Fobio's MS3 w/ GT3071R and Big MAF

[Fobio]

This is not a build thread...it's a tuning thread. =)

For a build thread, feel free to check out lenny/rodrigo's how-to on MSF.org, amongst many, many others...

What I can contribute may be my experience with tuning this thing, which I don't believe is done yet...here's my first dyno sheet.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-y_7FdyG_v10/Th95Bd-SJaI/AAAAAAAAEME/wbZddLmYs34/s1024/DynoJuly2011.jpg

Parts:

CP-e 3.25" Big MAF, CP-e Nviscid TIH, SteedSpeed Stock Mani, Grimmspeed 3-port EBCS, GT3071R w/ ported IWG, ~12psi WGA spring pressure, CP-e catted DP, CP-e CBE w/ resonator, Cobb AP v102 22psi load tuned on the street by myself.

[shu5892001]

350whp :hawt

[standsideways]

Any plans on ditching the cobb and making big power or just staying with the ap?

[Fobio]

350whp :hawt

=)


Any plans on ditching the cobb and making big power or just staying with the ap?

The Cobb AP is the reason for the big power.

[Scottobot]

350whp :hawt

Kaboom?

[Fobio]

Kaboom?

this isn't 2007/2008...nowadays, with the Cobb AP controlling proper fueling, guys are regularly running close to 400whp on the stock block...

I've been tracking the car since the install...

A pic of my rich base tune...

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-zcakAlz04Kk/Th9-qRCt51I/AAAAAAAAEMQ/4tR7NyEuncs/271142_10150686094860531_756965530_19382641_506613 9_n.jpg

[fywdyl]

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-zcakAlz04Kk/Th9-qRCt51I/AAAAAAAAEMQ/4tR7NyEuncs/271142_10150686094860531_756965530_19382641_506613 9_n.jpg

I get the ring of fire too sometimes when I eat too much spicy food....

Nice numbers! Are you satisfied yet or are you aiming for more? I'm assuming that after the BT, your torque curve got pushed to the right a bit more?

[Fobio]

I get the ring of fire too sometimes when I eat too much spicy food....

Nice numbers! Are you satisfied yet or are you aiming for more? I'm assuming that after the BT, your torque curve got pushed to the right a bit more?

Somebody call 911...

But the firetruck can't catch us...lol...

There's always more on the table to be had tho...eventho the goal may not be more power, optimizing the tune is always a good thing. I consider this my baseline for the this turbo.

[J.Dragan]

this isn't 2007/2008...nowadays, with the Cobb AP controlling proper fueling, guys are regularly running close to 400whp on the stock block...

I've been tracking the car since the install...

A pic of my rich base tune...

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-zcakAlz04Kk/Th9-qRCt51I/AAAAAAAAEMQ/4tR7NyEuncs/271142_10150686094860531_756965530_19382641_506613 9_n.jpg

Hold that pose, HONEY BRING THE PORTERHOUSE STEAKS, medium rare O.K. with you guy's. :cool

[Iceman_F1]

Looks good! So want to come for a ride on the track one day if it's possible.

[rzapata]

Holy moly!!! 350WHP!!!!! :drool

Just wondering though, did you ever break anything with this set up?

Lots of acronyms, can't understand most of the stuff there.. :) Sorry, still new to this turbo thing.

[fywdyl]

Somebody call 911...

But the firetruck can't catch us...lol...

There's always more on the table to be had tho...eventho the goal may not be more power, optimizing the tune is always a good thing. I consider this my baseline for the this turbo.

For sure. Like you said, tune for safety and the power is just a bonus.

Those jpgs looks like the eye charts that my eye doctor uses... ha ha.

[BlueStreak]

- BATs are awesome.
- Did you deliberately tune your boost curve for 20PSI at 4000RPM?
- What spark advance are you running?

[Fobio]

Holy moly!!! 350WHP!!!!! :drool

Just wondering though, did you ever break anything with this set up?

Lots of acronyms, can't understand most of the stuff there.. :) Sorry, still new to this turbo thing.

Nothing broke while testing this. I nede to reiterate: this isn't like the early days when the pioneers are still testing the waters. Nothing I'm doing is earth-shattering or new...I just learned from others' mistakes and experience and applied it the best I can. Bottom-line: Nothing done to the car stresses it out more than the K04...I don't get any phantom/partial throttle knock anymore with this turbo, cruising around 3000rpm in 6th....fuel economy is suprisingly on par with the K04 and since boost doesn't come on unless you get on and stay on it, I'm actually in boost less, for better AND for worse.


For sure. Like you said, tune for safety and the power is just a bonus.

Those jpgs looks like the eye charts that my eye doctor uses... ha ha.

dang...i didn't know the pics looked that bad...at least the log I have posted should look fine.


- BATs are awesome.
- Did you deliberately tune your boost curve for 20PSI at 4000RPM?
- What spark advance are you running?

1. thx.
2. it's supposed to be a 22psi tuned, dialed down by 5% for testing and tracking. The slight dip in boost around 4000 - 4500 has been fixed.
3. I think I command up to 16* timing at redline...I spent quite a bit of time clearing and interpolating to achieve a smooth timing curve. I purposely leave timing out of my logs when posted to avoid any heroic attempts at copying my timing and then blowing up.

[-cj-]

Congrats on getting your setup dialed in finally. Numbers look great.

Can't wait for a ride along ;)

[horto]

insane. i want to go for a ride!

[Fobio]

I'm using this program called Vitual Dyno to look at changes I've made, not necessarily replcing a real dyno plot...

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-K2bWMJr-SLE/TiUjaNIyfvI/AAAAAAAAENA/rYviZ3yrwFs/s1152/BT3071_Virtual_Dyno_03.jpg

[Fobio]

FWIW..I can't break 300g/s as yet.

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-3-HD4YH0uc8/TjDsr7UurfI/AAAAAAAAES8/9xePyz2F24M/s1024/btv102_fobiolog01.jpg

I use the data provided by:

http://climate.weatheroffice.gc.ca/climateData/hourlydata_e.html?timeframe=1&Prov=XX&StationID=5097&Year=2011&Month=7&Day=26

So here's my latest VD run with the above log vs my baseline:

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-vbghiDUvJnA/TjDwjaKu-EI/AAAAAAAAETw/YhkV-2Iyuao/btv102_fobioVD01.jpg

Here's one where I made more peak trq, but look what happens to my whp...

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-PQJmfipwEwY/TjDwCldKXFI/AAAAAAAAETc/fsBlsMAGBMc/btv102_fobioVD01_Heat.jpg

[Snotrocket]

Sooo close Fobio!!!! take your air filter off for a pull hahahahaha

[BlueStreak]

Hmmm... Why is your WGDC maxed?

[Fobio]

I have no idea...prolly cuz I'm missing a restrictor pill. Even still, I can get it to make more boost even @ max...got it hit above 23psi.

When I upgrade the MAP sensor, I'll easily be able to run 24psi.

[Fobio]

I have to be honest...datalog468 is the first time the car has really given me the "wow factor" even before I saw the log. having the log to back it up made it that much better.

This is from the last run of the night...finally broke 300g/s.

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-ByyhgaHjNMY/Tjd9XxqNcWI/AAAAAAAAEVQ/uW92L_hcr8Q/s1024/btv102_fobiolog02.jpg

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-8f_PFhVWu0I/Tjd9TqkfitI/AAAAAAAAEVM/CPLLER5vXqQ/btv102_fobioVD02.jpg

[BlueStreak]

Woooohooo!

Looking at your WGDC, its closed until ~4K RPM. I would think it would've been spooled by then. Are you doing something to prevent it from spooling sooner?

[Fobio]

Woooohooo!

Looking at your WGDC, its closed until ~4K RPM. I would think it would've been spooled by then. Are you doing something to prevent it from spooling sooner?

Again, it's likely due to running with no restrictor pill. I'm starting to wonder if I need it.

[BlueStreak]

Right right. Brain fart.

[Fobio]

Right right. Brain fart.

It's alright man...it's such a minor detail that even I forget it sometime. I also somewhat dread putting one back on as that'll likely mean I'll have to retune WGDC all over again...but, harder spool-on would certainly be interesting.

[-cj-]

Looking good. What did you change?

[Fobio]

Looking good. What did you change?

Not much really. basically, lowered timing a bit and upped boost across the board. I really just wanted multiple runs from different days to back-up 380whp/400wtrq and finalize the tune, but that little surprise in datalog468 makes me feel that the car is begging for 24psi....lol...

EDIT: also targetting 11.955 AFR.

[Fobio]

I'm pulling meth down low and retarding timing at spool-up more agressively to help build boost. results: 15psi @ 3200rpm, 17.5psi @ 3500rpm.

upper rpm boost drop will be fixed...car loves 22.8psi.

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-TZWonluWF1I/TjodVZz5Y2I/AAAAAAAAEVY/i-OjAxg80UM/btv102_fobioVD03.jpg

[BlueStreak]

Looking good.

If we can get roughly 2.0 calc load at 6k RPM, we'll hit 400whp I'm sure. 2.0 calc load is roughly 350wtq.

Mathematically, 350wtq @ 6K RPM equates to 400whp. (350 x [6000/5252])


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[Fobio]

Looking good.

If we can get roughly 2.0 calc load at 6k RPM, we'll hit 400whp I'm sure. 2.0 calc load is roughly 350wtq.

Mathematically, 350wtq @ 6K RPM equates to 400whp. (350 x [6000/5252])


From what I've seen, I think I need a higher flowing intercooler to run that on a consistent basis. Or...that's to say, that at this point, I think my intercooler could be the restriction...that or I need a ported IM.

But really, I'm happy with it for working out so far. Reaching 400whp, isn't really that important other than for maybe minor glory thru bragging rights. I'm more focused on getting better lap times with the car.

[BlueStreak]

Gottcha.


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[Fobio]

Gottcha.


do not let me deter you or anyone else from trying tho. =)

in terms of tuning, setting up the top end is relatively easier for me than tweaking the bottom end of the RPM band. for example, I have to shift into 2nd at DDT to keep the turbo spooling now, whereas I used to drive the whole thing in 3rd and 4th. I guess I can certainly use more of a driving challenge, but the spool-on lag right now is killing my lap times.

having 400whp will certainly help at Mosport Big Track...but I need to work on my high speed cornering there more so than going faster on the Andretti Straight...having said that, being able to break 230km/h on the straight would be nice.

[BlueStreak]

Oh definitely. I'll try to dyno tune to 400whp then back it off. I like the warm fuzzy feeling of saying my car makes 400whp; its the ricer in me :-p

Your slow spool on is quite an anomaly for sure. That would definitely kill corner exit speed. Have you tried pulling timing?


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[Fobio]

Oh definitely. I'll try to dyno tune to 400whp then back it off. I like the warm fuzzy feeling of saying my car makes 400whp; its the ricer in me :-p

Your slow spool on is quite an anomaly for sure. That would definitely kill corner exit speed. Have you tried pulling timing?


You still running the stock TMIC?

RE: slow spool/timing...I don't see it as an unknown or anomaly...I don't have a restrictor pill.


I'm pulling meth down low and retarding timing at spool-up more agressively to help build boost.

[BlueStreak]

Nope. Running the CPe unit. No restrictor pill either.


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[Fobio]

Nope. Running the CPe unit. No restrictor pill either.

Ah...and here I was scratching my head thinking you trying to break 400whp with the stock TMIC?! having said that, if you want a dyno run, hard to deal with heat soak of TMIC on a dyno. But hey, we do have winter and lotsa snow to put on the TMIC...lol...

And when did you decide to tell me you're running without a pill?...interesting. The other 3071 I'm tuning is in 3-port with a pill...spools 22psi @ 3500rpm or about 5 more psi than me. Since the setup is identical minus the pill, we've concluded that to be that case for my setup.

There is also the possibility that my IWG is overly ported.

[BlueStreak]

Ah...and here I was scratching my head thinking you trying to break 400whp with the stock TMIC?! having said that, if you want a dyno run, hard to deal with heat soak of TMIC on a dyno. But hey, we do have winter and lotsa snow to put on the TMIC...lol...

And when did you decide to tell me you're running without a pill?...interesting. The other 3071 I'm tuning is in 3-port with a pill...spools 22psi @ 3500rpm or about 5 more psi than me. Since the setup is identical minus the pill, we've concluded that to be that case for my setup.

There is also the possibility that my IWG is overly ported.

Hahaha. I highly doubt 400whp would've been possible on the stock TMIC. I appreciate your restraint in not calling me on trying to hit 400whp with the stock TMIC (or even going big turbo with the stock TMIC). You're too kind :P

I figured running 3 port mode with no pill was a given. Other than the car you're tuning, I am not aware of anybody else running a pill with that EBCS config.

So what you're saying is that the WG is ported to the point that it no longer seals properly? I imagine that is possible with the slow spool on. It could also be that your WG could need tightening as 100% WGDC doesn't mean the WG is fully closed. It just means that the EBCS is trying to keep it fully closed. I'm sure you already know that though.

[Fobio]

Hahaha. I highly doubt 400whp would've been possible on the stock TMIC. I appreciate your restraint in not calling me on trying to hit 400whp with the stock TMIC (or even going big turbo with the stock TMIC). You're too kind :P

I figured running 3 port mode with no pill was a given. Other than the car you're tuning, I am not aware of anybody else running a pill with that EBCS config.

So what you're saying is that the WG is ported to the point that it no longer seals properly? I imagine that is possible with the slow spool on. It could also be that your WG could need tightening as 100% WGDC doesn't mean the WG is fully closed. It just means that the EBCS is trying to keep it fully closed. I'm sure you already know that though.

The other 3071 will chk his pill....and I'm going to look into what size if necessary. The IWG being overly ported has always been a concern, since it's like 1.25" vs. the uprated 1" that ATP has now been doing with the newer kits. other possible cause could be: I'm actually in 2-port...lol...

But other than the spool-on, I'm not too concerned....power at the rest of the RPM band, is...adequate. Furthermore, even on the K04, I've shifted the peak trq to be made at past 3500rpm, closer to 4000rpm. I've given up on the "wild-child" since stg2, so it's not like it affects my driving significantly.

[Fobio]

Well, as expected...nothing is ever as smooth as you plan it out to be...best laid plans...

Anyway...today's discoveries...

1. Car is connected in 3-port
2. My WGA does not have bolts holding it in place...FML. [I had personally tightened these before install...what happened, I don't know]
3. The other 3071 in 3-port does not have a restrictor.

So here's the plan of attack:

1. Inspect and re-install WGA with nuts and bolt...might have to get new WGA...argh.
2. If WGA is good to go, I may increase the pre-load on it.
3. Retune.

Ultimately, the overly ported IWG may still be the culprit, but I gotta do what I can to flesh it out.

[Fobio]

A bit of an update.

Re-installed the WGA and added 2 turns of pre-load. No effect on WGDC. It's still logs as maxed...BUT I can get it to boost more if I want to...

Here's log of spring pressure:

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-4NvlU8iFT2c/TlHQ4vP1uSI/AAAAAAAAEWc/gvPLxp9zKbk/btv102_springpressure.jpg

Since my spring pressure is about 8 - 9psi, I think a 1-bar or at least 12psi WGA will help me spool up quicker. Plus a 3-bar MAP sensor and we can try for 24+psi.

Here's a current log.

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-dVW7mTofNWM/TlHzHhzqjSI/AAAAAAAAEWo/wT-f39dput0/s1152/btv102_fobiolog04.jpg

[Fobio]

I got the 1-bar WGA installed with no pre-load. Spring pressure is @ 12.x psi and I'm using a hybrid of load and boost based tuning to hit targets...well, I'm a little over so more tuning this wknd.

So here's the log:

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-hrseIrGXV2c/TmJi0J4ZtrI/AAAAAAAAEW0/C0G-W9uOvfs/s1024/Hybrid_log.jpg

I've highlighted the RPM break points, along with the associated load numbers. What I'm not going to do it match my TRL - 4th gear to the LOAD number, not the boost number:

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-gIBuiG6SiDY/TmJi0hUUbgI/AAAAAAAAEW4/zRNFvfaF8uM/Hybrid_load.jpg

As you can see here, whereas before we can target TRL - 4th to the BOOST number [ie 20psi = 2.0 load, somewhere on the rpm range], now, I target the actual LOAD figure.

So I still leave my boost targets the same:

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-zF-pGg391i0/TmJi2I-DQVI/AAAAAAAAEW8/7ysHHAQEzaw/Hybrid_boost.jpg

What happens here is that the car will make the boost I target, yet, it'll correct boost based on the load error associated with the difference between "Targetted Load" in TRL - 4th vs. "Logged Load", by using the LEC table:

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-GyVBURt35TU/TmJi2cNnklI/AAAAAAAAEXA/ySijD9nUsKs/Hybrid_LEC.jpg

And of course, it bases its adjustment on the WGDC table. So when you go back to my log, you'll see that to hit over my targets, my Logged WGDC is in the 70's...I've dialed it back down to the 60's.

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-7tN11QZ5p_Y/TmJi4UkU5dI/AAAAAAAAEXE/TqtL09EzVtw/Hybrid_WGDC.jpg

[CLIFF's]
To hybrid tune, I'm now targetting my TRL to mimic the actual logged load, with an approx. +0.05 [load] uprate. If the boost achieved creates a load below the target, the car will use WGD - LEC to correct WGDC, which in turn affects boost and thus load.

Hope this helps, Anson. :)

[Fobio]

A new log...I got it to spike ~23psi, and taper to ~21psi now. Here's a clean log...with timing, for Dave. =)

With the stiffer WGA, I can now run more normal and appropriate timing down low...closer to OTS...and boost has remained the same! Currently, I can boost ~13psi @ 3000 and ~19psi @ 3500...not much more I can ask for.

A bit more fine tuning and I think I'm done...should settle on 360whp/390wtrq.

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-FuU9Peqj3Eo/TmWsVg1Ey9I/AAAAAAAAEXQ/mzlp-ICJh-k/s1152/btv200_Log01jpg.jpg

[-cj-]

Good stuff man. I think you've countered the over ported WG successfully. 19 psi @ 3500 is excellent. All you needed was a stiffer spring eh?

Edit: also noticed the milder timing... Good stuff

[BlueStreak]

Awesome, Vince.

That thing spools seriously quick. Nice timing up top. I wonder if it has more in it ;-)


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[Unoriginalusername]

A new log...I got it to spike ~23psi, and taper to ~21psi now. Here's a clean log...with timing, for Dave. =)

With the stiffer WGA, I can now run more normal and appropriate timing down low...closer to OTS...and boost has remained the same! Currently, I can boost ~13psi @ 3000 and ~19psi @ 3500...not much more I can ask for.

A bit more fine tuning and I think I'm done...should settle on 360whp/390wtrq.

sounds like it should scoot pretty well

[chinsterr]

GJ. Impressive numbers

[Fobio]

Good stuff man. I think you've countered the over ported WG successfully. 19 psi @ 3500 is excellent. All you needed was a stiffer spring eh?

Edit: also noticed the milder timing... Good stuff

mechanically speaking, as long as the flapper is physically bigger than the hole, then it should be good...there are min material and all that, but I guess mine's not leaking.

re: timing...the cool thing is I can look at even advancing it there now...


Awesome, Vince.

That thing spools seriously quick. Nice timing up top. I wonder if it has more in it ;-)


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I don't know why it's taking me so long this time around, but yeah, I have a road map in my hea of spending some time down low...install map sensor, then re-visit top end again. I can also push the car to the point where I can see the benefit of being able to run more meth...then again, I also want a tune where I can safely turn the knock sensor back down to 5700rpm MAX. At this point, I only want to mess with what I can safely see, and without the car being able to read over 23psi, playing with boost up top is dangerous, and so is timing to a certain extent (due to possible over-boost).


sounds like it should scoot pretty well

come and check out dyno day!


GJ. Impressive numbers

Thank you. Long time no see.