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Thread: law about lowering the car

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    Jr Member SP33D 3's Avatar
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    Default law about lowering the car

    today i had a little funny run in with a york region police officer... it all started with me paying one of my buddies some money i had borrowed from him on a trip during the winter break, the cop saw him counting the money and immediatly thought this was suspicious... he called us over and after talking to us for about 5 minutes or so he then questions my friend about where he had been in the last half hour since he matched the description of some guy who did a b&e at simonston... he was let off since his air force ones had only 2 rings on the heel side of the soul instead of four (sounds like an easy way to get off to me)

    anyways he then started commenting about my car saying the lowered level was deemed dangerous to drive so it was illegal and he had mentioned something about how i had to tell my insurance about the car being lowered or i could be seriously charged since the car was "too low"
    i have hte eibach springs and the car is clearly not even close to having the tires rubbing the car or the ground

    3. I want to lower the suspension and slam this car.
    No part of the tires may come into contact with the vehicle, no part of the vehicle can touch the ground and the front wheels cannot be visibly out of alignment.
    HTA 70(3)(a) – Improper tires - $85.00/$110.00
    http://www.e-laws.gov.on.ca/DBLaws/S...08_e.htm#70.(3)
    HTA O.Reg 625 Section 5(b) – Reference Section for HTA 70(3)(a)
    http://www.e-laws.gov.on.ca/DBLaws/R...h/900625_e.htm
    HTA O.Reg 611 Schedule 1 Section 3(5) – Reference Section for HTA 84 – Operate unsafe vehicle – No Set Fine, Maximum $20,000.00 fine.
    http://www.e-laws.gov.on.ca/DBLaws/R...h/900611_e.htm


    now my question is, what was this cop talking about?

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    Default Re: law about lowering the car

    I think he was trying to intimidate you.

    He was correct about one thing though. You do have to notify your insurance company of that type of modification. Many companies have it in the fine print that "performance" modifications to the car must be reported. This way they have the option of covering you or not. If you have an accident and it can be proven that the performance modification caused it, they can reject your claim.

    I believe there was a thread on this somewhere.

    2006 Copper Red Mazda3 GT Sport

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    Sr Member FLIPDADY's Avatar
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    Default Re: law about lowering the car

    Pure intimidation on the officers part.

    Did he measure the height of your car?

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    Default Re: law about lowering the car

    sorry, but hearing that kinda shit boils my blood. total intimidation. i remember being pulled over years ago (driving a car other than Mazda) - for driving with a "loud" exhaust. i won't mention the two harleys driving ahead of me. york region cops have the highest dick per capita rating in Ontario, next to OPP. and Toronto.

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    Jr Member SP33D 3's Avatar
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    Default Re: law about lowering the car

    thanks cf! youre always on the law stuff... i just found it really funny how the cop handled that situation... he asked my friend which car was his and he said that mazda and pointed in the direction of my car since his was parked near it and as we were in the tim hortons, i was waiting for my food and the cop started talking to my buddy again and mentioned my car... after he left 3 other people started laughing after they overheard us talking about how it was my car.... so has everyone else told their insurance about their mods? ironically i was at don mills and steeles after taking the car to the dealership to have the front passenger strut mount checked after hitting a pot hole downtown

    and no he didnt mention any numbers about the height... he just said it was illegal

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    Jr Member Swerny's Avatar
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    Default Re: law about lowering the car

    sounds like a cop on a power trip to me.
    Mike:
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    Jr Member TurboEight's Avatar
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    Default Re: law about lowering the car

    Cop was just being an ass....

    some cops are nice though..

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    Default Re: law about lowering the car

    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal Fang View Post
    I think he was trying to intimidate you.

    He was correct about one thing though. You do have to notify your insurance company of that type of modification. Many companies have it in the fine print that "performance" modifications to the car must be reported. This way they have the option of covering you or not. If you have an accident and it can be proven that the performance modification caused it, they can reject your claim.

    I believe there was a thread on this somewhere.

    http://www.torontomazda3.ca/forum/sh...urance+lowered

    ?? Not sure if this is the one you are thinking about....
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    Default Re: law about lowering the car

    good write up.
    please fix your links.

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    Default Re: law about lowering the car

    That would be it MGM.

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    Sr Member Skarbro's Avatar
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    Default Re: law about lowering the car

    With regards to Insurance - it isn't in fine print - it's in the regular print. Here it is:

    From the Ontario Automobile Policy 1:
    1.7.2 When We Cancel
    Where your policy has been in effect for less than 60 days, we may only cancel your
    policy for a reason that we have filed with the Financial Services Commission of
    Ontario.
    Where your policy has been in effect for more than 60 days, we may only cancel your
    policy for one of the following reasons:
    P non-payment of premium,
    P you have given false particulars of the automobile,
    P you have knowingly misrepresented or failed to disclose information that you
    were required to provide in the application for automobile insurance, or P the risk has changed materially.
    2006 Mazda 3 Sport GT●Black Mica●Manual●Sunroof


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    Sr Member Flagrum_3's Avatar
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    Default Re: law about lowering the car

    Quote Originally Posted by SP33D 3 View Post
    today i had a little funny run in with a york region police officer... it all started with me paying one of my buddies some money i had borrowed from him on a trip during the winter break, the cop saw him counting the money and immediatly thought this was suspicious... he called us over and after talking to us for about 5 minutes or so he then questions my friend about where he had been in the last half hour since he matched the description of some guy who did a b&e at simonston... he was let off since his air force ones had only 2 rings on the heel side of the soul instead of four (sounds like an easy way to get off to me)

    anyways he then started commenting about my car saying the lowered level was deemed dangerous to drive so it was illegal and he had mentioned something about how i had to tell my insurance about the car being lowered or i could be seriously charged since the car was "too low"
    i have hte eibach springs and the car is clearly not even close to having the tires rubbing the car or the ground

    3. I want to lower the suspension and slam this car.
    No part of the tires may come into contact with the vehicle, no part of the vehicle can touch the ground and the front wheels cannot be visibly out of alignment.
    HTA 70(3)(a) – Improper tires - $85.00/$110.00
    http://www.e-laws.gov.on.ca/DBLaws/S...08_e.htm#70.(3)
    HTA O.Reg 625 Section 5(b) – Reference Section for HTA 70(3)(a)
    http://www.e-laws.gov.on.ca/DBLaws/R...h/900625_e.htm
    HTA O.Reg 611 Schedule 1 Section 3(5) – Reference Section for HTA 84 – Operate unsafe vehicle – No Set Fine, Maximum $20,000.00 fine.
    http://www.e-laws.gov.on.ca/DBLaws/R...h/900611_e.htm


    now my question is, what was this cop talking about?
    Basically the officer was just pulling your willy,...probably just having fun with you ( I know because I've read thru the complete Highway traffic Act)...There is no such law in Ontario that pertains to the ride height of a vehicle.But some common sense is in issue here, say your vehicle is so low where parts may be scattered across the road, then your vehicle may be deemed unsafe.I had an idiot cop stop me in my previous vehicle saying I had no front plate, we went and took a look, there it was but on the right side of my front vascia, he then tried to tell me that was illegal, that it must be in the centre I just said to him "Well thats the way it came, I guess you'll have to ticket me along with about a million other owners"...he just gave me my license back and walked away.(Just goes to show the mentality of some of these guys).

    As for Insurance companies, I'd like to see them take that shit to court, because as far as I understand if your mod(s) are not against the law (highway traffic laws) pertaining to vehicle safety, they cannot penalize you or suspend your insurance, and the same goes for most other modifications people here have done to their vehicles...Remember they must prove that said modifications lead to the accident or damage (if either occurs), otherwise you are in your right to sue thier asses.

    But I would guess that the Insurance Companies feel no one would ever take them to court, so they put whatever stipulations in their policies that they want.

    Thats my take on it.


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    Sr Member Skarbro's Avatar
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    Default Re: law about lowering the car

    Quote Originally Posted by Flagrum_3 View Post
    As for Insurance companies, I'd like to see them take that shit to court, because as far as I understand if your mod(s) are not against the law (highway traffic laws) pertaining to vehicle safety, they cannot penalize you or suspend your insurance, and the same goes for most other modifications people here have done to their vehicles...Remember they must prove that said modifications lead to the accident or damage (if either occurs), otherwise you are in your right to sue thier asses.

    But I would guess that the Insurance Companies feel no one would ever take them to court, so they put whatever stipulations in their policies that they want.
    The insurance company doesn't have to take you to court.

    The (HTA) law has nothing to do with the insurance company's filed rules unless they specifically refer to the law.

    They do not have to prove that the mod caused the accident. When you take out an insurance policy, you are entering a legal binding contract. The details of that contract are outlined in the policy and the company's filed rules. As soon as they find out that you are lowered, most companies will drop you and/or deny the claim. Some will give you a grace period to put it back to stock.

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    Sr Member Wild Weasel's Avatar
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    Default Re: law about lowering the car

    Skarbro knows his stuff.

    Insurance has nothing to do with the legalities of modifications. My Sunfire doesn't have any illegal mods, yet no insurance company will touch it.

    You're right in that there is no law to charge him with for having Eibach springs on the car. If the officer sees evidence of a tire rub, or sees you bouncing down the street with blown dampers or some other such thing, I'm sure there must be some generic "unsafe vehicle" law they can use, but simply being of the opinion that the car is too low without having any indication of what might make it "too" low is just a scare tactic.

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    Sr Member Flagrum_3's Avatar
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    Default Re: law about lowering the car

    Quote Originally Posted by Skarbro View Post
    The insurance company doesn't have to take you to court.

    The (HTA) law has nothing to do with the insurance company's filed rules unless they specifically refer to the law.

    They do not have to prove that the mod caused the accident. When you take out an insurance policy, you are entering a legal binding contract. The details of that contract are outlined in the policy and the company's filed rules. As soon as they find out that you are lowered, most companies will drop you and/or deny the claim. Some will give you a grace period to put it back to stock.
    I never said the Insurance companies had to take anyone to court, I was saying people should take insurance companies to court!

    If an Insurance Company has limitations attached to their policies and you sign them thats a different story, but what if it was not there when you signed and they added the clause afterward.Also being that it is the law in Ontario that Auto insurance is mandatory, I would think there could be a good argument that they donnot have the legal right to revoke your insurance or deny a claim on the premises that you have added a (legal) mod....Just that I have never heard of anyone challenging the Insurance Companies on this specific issue in the courts and wonder how well this policy would hold in the courts.Just think about how rediculous it is and how the Insurance companies feel that they can come up with whatever policies they want, (basic cash grabs or theft as I see it).So...I decide I want to improve the handling on my vehicle and the safety of my vehicle and they want to deny me that right! I'm sorry but something does not make sense there....and I would believe the courts would rule the same.



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    Sr Member Skarbro's Avatar
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    Default Re: law about lowering the car

    Quote Originally Posted by Flagrum_3 View Post
    I never said the Insurance companies had to take anyone to court, I was saying people should take insurance companies to court!

    If an Insurance Company has limitations attached to their policies and you sign them thats a different story, but what if it was not there when you signed and they added the clause afterward.Also being that it is the law in Ontario that Auto insurance is mandatory, I would think there could be a good argument that they donnot have the legal right to revoke your insurance or deny a claim on the premises that you have added a (legal) mod....Just that I have never heard of anyone challenging the Insurance Companies on this specific issue in the courts and wonder how well this policy would hold in the courts.Just think about how rediculous it is and how the Insurance companies feel that they can come up with whatever policies they want, (basic cash grabs or theft as I see it).So...I decide I want to improve the handling on my vehicle and the safety of my vehicle and they want to deny me that right! I'm sorry but something does not make sense there....and I would believe the courts would rule the same.



    _3


    .
    Honestly I read and re-read your other post and it still sounds like you are saying the insurance company taking someone to court. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

    It says right in the OAP1 that you have to disclose any material information. Just about every insurance company has a filed rule about performance-enhancing mods and lowered suspensions.

    The insurance company will win this fight every time.

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    Sr Member Flagrum_3's Avatar
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    Default Re: law about lowering the car

    Quote Originally Posted by Skarbro View Post
    Honestly I read and re-read your other post and it still sounds like you are saying the insurance company taking someone to court. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

    It says right in the OAP1 that you have to disclose any material information. Just about every insurance company has a filed rule about performance-enhancing mods and lowered suspensions.

    The insurance company will win this fight every time.
    I guess I need to learn to write a little clearer, I'm not saying your wrong I'm just saying it doesn't seem right that they can revoke your policy for lowering your vehicle or adding an exhaust system, and wonder how it would turn out in the courts if the policy was attested....thats all.


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    Default Re: law about lowering the car

    dealing with insurance companies is like visiting the emerg ward: unless it's life or death, stay the hell away.

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    Sr Member Wild Weasel's Avatar
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    Default Re: law about lowering the car

    Quote Originally Posted by Flagrum_3 View Post
    I guess I need to learn to write a little clearer, I'm not saying your wrong I'm just saying it doesn't seem right that they can revoke your policy for lowering your vehicle or adding an exhaust system, and wonder how it would turn out in the courts if the policy was attested....thats all.


    _3


    .

    As Skarbro said, they do it because you didn't tell them about the mods. If you do anything to the car without telling them, then you can effectively void the policy. They've agreed to insure your car based on the info you've given them. If it turns out that your car is not what you said it was, then they have every right to revoke it.

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    Sr Member Wild Weasel's Avatar
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    Default Re: law about lowering the car

    Quote Originally Posted by Flagrum_3 View Post
    So...I decide I want to improve the handling on my vehicle and the safety of my vehicle and they want to deny me that right! I'm sorry but something does not make sense there....and I would believe the courts would rule the same.
    They're not denying you any such thing. You can do whatever they want. They just don't have to cover it. If you choose to do the mods you want, you simply have to go to a different insurer who will cover it. In most cases, that will mean facility and you pay a lot more.

    The problem here is that they don't know whether you've improved the safety or hindered it and can't be bothered to look into it for themselves.

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    Default Re: law about lowering the car

    Quote Originally Posted by Flagrum_3 View Post
    I guess I need to learn to write a little clearer, I'm not saying your wrong I'm just saying it doesn't seem right that they can revoke your policy for lowering your vehicle or adding an exhaust system, and wonder how it would turn out in the courts if the policy was attested....thats all.


    _3
    People have taken insurance companies to court over many things. Most often then not they loose because they are trying to interpret "contract law," If you sign a contract with anyone you need to know your responsibilities under that contract to ensure you do not break the contract. As long as a company or individual you enter into a contract with is not asking you to break the law the contract is valid and can be upheld in a court of law. It's been done in the U.S. and it has been done in Canada.

    A contract is "s a legally binding exchange of promises or agreement between parties that the law will enforce." If you enter a contract with me that indicates that you must sweep my driveway every week for 20 weeks and for which I will compensate you $20.00 dollars for each time you do it then we have an agreement. If I further tell you that at no time should you sweep my neighbors driveway otherwise you will be in breach of our agreement. This request is reasonable and not against the law. Stupid as it may be if you agree to it it's enforceable.

    Everyone should read what their insurance policies state. All of it and if they have any questions they should ask. But you ask before you sign the contract NOT AFTER. You have to understand the risk you are taking.

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    Member whiteomega's Avatar
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    Default Re: law about lowering the car

    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal Fang View Post
    Everyone should read what their insurance policies state. All of it and if they have any questions they should ask. But you ask before you sign the contract NOT AFTER. You have to understand the risk you are taking.
    +1. Know what you're signing before you sign it. i was upfront with my insurance company about the mods, and they were ok with it. They did have to check with their underwriter first to make sure there wasn't a problem, but they OKed me.
    There is a theory which states that a billion monkeys pounding on a billion keyboards will eventually produce the works of Shakespeare.

    Thanks to the Internet, we now know this theory is wrong.

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    Sr Member Flagrum_3's Avatar
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    Default Re: law about lowering the car

    Quote Originally Posted by Wild Weasel View Post
    As Skarbro said, they do it because you didn't tell them about the mods. If you do anything to the car without telling them, then you can effectively void the policy. They've agreed to insure your car based on the info you've given them. If it turns out that your car is not what you said it was, then they have every right to revoke it.
    I understand that no problem.When I signed with my present insurer, I read the full 3 page document and there was no mention of modifications voiding the policy.So I guess I'm safe, unless they have changed their policy which I should find out soon when they send me this years renewal.


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    Sr Member Skarbro's Avatar
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    Default Re: law about lowering the car

    Quote Originally Posted by Flagrum_3 View Post
    I understand that no problem.When I signed with my present insurer, I read the full 3 page document and there was no mention of modifications voiding the policy.So I guess I'm safe, unless they have changed their policy which I should find out soon when they send me this years renewal.
    Do not assume you are safe! I don't know of ANY personal lines insurance company that shows you their complete filed rules up front before you sign on with them. You have to call them up and specifically ask them. You'll be in for a rude awakening if you ever get in this situation, bro.

    If you want, I'll call them for you and ask what their rules are on lowering and performance mods. What's the insurance company?

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    Sr Member Flagrum_3's Avatar
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    Default Re: law about lowering the car

    Quote Originally Posted by Wild Weasel View Post
    They're not denying you any such thing. You can do whatever they want. They just don't have to cover it. If you choose to do the mods you want, you simply have to go to a different insurer who will cover it. In most cases, that will mean facility and you pay a lot more.

    The problem here is that they don't know whether you've improved the safety or hindered it and can't be bothered to look into it for themselves.

    That in itself is a travesty, I can somewhat understand them needing to know if you've done mods but, if they haven't done their homework, what gives them the right to decide an exhaust is unexceptable or to say take them off or we'll drop you?

    My main point is; Since Insurance is mandatory by law, Insurance companies should be obligated by law to supply coverage, without making stupid rules that do not effect the safety of the vehicle and also by law not be able to drop you unless of course you've prooved to be a problem driver and furthermore it should be our government and Insurance bureau that enforces it.The problem is the Insurance companies are allowed to make the rules with absolutely no regulation from our government and that is just wrong, if by law we are forced to have insurance.

    Fang I understand contract law quite well and my argument is not about that as I stated much earlier, if you sign it then your bound to it, thats simple.My main point is what I've mentioned above in this post.


    _3


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