuz thats why all the cars were not reading properly.

all the cars there without the AP (golf, prelude, stock ms3, and alhope34 running stag2) had no probs then once most people left pissed off fobio's car went back on the dyno and wasnt reading and smoking like crazy, then i had the crazy idea that it was the AP screwing everying up and fobio unmarried his car and put it back to the stock tune and what do u think happened... the dyno had no prob reading it and im not sure why but no smoke at all coming out the tailpipe

so my verdict still stays the same as i'v always thought the AP is not ready yet for these car, it might just be the stag3 maps cuz as i said alhope34 had no prob and im pretty sure he sad he was running the stag2 map

COBB has some explaining to do IMO

[Fobio]

hey guys...it was nice seeing everyone after these months. =)

yeah, Cobb cars had a rough day today, but before releasing my findings, it is important to note the following for now:

1. The smoking issue may be attributed to a new oil change with TOPPED up oil. I can attest that the smoking stopped after the first few runs AND before I unmarried the AP. So the smoking issue COULD be a little extra oil and not the AP. I will investigate by re-installing the AP later this week.

2. The car and other AP cars RAN FINE at Redline Performance in Aug '08, with a similar map. My car also didn't stutter or smoke at Redline last yr with the configuration. So I want to say that before I make any conclusions about what happened today. Also, another MS3 w/ AP that I KNOW OF dyno'd on a Mustang dyno and it was fine. (My theory so far is that THIS dyno has a very low knock tolerance, which other dynos may. But I'm no dyno expert....)

3. I will be contacting Cobb to sort out this issue. I will report back in a MS3-specific thread. Let's not start ANY Cobb bashing for now, because if I need their help, the last thing I need is my compatriates putting us in a bad position.

4. A stock MS3 pulled 231whp and 250whp with ice on intercooler...so there's lotsa potential everywhere!!!

my car's running fine btw...I have no concern about it at all... :bana2

on another note...I have bigger fish to fry at the moment rather than my own car (those who were present today know what's up...) so this Cobb issue, is not a real priority for me whatsoever for now. The car is running fine...and for now, it's a case of ONE particular dyno not liking ONE Cobb map...

And tmr's Monday...:bang

[alhope34]

I don't understand how the AP could be making everyone slow. And there are no stage 3 maps for the AP, just stage 2. My car definitely feels a heck of a lot faster with the ap tune on it.

[mleblond]

lol it's not cobb fault the dyno couldn't read the car. And Stage 3 doesn't exist on the AP.

IMO the dyno is not tune properly and the dude needs to call dynojet to help him with that.

So in the end it was a waste of time, gas and money but it was nice to see you all :)

[alhope34]

Mat, what numbers did you get? How would the dyno have problems only with the AP tuned cars?

[-cj-]

What if it isn't the dyno but the tune? Some of the cars didn't sound right... We all assumed it was hardware related, but what if it was the AP map?

Al, I was just noticing that your wtq is less than your hp. Something is clearly wrong, it could be the dyno or your tune...

Fobio mentioned the cars ran normally when uninstalling the AP, did anyone try another tune instead?

[asylum]

lol it's not cobb fault the dyno couldn't read the car. And Stage 3 doesn't exist on the AP.

IMO the dyno is not tune properly and the dude needs to call dynojet to help him with that.

So in the end it was a waste of time, gas and money but it was nice to see you all :)


lol it's not cobb fault the dyno couldn't read the car. And Stage 3 doesn't exist on the AP.

IMO the dyno is not tune properly and the dude needs to call dynojet to help him with that.

So in the end it was a waste of time, gas and money but it was nice to see you all :)


This is Mario from K&H. I registered only to respond after reading this post. First off, there is no way to "tune" the dyno. There is nothing wrong with the dyno which was proved by having the golf and prelude on there. There is simply something for whatever reason it may be, that is throwing the dyno off on all the cars with the accessport installed. If there was something wrong with the dyno, then explain to me why it is possible for the fobio's car to run fine on the dyno once the accessport was unmarried from his car? Once the accessport was unmarried, Fobio's car did 3 back to back pulls without incident.

And Matt, How could you say it was a waste of time, gas and money when you refused to pay for your dyno time. We had your car on the dyno for about an hour. Dyno days are not meant to figure out problems. Usually a dyno day consists of 2-3 pulls and if there are problems what so ever, the car comes off and the next one goes on but your car was on there for about an hour while we tried to get a proper reading. Same thing with Sean's car. After he had that issue with the hose coming loose, we could have said too bad and told him to get the car off the dyno. Instead, we had his car on the dyno for over an hour while Richard helped to solve his problem. That is not how dyno days work. Like I said usually a dyno day consists of 2-3 pulls and if there are problems what so ever, the car comes off and the next one goes on. We did this only because we wanted to help you guys out. Right after your car came off the dyno, the prelude went on and did 3 back to back pulls with a slight pause between runs while Richard played with the vtec controller.

[asylum]

4. A stock MS3 pulled 231whp and 250whp with ice on intercooler...so there's lotsa potential everywhere!!!


Seeing as that car made 231whp and then over 250whp with the snow on the intercooler, how is the dyno not " tuned" right as Matt put it? That puts it at about 265hp@the crank. Isnt that what its supped to run? Why didnt that car have a problem while on the dyno?

[asylum]

Seeing as that car made 231whp and then over 250whp with the snow on the intercooler, how is the dyno not " tuned" right as Matt put it? That puts it at about 265hp@the crank. Isnt that what its supped to run? Why didnt that car have a problem while on the dyno?

just to add to that, then why didnt Fobio's car have a problem once the accessport was unmarried?

[alhope34]

I still think the problem is with the AP maps. Maybe I'll try to unmarry it and see how it acts but when I first installed the AP with v102 maps there was a huge power difference.

[Donutz]

Too bad I missed it today. Hopefully closer to the summer we can put together another gathering for a dyno day.

[asylum]

I still think the problem is with the AP maps. Maybe I'll try to unmarry it and see how it acts but when I first installed the AP with v102 maps there was a huge power difference.


We arent saying that the AP isnt making power. It could be that on the street there isnt a problem or the problem is there but isnt noticable on the street. What we are saying is for whatever reason, there was a problem picking up a signal from the car equipped with it. Although Sean's car had a detonation problem regardless if there was a problem lossing signal or not, he still wouldnt have made the power he should have because the ECU would try to retard timing once it sees knock

[alhope34]

We arent saying that the AP isnt making power. It could be that on the street there isnt a problem or the problem is there but isnt noticable on the street. What we are saying is for whatever reason, there was a problem picking up a signal from the car equipped with it. Although Sean's car had a detonation problem regardless if there was a problem lossing signal or not, he still wouldnt have made the power he should have because the ECU would try to retard timing once it sees knock

But doesn't the dyno read whatever is given to it through the rollers? The way I always thought about it was that the parts in the car doesn't matter, the dyno will just read the torque/power given to it through the roller.

[asylum]

But doesn't the dyno read whatever is given to it through the rollers? The way I always thought about it was that the parts in the car doesn't matter, the dyno will just read the torque/power given to it through the roller.

yes and no. The dyno CAN give you a hp reading without a tach signal but wont give a tq number without a proper signal

[alhope34]

Hmm. I never knew that. I wouldn't mind putting the stock tune back on for a week or so and going back for another reading. I should have been able to hit 280 whp and 290 wtq with the stock tune. I could also try converting my intake back to SRI.

I'm just curious, but what was Fobio's second set of readings with the AP and then with the stock tune?

[Fobio]

Mario...thanks for your response. No doubt there were cars that ran fine on your Dyno, including alhope34 who was ON AN AP TUNE. Given that the stock MS3 ran fine AND alhope34's AP-tuned car also ran fine, I am wondering if there's anything else amiss.

Like Cobb, I'm willing to work with you guys on this. The patience you have shown Mat and my car shows that we all wanted this to work out, not just for our cars but also for your new dyno.

Having said that, can you speak on why we (Big Dad and I) both ran fine on a Dynojet @ Redline performance on a similar AP tune?

I'm definitely open to the notion that these OTS maps isn't agreeing with the recent cold enough weather to properly increase boost.

[alhope34]

Mario...thanks for your response. No doubt there were cars that ran fine on your Dyno, including alhope34 who was ON AN AP TUNE. Given that the stock MS3 ran fine AND alhope34's AP-tuned car also ran fine, I am wondering if there's anything else amiss.

Like Cobb, I'm willing to work with you guys on this. The patience you have shown Mat and my car shows that we all wanted this to work out, not just for our cars but also for your new dyno.

Having said that, can you speak on why we (Big Dad and I) both ran fine on a Dynojet @ Redline performance on a similar AP tune?

I'm definitely open to the notion that these OTS maps isn't agree with the recent cold enough weather to increase boost.

Lol, my car didn't run fine. I pinged like crazy my first 1/2 run, and I only got 281 whp and 272 wtq on my best run ( 202 whp and 284 wtq on the ping'd run). Tq should not be lower than hp with our engine, and I should be able to hit at least 270 whp without a tune.

[Fobio]

there are so many variances, and with all that has happened today, I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around it....from the new spark plugs and confirmed high oil fill, to the smoke and today's fumes-fills dyno session, I don't know how to pinpoint the factors that caused my car to not run well today @ K&H.

To be honest, I haven't beaten up on the car for a very very long time considering our weather...so even tho I paid Mario good money to prove that it was the AP flash that caused his dyno to pick up signals by running a stock tune, it didn't really solve or clear up the fact that HIS dyno didn't read THIS AP Tune while Redline read it no problem last yr...I made 261whp/270wtq, stock flash WITHOUT having time for the ECU to relearn. And I made 271whp/277wtq @ Redline with a 1.03 map that was HOT.

http://www.torontomazda3.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=27936

[mleblond]

Mario, Im not bashing you directly, I appreciate the help. You tried but it failed. The fact is, I dynoed in october with the same setup and map at the mustang dyno in ottawa KVR. No problem what so ever.

When I come down from kingston to pay for a reading and your machine fails to read the car properly I don't expect to pay. You spent over an hour trying to figure it out and never figured it out. Sure the unmarry the ap worked for Fobio but I don't get the point to travel down and un-tune the car for a dyno?

In the end I would suggest reading up on it or talking to dynojet (you should have support available,no?) because you never know when it will happen again. maybe there's a patch out already even tho it's new? It's simple because your losing money when the machine dont work. (maybe it doesnt like fast mazda's as it didnt like the speed 6 either, remember?)

[icecubetray]

yes and no. The dyno CAN give you a hp reading without a tach signal but wont give a tq number without a proper signal

All the dynos I have worked on and with have torque meters........and hence measure HP and Torque independant of any vehicle parameters.

Then only reason to hook up the vehicle in the first place is to match HP to RPM and tq to RPM of the car engine so that it can be graphed....

you can run a dyno without a vehicle and measure torque.....as the drum has a certain inertia that the dyno has to overcome to bring the drum to speed when motoring the drum.....and a dyno is essentially just a big motor....that provides an opposing force to the vehicle.....via the drum

Torque is a rotational force......and the torque meter on the dyno can be calibrated by applying a known force to the drum....Calibration typically happens on a yearly basis.

HP = (force x distance)/time
I'm not totally sure how the calculations are done but its likely related to the torque or motor force, and feedback from the encoder to calculate HP

If there are issues with any of the equipment above then you can have flaky results.

That being said if the results are consistent among all cars but are skewed high or low it may just be a calibration issue.....

[asylum]

Mario, Im not bashing you directly, I appreciate the help. You tried but it failed. The fact is, I dynoed in october with the same setup and map at the mustang dyno in ottawa KVR. No problem what so ever.

When I come down from kingston to pay for a reading and your machine fails to read the car properly I don't expect to pay. You spent over an hour trying to figure it out and never figured it out. Sure the unmarry the ap worked for Fobio but I don't get the point to travel down and un-tune the car for a dyno?

In the end I would suggest reading up on it or talking to dynojet (you should have support available,no?) because you never know when it will happen again. maybe there's a patch out already even tho it's new? It's simple because your losing money when the machine dont work. (maybe it doesnt like fast mazda's as it didnt like the speed 6 either, remember?)

I'll comment on the speed 6 issue first. That was actually on a different dyno since the speed 6 is AWD and my dyno is 2wd only. That car didnt read properly on that dyno either but other that that I cant say anything else as I wasnt there for to see it.

The reason we felt that it was the AP that was causing the issue for whatever reason is that we didnt have the problem with the stock speed 3 or Fobio's car after he went back to stock mode. Its not like the dyno knows if the car is stock or modded or if the car is running AP or not. Sometimes you have to start with the basics. I can understand the arguement the the prelude and the golf that ran fine today are both different than the speed 3's i.e. direct injection etc. But Why did the stock car run fine?

[asylum]

Then only reason to hook up the vehicle in the first place is to match HP to RPM and tq to RPM of the car engine so that it can be graphed....

you can run a dyno without a vehicle and measure torque.....as the drum has a certain inertia that the dyno has to overcome to bring the drum to speed when motoring the drum.....and a dyno is essentially just a big motor....that provides an opposing force to the vehicle.....via the drum

Torque is a rotational force......and the torque meter on the dyno can be calibrated by applying a known force to the drum....Calibration typically happens on a yearly basis.

HP = (force x distance)/time
I'm not totally sure how the calculations are done but its likely related to the torque or motor force, and feedback from the encoder to calculate HP

If there are issues with any of the equipment above then you can have flaky results.

That being said if the results are consistent among all cars but are skewed high or low it may just be a calibration issue.....

The dynojet are calibrated from the factory and if you call dynojet directly they will tell you that they are factory calibrated and not calibrated by the operator. And no, you need the tach signal to read torque on the dyno jet.

Heres a quote from the dynojet website stating what I just mentioned above:

"The unit is a durable, factory calibrated dynamometer that requires little maintenance and no calibration."

[Fobio]

Mario, as it stands now, my focus is also in finding out why a stock tuned car ran fine and a AP tuned can't give you a tach signal. I think that is the point of contention at this moment and it's NOT just about Cobb's tune or your dyno calibration. I just wondered whether the dyno software has a tolerance for "phantom" knock that can be adjusted so it can get a clean tach reading...as obvious on my run to your shop w/ an AP tune and an married stock tune, there's nothing mechanically wrong with the car.

[asylum]

To be honest, I haven't beaten up on the car for a very very long time considering our weather...so even tho I paid Mario good money to prove that it was the AP flash that caused his dyno to pick up signals by running a stock tune, it didn't really solve or clear up the fact that HIS dyno didn't read THIS AP Tune while Redline read it no problem last yr...I made 261whp/270wtq, stock flash WITHOUT having time for the ECU to relearn. And I made 271whp/277wtq @ Redline with a 1.03 map that was HOT.

http://www.torontomazda3.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=27936


As to why Redlines dyno didnt have a problem picking up the signal, I cant comment on that other than to say different day/different dyno. Did you dyno the car at redline in the summer or the winter. Its possible that the winter gas that is available at this time of year doesnt agree with the tune/setup of these cars. There are too many variable when it comes to comparing dyno result from different dynos on different days.

[asylum]

Mario, as it stands now, my focus is also in finding out why a stock tuned car ran fine and a AP tuned can't give you a tach signal. I think that is the point of contention at this moment and it's about Cobb's tune or your dyno calibration. I just wondered whether the dyno software has a tolerance for "phantom" knock that can be adjusted so it can get a clean tach reading...as obvious on my run to your shop w/ an AP tune and an married stock tune, there's nothing mechanically wrong with the car.

I think this is a question for Cobb to answer because there is no calibration to change as far as the dynojet is concerned. As the dynojet website states, the dynos are factory calibrated and require little maintenance and no calibration.

What leads me to believe that SOMEHOW the AP is causing havoc with the readings is that without the tune your car ran fine on the dyno and the stock car ran fine also while every other car running the AP had issues. If there was a problem with the dyno, it would not read the "stock" cars either

[Fobio]

Here's a thread I have posted on a more enthusiast-oriented forum with a larger Cobb AP user group.

http://www.mazdaspeedforums.org/forum/cobb-access-port/21850-canada-dyno-day-1-03-maps.html

I really want to point out that I don't want to point the finger at anyone at the moment. K&H's dyno obviously works, and we've also dyno'd very successfully with Cobb AP tunes on other dyno's...so at this point, jury's still out.

Thanks for checking out our forum Mario!

[WhiteSpeed3]

al what map were u running?

[-cj-]

Not to change the topic, but here's the FMIC which creates a CAI/Ram Air out of your TMIC location:

Pics:http://corksport.com/store/large/21z9n/MS3_Engine/CorkSport_Power_Series_Mazdaspeed_3_Front_Mount_In tercooler_Kit.html

Link:http://corksport.com/store/category/buir/MS3_Engine.html

Haven't seen any benchmarks though...

[-cj-]

http://corksport.com/store/image/21z9n/MS3_Engine_CorkSport_Power_Series_Mazdaspeed_3_Fro nt_Mount_Intercooler_Kit.jpg

[-cj-]

(We were talking about this IC at the meet today..)

[alhope34]

al what map were u running?

stage 2+SF 93 v103

[WhiteSpeed3]

and everyone else? what maps were the guys having problems running

[Fobio]

1.03 Stg1+ SF 91 OTS map

[Fobio]

It seems like we're not the only ones having a probelm with an AP tuned car and certain Dynojet's not picking up tach signal clearly.

http://www.mazdaspeedforums.org/forum/mazdaspeed-3-6-dyno-sheets-discussions/21458-dynojet-rpm-pick-up.html

[gtp_gottopee]

hey guys its Richard,
just joined your forums because i want to help figure out the problem.

on the black MS3 i've tried to read the tach from every possible wire, off the coils, off the tach wire from the fuse box, and even the harness after the coils running towards the computer and they all did the same thing.

hmmmm...:pop

[SurgeLine Tuning]

Was the traction control on or OFF in the tested cars?

wheel slip will activate the traction control in these cars.... traction control= active ignition timing, boost control, fueling...... a lot of wheel slip would make a dyno run look pretty bad.

Cobb tune = extra power = too little traction = traction control activated and run looks terrible

Stock tune = less power = sufficient traction =

This idea does not rule out other possibilities

Regards
Tim

[alhope34]

All traction controls were off. It didn't seem like there was any wheel slip. Didn't sound of any slip and the dyno charts never showed any.

[asylum]

Was the traction control on or OFF in the tested cars?

wheel slip will activate the traction control in these cars.... traction control= active ignition timing, boost control, fueling...... a lot of wheel slip would make a dyno run look pretty bad.

Cobb tune = extra power = too little traction = traction control activated and run looks terrible

Stock tune = less power = sufficient traction =

This idea does not rule out other possibilities

Regards
Tim

Traction control was obviously off.

[Christian.]

Fabio,

I am happy discuss any ideas with you. With an increase in power (cylinder pressure), an engine will generate more interference. This can be what is creating the issues with the dyno's inductive pickup of your RPM signal.

As far as the detonation on the dyno versus on the street. The MS TMIC is not very effective if you do not have sufficient airflow going through the intercooler core. Do you have a picture of the dyno's fans while testing Mazdaspeeds? My guess is that the intercooler (TMIC or FMIC) is receiving sufficient airflow while running on the street and insufficient airflow on the chassis dyno. This can cause multiple issues with your vehicle. The MS ECU changes ECU logic based on several variables including Boost Air Temp (BAT). Regardless, I am here to assist you or address any concerns you may have. You are welcome to e-mail me if you prefer, christian.krahenbuhl@cobbtuning.com

Take care,
Christian.

[asylum]

Fabio,

I am happy discuss any ideas with you. With an increase in power (cylinder pressure), an engine will generate more interference. This can be what is creating the issues with the dyno's inductive pickup of your RPM signal.

As far as the detonation on the dyno versus on the street. The MS TMIC is not very effective if you do not have sufficient airflow going through the intercooler core. Do you have a picture of the dyno's fans while testing Mazdaspeeds? My guess is that the intercooler (TMIC or FMIC) is receiving sufficient airflow while running on the street and insufficient airflow on the chassis dyno. This can cause multiple issues with your vehicle. The MS ECU changes ECU logic based on several variables including Boost Air Temp (BAT). Regardless, I am here to assist you or address any concerns you may have. You are welcome to e-mail me if you prefer, christian.krahenbuhl@cobbtuning.com

Take care,
Christian.


Can you explain to us why there is interference generated with an increase in power (cylinder pressure), to the point where it is interfering with the signal on the dyno?

And as far as your theory about the lack of airflow to the top mount intercooler goes, I dont think in this case this would be an issue as a few of the guys grabbed hand fulls of snow and placed it on the intercooler when the cars that had problems were on the dyno.

[MajesticBlueNTO]

Can you explain to us why there is interference generated with an increase in power (cylinder pressure), to the point where it is interfering with the signal on the dyno?



pretty interesting... (http://www.land-and-sea.com/dyno-tech-talk/rfi-troubelshooting.htm)



Electromagnetic Radio Frequency Interference (EMI or RFI) from the test engine’s ignition can be a major problem when trying to capture data via sensitive electronic instrument running adjacent to a high compression spark-ignition engine. EMI symptoms include bad dyno tach readings, erratic servo operation, Personal Computer lock-up, and holes or spikes in the captured data.

Interference worsens as the engine’s throttle is opened - this is due to the rise in spark voltage that accompanies any increase in cylinder pressure. Supercharging, turbocharging, and many race modifications that increase cylinder charging drive up ignition energy demands, often creating severe interference problems. As RPM increases (raising the EMI/RFI frequency) the number of interfering "pulses" generated goes up proportionally. The worst conditions often occur right around peak torque output (both cylinder pressures and RPMs are high) and the resulting EMI is often known to crash (blue screen) even a high quality PC running nearby.

[-cj-]

Great link. Has a lot of suggestions on how to shield the dyno from EMI....

[asylum]

pretty interesting... (http://www.land-and-sea.com/dyno-tech-talk/rfi-troubelshooting.htm)

thats some great info. Thanks MajesticBlueNTO. However, we have had many cars with double or even triple the hp the cars that were at the dyno day run fine on the dyno. Why has this problem only surfaced on the mazdaspeed 3's and not on others?

[gtp_gottopee]

pretty interesting... (http://www.land-and-sea.com/dyno-tech-talk/rfi-troubelshooting.htm)

hmmm...im lost..
so a MS3 with AP is more of a high compression spark-ignition engine then a 450WHP 2.0t BT audi A3? since that car reads no problem on the dyno
simlar engine because they are both direct injection

[-cj-]

BTW anyone post up any pics or videos from the dyno meet? I'd like to see pics of the botched AP runs as well and what maps people were using... Was anyone running a stage1 stock or CAI map and having trouble?

[Fobio]

hey cj...why don't you post up your dyno sheet so we can have a look at a baseline.

[-cj-]

Completely stock, MS3 2008.5
http://clubnet.org/~clave/MS3_Dyno2009.jpg

1st run: Hood open, nothing special
2nd run: Ice on intercooler
3rd run: Ice on intercooler, hood closed

[-cj-]

I really gotta learn to resize stuff...

[Fobio]

Ok so an updae:

I haven't had time to follow-up with Christian@Cobb yet. I did however, updated my AP/dongle firmware and reinstalled 1.03. No smoke, car runs great.

I want to sort this out with both Cobb and K&H and go back for another try. Next time i should be running Stg2+ and expecting good numbers. Stay tuned...so to speak.

[WhiteSpeed3]

hopefully we can do another dyno day when i got my car out of storage i wanna see how i stack up against the cobb tunned cars out there

[alhope34]

Ok so an updae:

I haven't had time to follow-up with Christian@Cobb yet. I did however, updated my AP/dongle firmware and reinstalled 1.03. No smoke, car runs great.

I want to sort this out with both Cobb and K&H and go back for another try. Next time i should be running Stg2+ and expecting good numbers. Stay tuned...so to speak.

Tell me when you're going back, I probably will too. Any idea when you'll be going?

[Fobio]

I've sent Christian an email last night and will be calling Mario this week. Hopefully, we can narrow down the RPM pick-up issue shortly. Once that is solved, then I'll make arrangements with Mario. Will keep you posted.

[ThucP]

over at vwvortex they are having a dyno day dunno if it's just for vw's but heres the link http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=4279542

Same place but now with time slots

[asylum]

over at vwvortex they are having a dyno day dunno if it's just for vw's but heres the link http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=4279542

Same place but now with time slots

no its not only for vw's. Either you can PM to book a time to come that day or we can set up another day for the mazdas only once this issue is resolved.

As far as the time slots go, thats how we usually do it. The mazda day was the only time we didnt do the time slot thing.

[alhope34]

Does anyone know yet what the problem was that day? I really want to go back for another 3 runs.

[asylum]

6 spots left on the dyno day on march 29 for anyone thats interested

[Fobio]

Thanks for the heads up mario. I've sent Christian an email and haven't heard back yet. I'll call you as soon as I can, as I'm in quebec city now.

[alhope34]

I'm in quebec city now.

Lucky b$%$##d!! I miss driving through there, it's so pretty, especially at night. I absolutely love entering the city at night when you're at the top of the huge hill you can see the whole city in lights. It's amazing.

[Fobio]

Here's a reply I got from Christian today:


Vincent,

Gary asked me to try to help you with your understanding of these issues. I am busy with some other projects, but I will do my best to help you out with these dyno issues.

The first link below does not work, FYI. The two other links are working fine. From what I can tell, your vehicle is most likely producing excess EMI noise or the dyno is not protecting the inductive signal from excess EMI noise. We have tuned three MS3s this last week on our dyno without issue. Although, we did not use an RPM pick-up for the equipment to pick up these inductive RPM signals because they are inconsistent. Is it possible for this dyno to calculate RPM via a wheel speed conversion? If so, I suggest you try this.

Have you tried running the v101 or v102 maps to see if the issue is map specific? Some additional testing will be necessary in order to track down this issue. I highly doubt this is an issue created by an AccessPORT calibration, but I am willing to do what I can to assist you.

Take care,
Christian.


Mario...can you please comment on this? The server upgrade might be causing problems for them to access TM3, so I'll be patient on this.

[asylum]

Mario...can you please comment on this? The server upgrade might be causing problems for them to access TM3, so I'll be patient on this.


I see that even they have problems reading it with the RPM pickup. We can try the optical pickup like we do with diesel cars and see how that is as well as trying another version of the software for the accessport.

[Fobio]

Thanks for your reply Mario. I will be there on the 29th to sort it all out. Anyone's who's interested in coming out, lemme know.

[alhope34]

I might stop by to watch. What time will you be there?

[Fobio]

late...I offered to be last car of the day so I don't hold anyone up...gonna miss the Simpsons, but I'll pvr it... ;)

[alhope34]

late...I offered to be last car of the day so I don't hold anyone up...gonna miss the Simpsons, but I'll pvr it... ;)

What time is late? lol.

[Fobio]

he said 6.45 is the last car right now...so I'll be there a little before that.

[WhiteSpeed3]

i'll be in the area that day so i might stop by

[-cj-]

I'm interested in dropping by. I'd like to see the difference between v103 stock and v103 stock 93 octane maps I'm running vs the completely stock I ran last month. I'm going to be on a tight schedule tho, I can spend like 1 hr there I think... How do I schedule a slot so I can just show up and do a few runs and stick around to shoot the shit for a bit?

I get my car back this Tuesday, pretty excited...

[Thrizzl3]

holy jerry its been that long since you sent it in for repair?

[-cj-]

Yeah man :( I sent it in two Mondays ago... Took a while. The shop used completely new parts, new door shell, new side moldings, new black tape that goes on the window frame (always thought it was paint) etc etc. Can't wait to see it... Hope there are no interior rattling noises now...

[asylum]

I'm interested in dropping by. I'd like to see the difference between v103 stock and v103 stock 93 octane maps I'm running vs the completely stock I ran last month. I'm going to be on a tight schedule tho, I can spend like 1 hr there I think... How do I schedule a slot so I can just show up and do a few runs and stick around to shoot the shit for a bit?

I get my car back this Tuesday, pretty excited...


we do have 4:00 and 5:15 slots available. However, unlike the dyno day we had with you guys last month, on this dyno day there is a schedule to stick to. If you schedule either of those remaining 2 slots, We will try to read your car with the optical pickup instead of the rpm pickup but once you are on the dyno, you basically have a half hour to get your runs in. If there are issues reading the car and your half an hour is up, you are off and the next cars goes on. And unlike the last dyno day, payment must be made upfront before your runs start. The one guy that refused to pay last time ruined it for everyone. I dont think there will be an issue reading the car with the optical pick up but unfortunately, since it is a dyno day, those are the rules and they need to be adhered to in order to have a smooth running day. So CJ, if you still want to run your car that day, let me know if either of those 2 time slots are good for you.

[asylum]

down to one last spot at 5:15pm for this sunday's dyno day if anyone is interested.

[asylum]

this sundays dyno day is now fully booked.

[-cj-]

Damnit, I've been caught up these last few days and never got around to following up on this thread...

Ah well, at least we'll know for next time if the optical pick up works. How do you hook it up? What's different between the two methods?

[Fobio]

come chk out what Mario does during my runs and we'll arrange for another AP/MS3 day with him.

[mleblond]

you think they figured it out?

[Fobio]

I'm gonna go and give it a try...taking one for the team, so to speak.

[mleblond]

I'm gonna go and give it a try...taking one for the team, so to speak.
thats gay dude, don't waste your money, go back to the other dyno that worked and your problem is solved.

Ill take your money and draw you a graph in ms paint, are you that desperate?

p.s. if you do go, update you ap first, there was a new update not too long ago.

[Fobio]

hehe...I've already gotten a graph with pretty colours on it already...and I really don't care about that. and in fact, i don't think there's anything wrong with the car to work out either.

redline performance is the other place I went to that read fine, but I tend to think Mario may work with us in the long term.

keeping options open that's all. guess I should work out the cost of doing so with mario before doing this...since I really feel I'm doing K&H and Cobb a favour by validating their equipment isn't @ fault.

[mleblond]

hehe...I've already gotten a graph with pretty colours on it already...and I really don't care about that. and in fact, i don't think there's anything wrong with the car to work out either.

redline performance is the other place I went to that read fine, but I tend to think Mario may work with us in the long term.

keeping options open that's all. guess I should work out the cost of doing so with mario before doing this...since I really feel I'm doing K&H and Cobb a favour by validating their equipment isn't @ fault.

well get them to pay to beat on your car then...

[asylum]

hehe...I've already gotten a graph with pretty colours on it already...and I really don't care about that. and in fact, i don't think there's anything wrong with the car to work out either.

redline performance is the other place I went to that read fine, but I tend to think Mario may work with us in the long term.

keeping options open that's all. guess I should work out the cost of doing so with mario before doing this...since I really feel I'm doing K&H and Cobb a favour by validating their equipment isn't @ fault.

as far as there being anything wrong with the car, I cant explain why the car was smoking like crazy when the cobb accessport was being used and an rpm signal couldnt be read but when the car was using the stock file, no smoke and the rpms were able to be read without problem. And the stock car that we dyno'd that day didnt have a problem either. I have no explaination for this. Why is there no problem picking up the signal from a stock car but there is with the accessport hooked up?

So yes I am willing to work with you guys on this so we can figure out what the problem is. As I have mentioned before, usually a dyno day has scheduled time slots. If any of you have looked at the link that was provided for this weekends dyno day, you can see that. That is how we usually run our dyno days. With the dyno day that we had with you guys we didnt do that. We also didnt stick to our dyno day "rules" where if the car has problems or we have any problems at all, after a few runs the car is off and the next car is on. We didnt do that with you guys. We had a few of the cars on for almost an hour or more. Why? Because we are reasonable and try to work with our customers. We were there longer than a usually dyno day with a third of the amount of cars that would be there on a dyno day.

When the dyno day was first booked, we were told that there would be about 10 cars. In the end, there were only 5 Mazdas and two other cars that we booked in on our own in order to fill in some space. . We usually would not do a dyno day for 5 cars for that price and also include the wideband. We offered that price based on 10 cars not 5 but we stuck to our word.

As far as to why the cars were able to read fine at Redline and not on our dyno. I cant explain that either but I do remember being told that when the cars were at Redline, they were using a different file. This is why we are willing to work with Fobio this weekend to see why there was an issue.

[asylum]

well get them to pay to beat on your car then...


Im sorry you werent satisfied with the last dyno day. However, you are making it out to sound like we are out to rip you guys off. Like I said in my other response, if we were simply trying to rip you guys off, we wouldnt have had cars on the dyno that day for more than just 2-3 runs. A few of the cars were on for an hour or more at a cost of only $50.

And as far as your comment about getting us to pay to beat on fobios car goes, there really isnt any excitement when it comes to running a car on the dyno. For us, its just another tool that we use at work.

[mleblond]

Im sorry you werent satisfied with the last dyno day. However, you are making it out to sound like we are out to rip you guys off. Like I said in my other response, if we were simply trying to rip you guys off, we wouldnt have had cars on the dyno that day for more than just 2-3 runs. A few of the cars were on for an hour or more at a cost of only $50.

And as far as your comment about getting us to pay to beat on fobios car goes, there really isnt any excitement when it comes to running a car on the dyno. For us, its just another tool that we use at work.


I totally agree with both comments. I know your not trying to rip anyone off here. It's just your dyno doesn't work with cobb's AP. Big deal, just tell your customers if your cobb tuned then don't come here. Basically my comment was more towards FOBIO. Wasting his money trying to help when nothing has changed from the last time (correct me if im wrong).

A dyno means nothing, the other time was to get numbers to compare between friends that showed up. But we couldn't get a proper reading because of the cobb tune. So it's only normal to go somewhere that has a working dynofor the cobb AP.

Don't get me wrong, you guys are a good bunch :) I would just be complaining to Dynojet. Because your competitors didn't have any problems...

[Fobio]

I tend to think Mario is interested in and would want to get his dyno to work with Cobb AP MS3's. They are a respected shop locally, so the numbers we can get from them can be trusted once we get it going.

I'm taking one for the team because only I got good numbers at Redline, and since dyno'ing on my own against a bunch of Preludes isn't what I'm looking to do, so I think K&H will be a good dyno to go to. Of course, this is given we sort this thing out...I have 2 maps to test and we can start/end with a stock OEM unmarried from the AP.

Mat...I'm patient...I ask that you be too. I really think good will come out of my time, otherwise I wouldn't waste it the way I've been doing... =)

btw...I don't plan to be a dyno monster...the goal is to find a good and patient tuner with a trusted reputable machine that we can eventually go with AcceesTuner Race to test and tune our AP MS3 @ a good price.

[mleblond]

lol I am patient but losing my time coming from kingston is balancing my decision to go somewhere where it works.

EDIT: Remember the dyno date was picked so I could attend....

[asylum]

well, we are going to try a few different things on sunday and hopefully we have it sorted out.

[Fobio]

all went as I hoped today. I arrived near end of day with whitespeed3 and alhope there already. After a short chat and catch up with the boys, I get strapped up. Plan for the day:

1. Run on 1.03r.
2. Run on 1.03 OTS
3. Run on stock if necessary.

Nothing's different with the car...I got the Medieval passenger mount taken out and got the stock one back on. Been running 1.03r for 1 week...filled up with 94 the day before.

First blast with 1.03r...no problem...better results than expected. No hic-cups what-so-ever.

Second blast with 1.03 OTS...no problems...lower results as expected with new flashed map...whatever...

Third blast with 1.03 OTS...same results.

Also got to meet K&H's VW tuner and spoke with him about our platform and issues. He seems to be interested and we were able to connect quickly about ATP/ATR tuning. Hopefully, we'll make some headway here.

Conclusion...eventhough we were not able to isolate the particular issue causing the 1.03 OTS map to not read due to EMI vs. a stock MS3 running fine on last time, to this time having no issue on my car (being the only car I can personally verify as being in perfect running condition) whatsoever...I can safely say that I will be booking another session with K&H once we have the ATP/ATR issue worked out.

Mario's a good guy...his tuner is knowledgeable. This is a resource we can all work with down the road. Pls look in the dyno section for results.

CJ...chk my results to what you can look forward to my friend. =)

[WhiteSpeed3]

im still a little confused cuz that map ran with no problems today but there just that little hic-cup on that 1 run with the ots map what i wanna know is why did the beta map run better then the ots map, maybe cuz it could be a safer tune i dont know.

im still up in the air on this one maybe when i get my car out of storage i can get it dyno'd and see the difference between my stock tune compared to u guys with the AP

[Fobio]

I will continue talking to Mario and his tuner prior to our next dyno day. I look forward to seeing you and your ride Vince!

If no body knew...they'd think we're all a bunch of Italians...me included...

[WhiteSpeed3]

ya i got to talk to u about the next dyno day to see if we can work something out

[-cj-]

So when's the next dyno day guys? ;) Someone (other than me ;) should organize one... I feel like hitting the dyno this weekend...

[WhiteSpeed3]

im in for a dyno for sure