MS3/ATR/APR: Who has been Pro-Tuned/e-tuned?

[Fobio]

Has anyone gotten Cobb/Christian to do a e-tune? Or has anyone gotten a pro-tune yet?

Post up!

[spd frk]

I see that Neetronics in Mississauga is an authorized Cobb Protuner. They have a great rep I know with the subaru crowd, have any MS3 people tried them? I am curious to see what they could do really. I have been mostly fooling with building maps by myself.

Juergen

[WhiteSpeed3]

from when i talked to them last october they've never worked on any at all

[Fobio]

here's soemthing from MSF...Akuma Motorsports in Morganville, NJ.

http://www.mazdaspeedforums.org/foru...-tuner-nj.html

Originally I had an AMR protune set to 20psi (mods are in sig). on his mustang dyno it came out as 230whp 260wtq. John took a look at all the readings from the car and said i was in danger of a rod wanting out b/c the tune was all over the place, the boost was jumping from 16-21psi the entire run, ltft's were in the high teens, and the engine was being drowned w/ fuel. He retuned me at 18psi and i put down 250whp/275wtq at 11.6-11.8 afr across the board. All my trims are within 3% too which is awesome.

John also tapered my boost in so i can basically floor it at 2500 (which i wont do anyway) and the car will feather the throttle for me, i hit 14psi then climb to 18 so i dont have that huge tq spike at low revs. Throttle reponse is much more linear and predictable both at WOT and part throttle as well.

It seems they're the closest one with ample experience to do a tune. And from reading the quote, it seems that they are heading in the right direction by tapering low rpm boost and moving peak power into the higher rpms.

[spd frk]

That does sound pretty good. I am certainly getting to my experience limits in tuning myself. I have tuned for a steady 19.5psi across the board taper towards redline, but I haven't entirely figured out how to tune the fuel curves yet so my AFR is actually about 12.0. I could use some prfoessional help.

[DCYT]

I got Christian to e-tune my car.
I am on my 17th revision and it's looking very nice.

I would strongly recommend it!

[Fobio]

I got Christian to e-tune my car.
I am on my 17th revision and it's looking very nice.

I would strongly recommend it!

tell us more...process? cost? what sort of back and forth to expect in terms of communication?

[DCYT]

Basically, we started on a base map.
First we do a few revisions on maf calibration.
Then we would do WOT runs in 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 5th logging various perimeters. I would do the logging after every map revision until the timing, fuel and boost are dialed in.

Been going on for the last 2 mths or so.

[Fobio]

man we need to talk...I have so many questions...me and a couple of guys have kicked around the idea of inviting Christian up to tune a bunch of us, but cost is too prohibitive.

How's your tq curve? I don't mind doing an e-tune for the right price, but I'm also weary of the back and forth and my high expectations...

[MPS]

what mods you got ?

Basically, we started on a base map.
First we do a few revisions on maf calibration.
Then we would do WOT runs in 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 5th logging various perimeters. I would do the logging after every map revision until the timing, fuel and boost are dialed in.

Been going on for the last 2 mths or so.

[mleblond]

sub'ed we are like 5-6 guys easy that want it

[DCYT]

I haven't been on a dyno yet, so I can't really comment on the tq curve.

The most noticeable changes were in the higher gears, more timing, more boost, no knock and AF at 11.76.

BTW, I have a MS6, but results should be identical.

I would post a first/current map data log compare for you guys, but don't know how to attach it.

[mleblond]

I haven't been on a dyno yet, so I can't really comment on the tq curve.

The most noticeable changes were in the higher gears, more timing, more boost, no knock and AF at 11.76.

BTW, I have a MS6, but results should be identical.

I would post a first/current map data log compare for you guys, but don't know how to attach it.

you have to host it somewhere...email it to me and Ill put it on my website below if you got nothing

I am still thinking I can do it myself but depending on price (since time is hard to find) this may be the Good way to go.

[spd frk]

I would be interested in a pro tune. I am sure they can do better than I can.

[Fobio]

I've sent an email to Christian this morning, pointing him to this thread. Hopefully he can come in to provide us with more specific info.

[mleblond]

he does have an account for this forum.

[Christian.]

Howdy. I've been very busy lately. What are some ideas that you wanted to go over? The E-Tuning process is fairly straight forward. It can take several revisions, but that is simply because these vehicle are picky. The MAF calibration needs to be taken care of first, then we can start to focus on power in the various gears.

Christian.

[stormin84]

First question is approx cost of an E-tune.....

[Fobio]

This is an email I'm sending Christian in response.

Hey Christian,

The guys are looking to see if you can do something like a GB e-tune pkg for a bunch of us. For a forum of our relative small size, we have quite a bit of interest in this.

Originally, a couple of guys kicked around the idea of bringing you up here for a week. But considering the cost, what we would be asking of you and the results we were expecting, we were not sure we could've made it worthwhile for you if it's just the MS3/6 guys. Basically, we figured we'd have to get some Subie's too. Also, since I wasn't the guy pushing the idea, I don't have any clue as to if this is something you would even want to do...that was sometime late last year.

Now, with the proven performance of the AP and the potential of what ATR and what an e-tune (address PT knock, move tq curve higher in the rpm range, partial throttle tuning, etc) can do, we have about 8 MS3's that would do an e-tune, not counting the MS6 guys that we can also round up.

So what I would like to know is:

1. What kinda of pricing are we looking at if we can get a bunch of us together for this?

2. What can we expect to be gained performance wise from an e-tune? I ask ony because we have no Canadian results/dyno from a e-tune yet.

3. How would you like to approach this? We have guys looking for full-on power...and we have guys, like myself, that wknd-track the car on road courses, doing time attack/lapping/autox.

4. Can you give us a pkg price for the expected number of revisions required? Will we receive continued support? I ask this because of our harsh CDN winters...I wonder if we may also have a cold weather map.

Basically, guys who are looking to do the e-tune aren't asking for a GB because we are cheap...we just want to get a little more value out of it. So if the e-tune price is set and reasonable, all I would ask is perhaps 3.5 maps (91/93 street map for driveability, track map, and cold weather map)

Thanks Christian!

[swales]

I would be interested in a tune too depending on the price

[Christian.]

Fobio,

I will do my best to address your questions below.

1) The pricing for E-Tuning is $175 each for stock turbo Stage1 and Stage2 tunes, $250 for aftermarket turbo or massive bolt-on tunes. I cannot say that a group discount is possible since I will still spend the same amount of time on each vehicle in order to get things tuned to the customer's desires. These cars are not the easiest to tune and I am not sure we could effectively offer a discount and have enough time to take care of customer needs. Please, do not be offended, it is just how it is with tuning these platforms. It takes a while. Read the below section 3 to get an uderstanding of how many maps you will receive with a finished tune.
2) 1 Canadian HP = 1 American HP I cannot say what the results will be. Much of making power is determined by the quality of the installed hardware, fuel quality, and how well the car has been maintained. Some cars simply cannot make as much power as others because of excessive crankcase contamination, poor spark plugs, improper maintenance, etc. We have a Service Bulletin that has some good information. We will basically tune each vehicle until the datalogs tell us the tune is getting too aggressive. Thus far, the E-Tune participants have been satisfied.
3) Please do your best to communicate to me about how you want the car tuned. A drag tune is different that a road race tune...they are technically two different tunes. I can do what I can to get a few extra maps based on the final tune. I am actually enhancing how I handle the E-Tunes for the MS community. Once you verify these tunes I would like to make a few revisions for you. The ±X% will stand for boost variations in 1st through 4th gear (bumping boost in 5th and 6th gear is not suggested due to the increased loads). The ±1* will stand for ignition advance variations of one degree across the board at WOT for the 16 - 18.5 - 21psi.ptm map...or whatever the final boost level the car allows.

XXpsi.ptm
XXpsi+2%.ptm
XXpsi+4%.ptm
XXpsi-2%.ptm
XXpsi-4%.ptm
XXpsi+1*.ptm
XXpsi-1*.ptm

This should allow clients to modify the tune for higher octane unleaded fuels if you would like to go to the track, and to compensate for increased ambient temperatures that heat soak the IC. We can make maps with similar modifications. I think this is a good value, but that is my opinion.
4) It is too difficult for me to determine how many tunes it will take to finish. The more datalogs I get in each e-mail, the better. These cars are tuned per gear and we need to see logs from each gear in order to make the revisions more productive. It usually takes 2-4 MAF Batch datalogs and map revisions, then we can focus on making power.

Please let me know if you have any additional questions or concerns and I will do my best to respond as soon as possible.

Take care,
Christian.

[Fobio]

Thanks for the quick response Christian. I think each of us should do some thinking as to what we'd like to do individually. Would you like us to contact you individually on our own?

Guys, from what I'm reading, if you are interested in an e-tune, first thing you got to do is the MAF calibration as per the Cobb's tuning documentation.

[mleblond]

yeah this is good news. Can you do a winter map and summer map? lol i am sure calibration would be different. I am spiking at 21.5psi on a stage 1 map....something is up...

Any difference with meth?

[Christian.]

Thanks for the quick response Christian. I think each of us should do some thinking as to what we'd like to do individually. Would you like us to contact you individually on our own?

Guys, from what I'm reading, if you are interested in an e-tune, first thing you got to do is the MAF calibration as per the Cobb's tuning documentation.

It will be a little difficult to do things on a group basis because each tune is so customized to the specific vehicle.

Before any datalogs are taken, please do what you can to ensure that your charge pipes are sealed properly as well as your turbo inlet hardware. Any leaks pre or post MAF will create serious tuning issues. If you can work with a local shop to have your engine smoke or pressure checked, that would be ideal. Please be sure not to modify the car at any point in time during the E-Tuning process. You will want to have all hardware installed on the vehicle prior to starting the E-Tuning process as well. Changing hardware can require a new tune, so plan accordingly! Tuning with and without methanol, water, or water/methanol is an entirely different tune as well. The stock spark plugs should be replaced with Denso ITV22 plugs, those have worked well in the past.

For the initial tunes I do have a specific process for you to follow. Please read below.

First, we will ask you to datalog the proper part throttle and WOT MAF calibration settings for the fuel system, intake system and other hardware that will be used for calibrating the engine. To capture this data please follow the below directions:

This test should be done carefully. Allow the vehicle to idle for a few minutes, then drive for about 50 city miles at light throttle. If you do not have enough time for this, then 10 miles or 10 minutes of light street driving with a few key off/ons should suffice. Please make sure the ECU has not been reset or the battery disconnected for these 50 miles. Set the AccessPORT or AccessTUNER software up to datalog the standard 10 AccessPORT variables along with Long Term FT (LTFT). Be sure to have Mass Airflow displayed on the screen as you prepare to log. Start in 2nd gear at 1500 RPM then very slowly modulate throttle from there over the next 20 seconds, please be sure to accelerate at a steady rate until you exceed 100 grams/sec airflow. After you have completed this test up to 100 grams/sec, please put the car in neutral and allow the car to idle for a few seconds. Then steadily open the throttle while the car is in neutral until you exceed 30 grams/sec, then stop the datalog. This will allow us to see what type of learning the stock ECU is doing to compensate for the intake system that is installed on this car. Ideally, you want your LTFT values to be closer to zero. Anything +/- 8% is acceptable, but closer to 0 LTFT is ideal.

The objective is to observe the various adjustment that have been saved by the ECU at various breakpoints along the MAF curve. These breakpoints are based on grams/second airflow values.

After we finish the MAF Batch revisions, we will focus on tuning for power in each gear. Please be sure to add BAT to the datalog list. These logs are taken while keeping the car in a specific gear and accelerating from ~3200 RPM to just before redline while datalogging. Please be sure to label these datalogs apprioriately, 1stGear vA, 2ndGear vA, 3rdGear vB, 4thGear vC, etc. After these revisions are made, then we will have you capture datalogs as you go through the gears to make sure everything is performing appropriately.

Take care,
Christian.

[Touge Tuning]

Being from the Subaru community I would definitely recommend anyone looking for a tune to checkout Neetronics. They may not have done any Mazdaspeed3's yet but thats probably because the car is still pretty new. Paul at Neetronics has such a huge amount of experience tuning cars, he is an extremely smart guy.

Why doesnt someone talk to them about possibly getting them to tune there car and then post the results up here. You could probably work out a discount with them.