Unlicensed mechanics working on cars at dealerships

[sip]

The dealership where I got my power steering recall done says it is the normal practice in dealerships to have unlicensed apprentices to work on cars as long as they are supervised by an licensed mechanic. Can the members in the industry confirm that this is the normal practice?

When I pointed out that the apprentice was working without supervision, I was told that he has lot of experience, very capable, and the dealership takes responsibility for the work done. To the dealer's credit, the dealer's representative stopped the apprentice working on the car (although it was little too late) and assured me that only a licensed mechanic would work on my car in the future.

The dealer's view is that this is the only way for an apprentice get experience. Although it is understandable, I felt uncomfortable when I saw unlicensed tech. removing the power steering pump assembly and repairing it to get it ready for a licensed mechanic to install.

I guess the bottom line is we really do not know who would work on our cars. Is it unrealistic to expect only qualified professionals to work on major repairs (given that customers pay around $100 hour for out of warranty work)?

Another issue that concerns me was that actual work was done in an hour although the service rep. initially told me that it takes two and a half hours to do the work and later told me it would take even more time, as I want only a licensed mechanic to work on the car. Is an hour enough to flush the fluid lines and do the power steering recall repair?

[sol_searchin]

I think your more paranoid than anything, and yes to your last question.

[bubba1983]

As an apprentice myself, albeit in the heavy truck industry and not automotive. **** you. How the hell do you expect us to gain experience and knowledge in the field without hands on. Most, not all but most licensed mechanics now a days (baby boomers) didn't go through the amount of schooling that we currentlyt go through. How does that make you feel now? The ****ing ignorance that I hear towards this trade makes me want to punch all of you in the faces. So in heinsight if all you want is licensed tecs to work on your car. Where the **** will you get these tecs without going thru the apprenticeship program. Its a red seal trade restricted to licensed tecs and apprentice's only. The passing grade which we have to maintain in school is at a high level. The amount on information which we have to know and retain and to keep up with is a huge task in itself. To hear bullshit like this makes me so ****ing angry.
Ill leave it to the other 310a apprentices on here to chew you a new ******* now.

[aris]

Bubba my brother is in the same trade as you ... He been in the trade for 12 years

[Mitchell3]

An hour really? I was told they can do it in half a day, but would like to have the car for almost a full day.. good ol' Geulph City Mazda..

[DumpInfo]

As an apprentice myself, albeit in the heavy truck industry and not automotive. **** you. How the hell do you expect us to gain experience and knowledge in the field without hands on. Most, not all but most licensed mechanics now a days (baby boomers) didn't go through the amount of schooling that we currentlyt go through. How does that make you feel now? The ****ing ignorance that I hear towards this trade makes me want to punch all of you in the faces. So in heinsight if all you want is licensed tecs to work on your car. Where the **** will you get these tecs without going thru the apprenticeship program. Its a red seal trade restricted to licensed tecs and apprentice's only. The passing grade which we have to maintain in school is at a high level. The amount on information which we have to know and retain and to keep up with is a huge task in itself. To hear bullshit like this makes me so ****ing angry.
Ill leave it to the other 310a apprentices on here to chew you a new ******* now.

Am 100% with Adam on this one.

[MajesticBlueNTO]

As an apprentice myself, albeit in the heavy truck industry and not automotive. **** you. How the hell do you expect us to gain experience and knowledge in the field without hands on. Most, not all but most licensed mechanics now a days (baby boomers) didn't go through the amount of schooling that we currentlyt go through. How does that make you feel now? The ****ing ignorance that I hear towards this trade makes me want to punch all of you in the faces. So in heinsight if all you want is licensed tecs to work on your car. Where the **** will you get these tecs without going thru the apprenticeship program. Its a red seal trade restricted to licensed tecs and apprentice's only. The passing grade which we have to maintain in school is at a high level. The amount on information which we have to know and retain and to keep up with is a huge task in itself. To hear bullshit like this makes me so ****ing angry.
Ill leave it to the other 310a apprentices on here to chew you a new ******* now.

I have nothing against bubba, but how is this post any different than what got tokay444 banned?

I'm not sticking up for tokay...instead, trying to understand what's kosher (moderator cussing out a member?) and what's not (member cussing out a moderator?)

[sip]

As an apprentice myself, albeit in the heavy truck industry and not automotive. **** you. How the hell do you expect us to gain experience and knowledge in the field without hands on. Most, not all but most licensed mechanics now a days (baby boomers) didn't go through the amount of schooling that we currentlyt go through. How does that make you feel now? The ****ing ignorance that I hear towards this trade makes me want to punch all of you in the faces. So in heinsight if all you want is licensed tecs to work on your car. Where the **** will you get these tecs without going thru the apprenticeship program. Its a red seal trade restricted to licensed tecs and apprentice's only. The passing grade which we have to maintain in school is at a high level. The amount on information which we have to know and retain and to keep up with is a huge task in itself. To hear bullshit like this makes me so ****ing angry.
Ill leave it to the other 310a apprentices on here to chew you a new ******* now.

I assume from your post that this is the industry practice. Many car manufacturers promote servicing by factory trained licensed mechanics (eg. GM Goodwrench program). Given the industry's propaganda, it is reasonable for customers to expect major repairs to be done by certified mechanics. I have no problem in in apprentices assisting licensed mechanics but shouldn't they be supervised, as the supervision benefits the apprentices too? Do you feel that it is ethical for dealerships to charge over $100 per hour and have unlicensed techs. work on customers cars? In other professions such as in law and accounting, billing is done according to work done by different skill levels (For example law student does charge out at the same rate as a law partner) but I don't know how practicable it is in auto industry.

I am not comparing myself to a car, but I wouldn't let a medical student to operate me so he/she get the necessary experience to be a surgeon. May be it is just me.

BTW, if you have write profanity, just spell it out instead of typing *** or don't write at all.

[bubba1983]

Profanity is blocked by filters so all you see is the astericks. And majestic. If you have an issue bring it up to the mod team. Ill be gladly to take a vacation on your behalf. I will be unsubscribed from this thread.

[MajesticBlueNTO]

Profanity is blocked by filters so all you see is the astericks. And majestic. If you have an issue bring it up to the mod team. Ill be gladly to take a vacation on your behalf. I will be unsubscribed from this thread.

i don't have an issue with your posts nor tokay's posts so there's no issue for me to report...but apparently one of your moderator brethren does; so the mod team can discuss amongst themselves how they can ban a member for being belligerent to a mod then, on the other hand, have a moderator act the same way towards a member.

[zzz3]

As an apprentice myself, albeit in the heavy truck industry and not automotive. **** you. How the hell do you expect us to gain experience and knowledge in the field without hands on. Most, not all but most licensed mechanics now a days (baby boomers) didn't go through the amount of schooling that we currentlyt go through. How does that make you feel now? The ****ing ignorance that I hear towards this trade makes me want to punch all of you in the faces. So in heinsight if all you want is licensed tecs to work on your car. Where the **** will you get these tecs without going thru the apprenticeship program. Its a red seal trade restricted to licensed tecs and apprentice's only. The passing grade which we have to maintain in school is at a high level. The amount on information which we have to know and retain and to keep up with is a huge task in itself. To hear bullshit like this makes me so ****ing angry.
Ill leave it to the other 310a apprentices on here to chew you a new ******* now.

wow, not that i have an issue with that post (seen worse on /b lol), but i didnt expect that from a moderator. instead of solely focusing on trying to correct the op's misconceptions and ignorance about the difficult process apprentice mechanics must go through you told him to F' off and such; focus on why it is important for apprentice mechanics to work and learn on customer vehicles. it is the internet after all, cant take everything personally in my opinion.


I assume from your post that this is the industry practice. Many car manufacturers promote servicing by factory trained licensed mechanics (eg. GM Goodwrench program). Given the industry's propaganda, it is reasonable for customers to expect major repairs to be done by certified mechanics. I have no problem in in apprentices assisting licensed mechanics but shouldn't they be supervised, as the supervision benefits the apprentices too? Do you feel that it is ethical for dealerships to charge over $100 per hour and have unlicensed techs. work on customers cars? In other professions such as in law and accounting, billing is done according to work done by different skill levels (For example law student does charge out at the same rate as a law partner) but I don't know how practicable it is in auto industry.

I am not comparing myself to a car, but I wouldn't let a medical student to operate me so he/she get the necessary experience to be a surgeon. May be it is just me.

BTW, if you have write profanity, just spell it out instead of typing *** or don't write at all.

i think it is also unreasonable to expect that just because someone is "licensed" they happen to be a professional. there are also bad mechanics, doctors etc. who just happen to hold certification, no? my point is your expectations are unreasonable and your actions borderline paranoia when you worry about one and not the other or vice versa. to be specific, im not talking about licensed vs. unlicensed but rather student vs. licensed. do you not trust your dealer enough to believe that they have a qualified apprentice in their shop?

[cwp_sedan]

i don't have an issue with your posts nor tokay's posts so there's no issue for me to report...but apparently one of your moderator brethren does; so the mod team can discuss amongst themselves how they can ban a member for being belligerent to a mod then, on the other hand, have a moderator act the same way towards a member.

Just to clarify since you seem to think that these these posts are somewhat similar (which they aren't), tokay was not banned for his one post the way most think. He continued to push buttons and cause problems. There is a lot more behind the scenes than you might think. He was banned for being a shit disturber to not only the members, but the moderating team as well.

As for Adam's post, I do think it could have been addressed better. We all have our off days with frustration and may say some things that we don't really mean or want to come across the way they do. I would at least give him the chance to rectify the situation. Whether that comes in the form of an apology to the OP or a revised post, who knows. Everyone gets the same chance to redeem themselves in most cases here on TM3. No mod or member should speak to another person in a demeaning or insulting way. There is no need for it.

Why I even have to bring up how little respect there is anymore on here just disturbs me. I guess this is the new age where everyone just treats everyone else like garbage.

There has been a lot of disagreement between mods and members lately and I'm getting tired of it. Most of us do the best we can to help keep the forum running smoothly, yet every day we are faced with more and more disgruntled members. I wish everyone just got along and there weren't any problems. Unfortunately that's not the case.

We (the mod team) are only as firm handed as we need to be. If certain members want to cause problems and make it difficult for us to moderate the board, then I am sorry to say the treatment will be reciprocated right back.

[Flagrum_3]

The dealership where I got my power steering recall done says it is the normal practice in dealerships to have unlicensed apprentices to work on cars as long as they are supervised by an licensed mechanic. Can the members in the industry confirm that this is the normal practice?When I pointed out that the apprentice was working without supervision, I was told that he has lot of experience, very capable, and the dealership takes responsibility for the work done. To the dealer's credit, the dealer's representative stopped the apprentice working on the car (although it was little too late) and assured me that only a licensed mechanic would work on my car in the future.

The dealer's view is that this is the only way for an apprentice get experience. Although it is understandable, I felt uncomfortable when I saw unlicensed tech. removing the power steering pump assembly and repairing it to get it ready for a licensed mechanic to install.

I guess the bottom line is we really do not know who would work on our cars. Is it unrealistic to expect only qualified professionals to work on major repairs (given that customers pay around $100 hour for out of warranty work)?Another issue that concerns me was that actual work was done in an hour although the service rep. initially told me that it takes two and a half hours to do the work and later told me it would take even more time, as I want only a licensed mechanic to work on the car. Is an hour enough to flush the fluid lines and do the power steering recall repair?

To answer your first question it is quite common and has been since forever.Most times the apprentice will be given the opportunity to do the complete job, and then when finished it would be examined by the qualified mechanic.This is common in many apprenticeships not just automotive.

Second question; Yes, there is alot more that goes into the hourly price then just the employees wage...as for using apprentices; dealers can get very busy and they have to prioritize who does what.

The service rep was doing the norm, he was quoting the price from the book.This is also very typical and 'standard' it seems in the industry.

Oh and as things go; replacing a PSP, I don't think is classified a 'Major' job.

Saying all that, it is also your prerogative to ask that only a licensed technician work on your car but it must be understood, it's not always possible.

_3

[Fuman]

i think it is also unreasonable to expect that just because someone is "licensed" they happen to be a professional. there are also bad mechanics, doctors etc. who just happen to hold certification, no? my point is your expectations are unreasonable and your actions borderline paranoia when you worry about one and not the other or vice versa. to be specific, im not talking about licensed vs. unlicensed but rather student vs. licensed. do you not trust your dealer enough to believe that they have a qualified apprentice in their shop?
+1

to OP: why are you going to dealer for out-of-warranty repairs?

[sip]

+1

to OP: why are you going to dealer for out-of-warranty repairs?

I didn't go but lot of people do. It is service department's main source of revenue. I mentioned it because I felt that when people pay lot of money (over $100 / hr) they would expect work to be done by a fully trained and certified tech.

The issue I was concerned was apprentice not being properly supervised. There was a tread about a member loosing all the engine oil after an oil change because oil cap was not put on. The dealer blamed it on the apprentice. BTW, I don't expect a certified tech. to do an oil change.

[Rob23]

how else do you expect mechanics to get there licences in the first place? you need to have certain amount of hours and experience. it is completely normal for apprentices to be working on cars. if they are not being supervised than its because they've proved to the dealer they are confident in that job. if your going in to have an engine replaced they wouldn't put an apprentice on the job, but if you going in to replace break pads they would probably put an apprentice on it.

[gabbygenier]

im gonna throw in my 2 cents here. the way i see it is mazda has a recall for the PSP right. so that means they are under warranty and everyone who has a mazda 3 with the years affected went back for this right. so that means being in the GTA area. im sure the dealer has replaced more then enough for the apprentice to learn how to do it properly.

like some have mentioned the proper way is to have a mechanic look over what hes doing. now whether they do it or not we don't really know. i used to help the engineer work on the helicopter and i didnt know anything about helicopters. but he would give me simple jobs to do and then look over it after i was done. and if i had questions about something i would ask. i guess thats where i would see a problem. if they got an apprentice that thought he knew everything and just did all the work and noone looked it over after. if he screwed something up then he would get blamed in the end right. then it would be up to the dealership to "punish" whoevers fault it was right.

also if i was to go to the dealer for stuff. i trust them enough with my car to let them do work on it. if i didn't, i wouldn't go to that dealership right?

and like some have mentioned. how is someone supposed to learn if noone gives them the chance to get some hands on experience

[Egierda]

I can understand the OP's paranoia, 110%. I do 99% of my work on my car myself, but if I'm going to pay somebody $100 an hour, I had better know who I'm paying $100 an hour to do the work on my car. I would undoubtedly feel more comfortable with a veteran mechanic performing any given task than some dude fresh out of school.

Bubba, I understand and appreciate your statement re: poor licensed mechanics, but by the same token, there are also bound to be poor apprentices. The OP has no idea whether or not this particular apprentice started at the dealership the morning of or the year before. No offense, but your explosion of anger stemming from the OP simply expressing concern is way over-the-top IMO. Settle down; they are just concerned about their car.

[TheMAN]

who cares if they're licensed or not as long as they get the job done GOOD?
if you care, take ontario's requirement of mechanics having a licence a blessing... there are certain states in the US that don't even have a licencing mandate for mechanics (therefore, no licence), which means you'll NEVER get a licenced mechanic even at a mazda dealer!

[Fuman]

I didn't go but lot of people do. It is service department's main source of revenue. I mentioned it because I felt that when people pay lot of money (over $100 / hr) they would expect work to be done by a fully trained and certified tech.

The issue I was concerned was apprentice not being properly supervised. There was a tread about a member loosing all the engine oil after an oil change because oil cap was not put on. The dealer blamed it on the apprentice. BTW, I don't expect a certified tech. to do an oil change.
With the particular example in question, I see it just human error.
I had a fully-license tech do my alignment, but they left one of my lower control arms bolt loose. I detected via, a weird clunk, and brought it back.
People mess up, as long as they learn from it, I am fine with that. However, if they repeatedly make the same mistake, then that is just incompetence.

If I may, next time you can ask for a licensed mechanic to validate the apprentice's work.

[Bleemer]

I think that the OP was concerned enough to share what he experienced and asked some fair questions which deserved fair level-headed answers. Many of the replies were quite helpful and thought-out, but for him do be dumped upon like that by a mod... well all I can say is wow.

Yes I am a newbie here but I am a member of many other car forums where there are also lots of drama and flaming, and a response like this from a mod would be deemed simply inappropriate. Like cwp_ said, we cannot always agree on everything, but we can still be civil to one another. Just my $0.02 anyway.

[Shawn]

Why don't we use the example of a hospital?

When you go there at 4am in the morning do you get a Doctor? Not usually.
You get an intern.. I once got metal in my eye, had to go to the hospital and an intern started up the mini-dremel tool and ground it out. There was no Doctor standing over his shoulder 24/7 saying do this do that.

At your work, is your boss hovering over you the entire day? No.

[Flunk]

This is like anything else, they have the apprentices/interns/whatever do all the grunt work the fully trained guys don't feel like doing. It's impossible for everyone to be a full mechanic with 10 years of experience (well it is, but very pricey).

I appreciate that you're worried about your car, that's natural. But this isn't anything to worry about.

[McGuyver_3]

Beeing an apprentice and working at a dealer I work on pretty much anything that I am comfortable working on (mind you I have been in the trade about 6 years just been screwed around with getting my licence but thats besides the point) and what ever it is they allow me to work on. When approaching a situation where I am unsure of something I am still stopping and asking questions about how to go about things. It's the only way to advance and understand the product I am working on. Be it warranty or customer pay doesn't matter, work is work and the farther you get in to the apprenticeship the harder jobs you get. A power steering pump does not seem as a very sophisticated job. And just an FYI the schooling we go through is a load of SHIT. Why you ask? you don't learn from books. You can use it as a guide but thats where it ends. We work with our hands day in day out then they send us to school and sit us down for 95% of the course and the other 5% is hands on where it should be the other way around.

i'd also like to keep the dealer i work at out of this

[dentinger]

as an apprentice myself, im completely on par with bubbs and dan.

that is all.

[spoolin54]

As an apprentice myself, albeit in the heavy truck industry and not automotive. **** you. How the hell do you expect us to gain experience and knowledge in the field without hands on. Most, not all but most licensed mechanics now a days (baby boomers) didn't go through the amount of schooling that we currentlyt go through. How does that make you feel now? The ****ing ignorance that I hear towards this trade makes me want to punch all of you in the faces. So in heinsight if all you want is licensed tecs to work on your car. Where the **** will you get these tecs without going thru the apprenticeship program. Its a red seal trade restricted to licensed tecs and apprentice's only. The passing grade which we have to maintain in school is at a high level. The amount on information which we have to know and retain and to keep up with is a huge task in itself. To hear bullshit like this makes me so ****ing angry.
Ill leave it to the other 310a apprentices on here to chew you a new ******* now.

http://i648.photobucket.com/albums/uu204/Darin911/FullRetard.jpg

[Rob23]

in reality the apprentice was probably well trusted with that dealership, so obviously hes proved himself to do good work so the mechanics don't have to watch his every move. they check afterwards to make sure everything is done properly. im an electrician apprentice and i can tell you first hand that this is completly normal in almost all trades.

[Cosmo77]

Ok I'm going to chime in here a bit.

As a technician that has worked for Mazda for 15+ years. I have always tried to train an apprentice that is willing to learn or shows a willingness to learn. Apprentices are just part of the industry. Yes we use them to do jobs for us at times. But any tech that value's his ticket would never allow a vehicle off the hoist without ever looking over an appretices work or questioning an apprentice on what he (or she) did.

So yes paying $100/hr for work is expensive...but do not feel in any way your money is being wasted. You are paying for that kid to learn and most importantly. Your paying for the mechanics experience.

A few members have written here 'that if the apprentice was not trusted by the dealership, they probably wouldn't be doing the job'. This is probably 95%accurate...bad pubblicity is never worth saying a few bucks.

As for the time it takes to do the recalls. I think most mazda mechanics will say yes the first 10 took about 2 hours to do....now that I have done probably over 150 myself. I can do them in about 30-45mins and 100% say I am not missing or skipping any steps.

Cosmo

[Harbour Rat]

At some point apprentices have to go solo. Now I would be concerned if a shop let a first year apprentice change the power steering pump his/her first week on the job, before anyone knows if they can pick up a wrench without hurting themselves. But if it is a second or third year apprentice who has been there long enough to prove they are competent and responsible then they are ready to handle some pretty big jobs without a journeyman looking over their shoulder the whole time. Self-sufficiency, self-confidence, independence and the ability to figure things out one's self are part of what an apprentice is supposed to learn, not just diagnostics, how the parts fit together and that sort of stuff.

By the final year of the program an apprentice should be left to work on their own for the most part and only have a journeyman involved if they ask for help or if they are obviously in over their head and don't realize it. Hopefully by the last year of an apprenticeship program anyone who fits the latter description has been weeded out; the ones who know enough to ask for help or advice when they need it probably have enough brains to handle most jobs they are given. A job may take a little longer if an apprentice needs help or advice doing something new but even journeymen with years or decades in the trade will see stuff that is new to them and need help or advice from time to time.

It isn't just auto mechanics either. Over the past year and half I have had "apprentices" draw my blood, insert catheters, prescribe narcotics, perform a colonoscopy and assist in two abdominal surgeries. I was obviously unconscious but I believe my last surgery, in December, was performed almost entirely by an "apprentice" surgeon, with the "journeywoman" there mostly to observe. It worked out fine.

[tenwthirty]

Come on the real reason there is so many apprentices working an cars everywhere is money.Why pay a lic when a half price apprentice can do it.Or try and do it in some cases.The ratio used to be one lic one apprentice,it grew to three apprentices for each mechanic.And then there's installers .I don't even want to go there.And as far as a full lic checking all the work an apprentice does ? Well that's a joke.Unfortunately today apprentices are cheap labor to management. I've been on shifts where there's ten apprentices and installers to one mechanic.And do they screw up? Oh ya.....When a person brings a car into a licensed repair facility in Ontario they have the expectation a qualified licensed mechanic with a 310s is working on his car period.And at $100 an hr. that "s what they should get. The next time you pay full shop rate for a repair ask the counter staff to get the mechanic to put his license # on the work order ...tenwthirty

[mathew.poulos]

Come on the real reason there is so many apprentices working an cars everywhere is money.Why pay a lic when a half price apprentice can do it.Or try and do it in some cases.The ratio used to be one lic one apprentice,it grew to three apprentices for each mechanic.And then there's installers .I don't even want to go there.And as far as a full lic checking all the work an apprentice does ? Well that's a joke.Unfortunately today apprentices are cheap labor to management. I've been on shifts where there's ten apprentices and installers to one mechanic.And do they screw up? Oh ya.....When a person brings a car into a licensed repair facility in Ontario they have the expectation a qualified licensed mechanic with a 310s is working on his car period.And at $100 an hr. that "s what they should get. The next time you pay full shop rate for a repair ask the counter staff to get the mechanic to put his license # on the work order ...tenwthirty

:welcome smiley

[tenwthirty]

Ya thanks! This issue is a sore spot with me.Just.venting a bit but all truth
.lol tenwthirty

[TheMAN]

if this makes any of you feel better, there are some states in the US that doesn't have any sort of mechanic licensing scheme, therefore Mazda dealers in those states are staffed full of old time unlicensed mechanics!

[McGuyver_3]

Come on the real reason there is so many apprentices working an cars everywhere is money.Why pay a lic when a half price apprentice can do it.Or try and do it in some cases.The ratio used to be one lic one apprentice,it grew to three apprentices for each mechanic.And then there's installers .I don't even want to go there.And as far as a full lic checking all the work an apprentice does ? Well that's a joke.Unfortunately today apprentices are cheap labor to management. I've been on shifts where there's ten apprentices and installers to one mechanic.And do they screw up? Oh ya.....When a person brings a car into a licensed repair facility in Ontario they have the expectation a qualified licensed mechanic with a 310s is working on his car period.And at $100 an hr. that "s what they should get. The next time you pay full shop rate for a repair ask the counter staff to get the mechanic to put his license # on the work order ...tenwthirty

Even as an apprentice I have a tech number and so do all the other apprentices at my work and this is from the day we started. The numbers get written on the workorders at my work and logged in the history. The way that I started when I got to the dealer I am at now was I worked 3 weeks total side by side with every tech in the shop. alternating day by day. They knew right away what I struggled with and what I was good at. I had a manager at the time that was open to allowing me to work on anything I felt comfortable on after those 3 weeks. Mind you I had some training under my belt before hand but was still rather green if you want to put it that way. I had questions the techs around me had answers and suggestions. They listened to me and I listened to them the job got done. Sure every now and then a car came back but that is inevitable.For example, to you a CEL is a light that indicates something wrong. To me a CEL is 1000 differen't possibilities. I could fix your cam sensor CEL today and tommorow you could have a CEL for a thermostat. When you are paying 100$ an hour labour rate you are paying 25$ (estimated) to the tech and the rest goes to the upkeep, the coffee machine, the advisors, and anything else that is involved with a dealer. Personally I couldn't care less who works on my car when it goes to the dealer, be it CP or warranty. If the apprentice works on it and is so green that he does not know where the drain plug is...the tech will guide him in the right direction. Everyone has to start somewhere. I am sure that whatever it is that you do, you don't just pick it up in an hour and are good at it. In a way a new person at your work could be an "apprentice" as well just a little different. Important files, documents, cases or whatever are on the line there to. Deadlines are also there.
Keep this in mind as well. I have seen my fare share of co-op kids come through the shop and tand most of them are all there because they want the day off of school to shoot the shit and do nothing and its an easy 2 or 4 credits, they will never come in to the trade. Now the co-op kids that come through and want to be there will be side by side with a tech all day and will ask 50 million questions, which then leads to job offers from that place he/she is at. This will be a good apprentice.

[mazdasport]

I could not agree more comming from another tradesman the trades have been dragged through the mud the past few years as jobs for low class people with low pay when without that apprentice learning when that fully licensed tech retires in a few years if they trained no one the trade would just die and like everyone said the dealership puts trust in these apprentices to do the job right you take your ca

Even as an apprentice I have a tech number and so do all the other apprentices at my work and this is from the day we started. The numbers get written on the workorders at my work and logged in the history. The way that I started when I got to the dealer I am at now was I worked 3 weeks total side by side with every tech in the shop. alternating day by day. They knew right away what I struggled with and what I was good at. I had a manager at the time that was open to allowing me to work on anything I felt comfortable on after those 3 weeks. Mind you I had some training under my belt before hand but was still rather green if you want to put it that way. I had questions the techs around me had answers and suggestions. They listened to me and I listened to them the job got done. Sure every now and then a car came back but that is inevitable.For example, to you a CEL is a light that indicates something wrong. To me a CEL is 1000 differen't possibilities. I could fix your cam sensor CEL today and tommorow you could have a CEL for a thermostat. When you are paying 100$ an hour labour rate you are paying 25$ (estimated) to the tech and the rest goes to the upkeep, the coffee machine, the advisors, and anything else that is involved with a dealer. Personally I couldn't care less who works on my car when it goes to the dealer, be it CP or warranty. If the apprentice works on it and is so green that he does not know where the drain plug is...the tech will guide him in the right direction. Everyone has to start somewhere. I am sure that whatever it is that you do, you don't just pick it up in an hour and are good at it. In a way a new person at your work could be an "apprentice" as well just a little different. Important files, documents, cases or whatever are on the line there to. Deadlines are also there.
Keep this in mind as well. I have seen my fare share of co-op kids come through the shop and tand most of them are all there because they want the day off of school to shoot the shit and do nothing and its an easy 2 or 4 credits, they will never come in to the trade. Now the co-op kids that come through and want to be there will be side by side with a tech all day and will ask 50 million questions, which then leads to job offers from that place he/she is at. This will be a good apprentice.

[Kiyomi]

interesting thread. imo- many apprentices do more work than the licensed mechanic/boss/journeyman/foreman (became recent apprentice within 353 electrical union). the problem is knowledge where the more experienced person licensed is supposed to be able to perform the job without a problem and if there is, fix it properly. If the apprentice was able to do it in a hour and there were no problems, the better for you. I agree with Bubba that the only way to learn is hands on within any red seal trade or else how are you supposed to do the work?

I find it slightly ignorant on your part to think that apprentices cant do work on cars, even if they are major parts being replaced. I dont think it was meant as an insult and some may have taken it to heart. that being said, I do also see why you are concerned as it is your "baby", and only want the best treatment for the car.
the dealership said that they take any and all responsibility for the apprentices work, so they must be confident in his skills/abilities.

edit: why the hell was this thread revived? reading through tenwthirty;s posts, and all I can think is are you high? :D the reason why an apprentice gets paid less is because they are learning. its a win/win for both company and apprentice. they get cheaper labour and an employee, while the apprentice gets to learn a trade. If your angry that you get paid less as an apprentice, thats a diff issue.

[McGuyver_3]

interesting thread. imo- many apprentices do more work than the licensed mechanic/boss/journeyman/foreman (became recent apprentice within 353 electrical union). the problem is knowledge where the more experienced person licensed is supposed to be able to perform the job without a problem and if there is, fix it properly. If the apprentice was able to do it in a hour and there were no problems, the better for you. I agree with Bubba that the only way to learn is hands on within any red seal trade or else how are you supposed to do the work?

I find it slightly ignorant on your part to think that apprentices cant do work on cars, even if they are major parts being replaced. I dont think it was meant as an insult and some may have taken it to heart. that being said, I do also see why you are concerned as it is your "baby", and only want the best treatment for the car.
the dealership said that they take any and all responsibility for the apprentices work, so they must be confident in his skills/abilities.

It's not that I was insulted or took this to heart, but I would rather educate poster of how things work and that no matter what job you go in to there will always be an "apprentice". I know an office job for example doesn't have an "apprentice" but they have a "new employee" which could be an apprentice if for example this person is fresh out of college or University, heck even comming from another company or a different department.

[Kiyomi]

It's not that I was insulted or took this to heart, but I would rather educate poster of how things work and that no matter what job you go in to there will always be an "apprentice". I know an office job for example doesn't have an "apprentice" but they have a "new employee" which could be an apprentice if for example this person is fresh out of college or University, heck even comming from another company or a different department.

agree 100%. and i wasnt specifically talking about you lol. but as i read the dates of the posts, realized this is just a long dead thread revived by a new member venting on the forum as his first posts.

[Paul17]

As an apprentice myself, albeit in the heavy truck industry and not automotive. **** you. How the hell do you expect us to gain experience and knowledge in the field without hands on. Most, not all but most licensed mechanics now a days (baby boomers) didn't go through the amount of schooling that we currentlyt go through. How does that make you feel now? The ****ing ignorance that I hear towards this trade makes me want to punch all of you in the faces. So in heinsight if all you want is licensed tecs to work on your car. Where the **** will you get these tecs without going thru the apprenticeship program. Its a red seal trade restricted to licensed tecs and apprentice's only. The passing grade which we have to maintain in school is at a high level. The amount on information which we have to know and retain and to keep up with is a huge task in itself. To hear bullshit like this makes me so ****ing angry.

Good job bubba
Ill leave it to the other 310a apprentices on here to chew you a new ******* now.

100% agreed with you man
im a apprentice my self and people like you piss me off you to anal

[tenwthirty]

I"m back! I could go on about what a great mechanic I am after 30 yrs and all the training and money I've spent on tools [ my new lab scope would have paid for some fun stuff] but every mechanic thinks he's the best.....Here's the thing I thought I was great in the beginning lol I now know I have forgot more than I knew then.and there was some jobs in the beginning I wasn't real proud of...So that being who do you want working on your car for $100 an hr me now or then? I recently fixed a head where the apprentice bent all the valves doing a timing belt. How would you like it if that was your car,and who knows who's paying the costs.Another problem is the money lic. guys loose to apprentices ..Flat rate = no work=no money...Unless every lic guy has a full 8 hrs no apprentice or installer should get work.See how many apprentices would be left then .....The money the boss rips off mechanics he uses to pay non certified workers.. and that's who's working on your cars......leaving ....shit loose....stripping bolts...guessing at whats wrong etc.and all this costs u money believe me. and the real lic guys are starving and leaving the trade...Read the threads on here about the horror stories the waits the crap work etc. Do you think thats highly trained lic guys with years of experience doing that junk..naw wake up .Just ask at the service counter filled with all those people who used to work in the fast food industry last week lol YOU DO NOT WANT ANYONE WITHOUT A MECHANICS LICENSE TO TOUCH YOUR CAR......My 2C....all truth....tenwthirty

[Booter22]

I"m back! I could go on about what a great mechanic I am after 30 yrs and all the training and money I've spent on tools [ my new lab scope would have paid for some fun stuff] but every mechanic thinks he's the best.....Here's the thing I thought I was great in the beginning lol I now know I have forgot more than I knew then.and there was some jobs in the beginning I wasn't real proud of...So that being who do you want working on your car for $100 an hr me now or then? I recently fixed a head where the apprentice bent all the valves doing a timing belt. How would you like it if that was your car,and who knows who's paying the costs.Another problem is the money lic. guys loose to apprentices ..Flat rate = no work=no money...Unless every lic guy has a full 8 hrs no apprentice or installer should get work.See how many apprentices would be left then .....The money the boss rips off mechanics he uses to pay non certified workers.. and that's who's working on your cars......leaving ....shit loose....stripping bolts...guessing at whats wrong etc.and all this costs u money believe me. and the real lic guys are starving and leaving the trade...Read the threads on here about the horror stories the waits the crap work etc. Do you think thats highly trained lic guys with years of experience doing that junk..naw wake up .Just ask at the service counter filled with all those people who used to work in the fast food industry last week lol YOU DO NOT WANT ANYONE WITHOUT A MECHANICS LICENSE TO TOUCH YOUR CAR......My 2C....all truth....tenwthirty

ok there is no need to be rude, there is also tons of terriable mechanics out there that usually end up at canadian tires, or open there own shop. charge half the labour rate and twice as much time to do the work because they have only worked on hondas for the last ten or twenty years and dont know how to fix a BMW, or Mazda, or any other car. so sadly it goes that way too. do you really need a "tech" to do an oil change? as a tech yourself would you like to do 27 oil changes per day at .3 paid to make your 8 hours? manufacture recalls and such that take three times the actual paid time? or just inspect it and give the check that its ok, or do the work that takes and pays the time. larger services / diagnostic and things that = money for a flate rate tech. there are jobs that require an apprentice to do them, and also jobs that are better of course directed to a tech.

if someone asked me to not have an apprentice work on the vehicle. sure that is no problem. if you are coming in for an oil change. i would be surprised at a tech would turn it down, but if there is larger work to be done and they are up next would you take the .3 oil change as requested by a customer and miss out on the 1.5 hour service to the next tech? im sure the obvious would be done but still...

as a tech your self after 30 years in the industry.. why are you worried about paying someone for work? why dont you just do it yourself? just seems a bit random to come :flaming then to say your a tech.. just confused why you would even pay someone else and not do your own work.

[tenwthirty]

testing

[Booter22]

testing

worked :S

[tenwthirty]

I have no idea what gave you the idea I pay someone to fix my car...tenwthirty

[tenwthirty]

In my world you stay in rotation for work if the job pays less than .5....and .3 is better than .0 and watching the co -op kid change oil on a customers car.So assistant service manager thinks only Mazda techs are good mechanics? So does whoever changes oil upsell and write estimates? tenwthirty

[peterm15]

Why can't this conversation just die. People need to learn, thats where it ends.

If you don't like it, do it yourself. If you can't. Shut up and pay.

[JD@WhitbyMazda]

So, my :.02

There are good apprentices and bad apprentices... Good technicians and bad technicians. I've known apprentices who do a way better job than licensed technicians. I've also seen apprentices who don't last longer than a month because they lack the drive and the initiative to learn. Being licensed isn't a black and white way to see who knows what they are doing. There are lots of people with driver's licenses, but that doesn't make them good drivers.

Trades will always have apprentices; they can't be expected to learn by watching other people work. Does it suck to see an hourly apprentice working on a job when the flat rate tech is sitting around? Sure it does. At one point the technician sitting on his ass was likely working for an hourly wage while a different flat rate technician was sitting on his ass.

You'll never hear a licensed guy complain that an apprentice is doing oil/filter changes as long as there's other work to be done. It's only when work is slow that it becomes an issue.

Edit; spelling and grammar.

[Kiyomi]

I have no idea what gave you the idea I pay someone to fix my car...tenwthirty

why did you revive this thread? and why do you keep saying tenwthirty at the end. we can see your name. dont need to keep seeing it twice. unless that is your real name...

[TheMAN]

maybe he's bitter that he doesn't get enough flag hours and there's no union to protect his wages?
maybe he meant "ten four"?

[Booter22]

I have no idea what gave you the idea I pay someone to fix my car...tenwthirty

the fact that you flammed an old thread about cost to pay people. :S i think you gave everyone the same idea.


In my world you stay in rotation for work if the job pays less than .5....and .3 is better than .0 and watching the co -op kid change oil on a customers car.So assistant service manager thinks only Mazda techs are good mechanics?
did i say only mazda techs are good mechanics? pretty sure i didnt. ive worked with many good techs at canadian tire, and many bad.


So does whoever changes oil upsell and write estimates? tenwthirty
this makes no sense, if there is work required to be done. air filter. brakes so on and so forth it is noted priced and the customer is informed.

[Manpreet]

I"m back! I could go on about what a great mechanic I am after 30 yrs and all the training and money I've spent on tools [ my new lab scope would have paid for some fun stuff] but every mechanic thinks he's the best.....Here's the thing I thought I was great in the beginning lol I now know I have forgot more than I knew then.and there was some jobs in the beginning I wasn't real proud of...So that being who do you want working on your car for $100 an hr me now or then? I recently fixed a head where the apprentice bent all the valves doing a timing belt. How would you like it if that was your car,and who knows who's paying the costs.Another problem is the money lic. guys loose to apprentices ..Flat rate = no work=no money...Unless every lic guy has a full 8 hrs no apprentice or installer should get work.See how many apprentices would be left then .....The money the boss rips off mechanics he uses to pay non certified workers.. and that's who's working on your cars......leaving ....shit loose....stripping bolts...guessing at whats wrong etc.and all this costs u money believe me. and the real lic guys are starving and leaving the trade...Read the threads on here about the horror stories the waits the crap work etc. Do you think thats highly trained lic guys with years of experience doing that junk..naw wake up .Just ask at the service counter filled with all those people who used to work in the fast food industry last week lol YOU DO NOT WANT ANYONE WITHOUT A MECHANICS LICENSE TO TOUCH YOUR CAR......My 2C....all truth....tenwthirty

Your probably those old farts that don't want to learn anything and talk lot of shit

[S.F.W.]

Thread ha run it's course.