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Thread: Random MS3 Chat Thread

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    Default Re: Random MS3 Chat Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by pwdunmore View Post
    I would go for some 4032 alloy pistons instead of the 2618. http://www.speedperf6rmanc3.com/prod...-mzr-disi.html

    They are can take well above the power level you plan to be at and they will wear a lot better. With upgraded rods and pistons you can go with stock everything else minus the balance shaft and be well in the safe zone. I was planning to do a similar build that would be good for around 450hp once I get the block out of the MS6 I am parting out.

    Upgraded 4032 Pistons + Upgraded Rods + Stock bearings + Stock bolts

    I would get a South Bend Clutch. My Cp-e Stage 1 is very touchy and will be swapped out once it's done.

    A turbo will make the build complete but add up quickly will only be needed if you want north of 300HP.

    Manifolds are not needed and are expensive but they will help with the better AFR's per cylinder... not gonna deny that.
    Thanks for the info. We weren't ordering pistons until after the block was sent to the machine shop so we knew if we needed 87.5mm or 88mm, so I still have time to change. I'm not tied to any particular brand.

    I think we're going to replace the bearings anyways since we're already there. A bit of future proofing in case what I run the car in requires a bit more tune.

    Turbo I'm hoping to not need to replace (especially as it'll cost PIPs and be another $1000...). Manifolds we'll see about after I do some runs and get some temp data. That's not an immediate need.

    Thanks for the tip on the clutch. I'll do some more looking around. I have seen Southbend mentioned several times in various forums so seems worth a look.
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    Default Re: Random MS3 Chat Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by pwdunmore View Post
    I would go for some 4032 alloy pistons instead of the 2618. http://www.speedperf6rmanc3.com/prod...-mzr-disi.html

    They are can take well above the power level you plan to be at and they will wear a lot better. With upgraded rods and pistons you can go with stock everything else minus the balance shaft and be well in the safe zone. I was planning to do a similar build that would be good for around 450hp once I get the block out of the MS6 I am parting out.

    Upgraded 4032 Pistons + Upgraded Rods + Stock bearings + Stock bolts
    Are you sure about the 4032 vs 2618 alloy? Wiseco says the 4032 is weaker than the 2618, and 2618 is better designed for nitrous or boost applications.


    http://www.wiseco.com/Automotive/Pistons.aspx

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    Default Re: Random MS3 Chat Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by shift8 View Post
    Ok so I'm in the process of starting an engine build (pending), with the purposes of moving towards track car/occasional driver (I have 2 daily cars for wife and I).

    Likely going K1 rods and Wiseco pistons (9.5:1 compression, no change there from stock). I'm targeting OTA so being careful of what PIPs I'm taking on. Purpose of build is for reliability, fix cyl 3 compression issues, and will effectively "detune" what the engine is capable of. Target under 300 hp.
    If you're targeting OTA, then you should look into using the Dyno Plot option to classify your car to avoid taking the PIP hit for certain mods.

    Quote Originally Posted by shift8 View Post
    Part of the build is considering what to do about the clutch and flywheel. Is going to a lighter flywheel worth it? What do I have to worry about with on the MS3 platform when I do that? Does shifting get weird? I'll likely be driving to the track for the first season before I flip over to trailering in a year or two.
    Can't comment on the single-mass/lighter flywheel as I have not driven an MS3 with a lightened SMFW on the track.

    A grabbier clutch, however, I have driven with a OEM dual-mass flywheel (DMFW). With a higher tq capacity clutch, you'll need to have some finesse during heel-toe downshifts to not buck and throw off the weight transfer/balance.

    Quote Originally Posted by shift8 View Post

    Any other tips around engine builds, things to worry about now, parts to swap now?

    As I said, this isn't a max HP approach, but rather a consistent high RPM in a track setting approach. OTA is the current target so changes need to be carefully thought here.
    You'll need a Power Steering cooler if you plan to do Mosport GP (big track). With high RPM turns, you will cook a Gen1 power steering pump with the stock power steering "cooler".

    Also, look into an auxiliary oil cooler, in addition to the stock oil cooler, if you plan to do Mosport GP all out for more than 4-5 laps at a time.

    Quote Originally Posted by shift8 View Post
    Depending on condition of my k04 I may run that a bit longer, and just worry about how I tune it to keep temps to a reasonable value as much as possible.
    At the track, the K04 is ideal for the gearing of the MS3, otherwise, exit acceleration out of low speed corners will/could be hampered. The GTX2867 that I have is close to the K04 but it is still 500 rpm behind the K04 in build up (K04 will spool 500 rpm earlier)

    Quote Originally Posted by shift8 View Post
    Eventually I may consider the Damond Ford intake swap (better air distribution) and better exhaust manifold to get the hot air away from the engine faster. Those require PIPs so will be (maybe) done after a couple seasons of running and seeing where I land. Based on research I believe a lot of the cyl 3 issues has to do with uneven air distribution at the intake and exhaust. Some have said the balance shaft could play a part. Plan to do BSD and balance everything else.
    Even with the balance shaft removed, the inline 4 will still have 2nd order vibrations that you will not be able to cancel out even with an engine balance.

    The only benefit with a BSD is that you can then run an oil baffle in the oil pan. An oil baffle would be beneficial for high G corners.

    Quote Originally Posted by shift8 View Post
    Was originally going to try and sell the MS3, but between the low value here, it being a paid off car for several years, enjoying the platform, and the cost of Miatas and the like right now, figured I'd just go the forged internal approach, for better or worse.

    Experience and info welcome
    Other recommendation is to run a good oil like Motul 300V (5w40) for the track days. 300V is expensive, but so is another engine, and 300V is shear stable at high temperatures.

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    Default Re: Random MS3 Chat Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by MajesticBlueNTO View Post
    If you're targeting OTA, then you should look into using the Dyno Plot option to classify your car to avoid taking the PIP hit for certain mods.



    Can't comment on the single-mass/lighter flywheel as I have not driven an MS3 with a lightened SMFW on the track.

    A grabbier clutch, however, I have driven with a OEM dual-mass flywheel (DMFW). With a higher tq capacity clutch, you'll need to have some finesse during heel-toe downshifts to not buck and throw off the weight transfer/balance.



    You'll need a Power Steering cooler if you plan to do Mosport GP (big track). With high RPM turns, you will cook a Gen1 power steering pump with the stock power steering "cooler".

    Also, look into an auxiliary oil cooler, in addition to the stock oil cooler, if you plan to do Mosport GP all out for more than 4-5 laps at a time.


    At the track, the K04 is ideal for the gearing of the MS3, otherwise, exit acceleration out of low speed corners will/could be hampered. The GTX2867 that I have is close to the K04 but it is still 500 rpm behind the K04 in build up (K04 will spool 500 rpm earlier)



    Even with the balance shaft removed, the inline 4 will still have 2nd order vibrations that you will not be able to cancel out even with an engine balance.

    The only benefit with a BSD is that you can then run an oil baffle in the oil pan. An oil baffle would be beneficial for high G corners.



    Other recommendation is to run a good oil like Motul 300V (5w40) for the track days. 300V is expensive, but so is another engine, and 300V is shear stable at high temperatures.
    Awesome thanks for all the info here, that's incredibly valuable. I've seen some of your other posts around brakes as well which will be useful going forward.

    I'll likely just ignore the lighter flywheel for now and look more into spending in areas to keep temps lower. That was kind of my instinct anyways but thought I'd ask for any experience.

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    Default Re: Random MS3 Chat Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by shift8 View Post
    Are you sure about the 4032 vs 2618 alloy? Wiseco says the 4032 is weaker than the 2618, and 2618 is better designed for nitrous or boost applications.


    http://www.wiseco.com/Automotive/Pistons.aspx
    If you were doing a something for north of 450hp I would go to the 2618 but a better designed 4032 will be more reliable long term.

    All builds are different and since you don't plan to go Aux fueling + big turbo the 4032 will be fine.
    It's what I would have done but the 4032 pistons were not out when I did the first engine build.

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    Default Re: Random MS3 Chat Thread

    I ran the Southbend Stage 3 Daily...I've also briefly driven @DLYDRVN 's ACT 6 puck...plus of course a couple stock ones. I'd say mildly lighter single mass is the way to go for a variety of driving...something in the 18-22lb range is probably ideal. I don't think I'd enjoy one that's really light (sub 15lbs).

    Also, if doing it again I would go puck design over full face...the engagement was a concern but DLYDRVN's 6 puck was easier and lighter than my Southbend was.
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    Default Re: Random MS3 Chat Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by shift8 View Post
    Awesome thanks for all the info here, that's incredibly valuable. I've seen some of your other posts around brakes as well which will be useful going forward.

    I'll likely just ignore the lighter flywheel for now and look more into spending in areas to keep temps lower. That was kind of my instinct anyways but thought I'd ask for any experience.
    If you're changing your clutch, you technically should change the flywheel.

    I sent you my part list in PM, a few comments with that setup:

    * Koyo Rad will limit your ability to go FMIC as it is thicker than the stock/oem rad and pushes everything back 1/4" or so
    * <= 300 whp, the stock oil cooler should be ok with the track. Prior to the build, I ran the stock oil cooler with no oil temp gauges and no fks were given (and I was around 280-290 whp then).

    I noticed that JBR released an oil cooler kit for the MS3, http://edgeautosport.com/jbr-oil-coo...d-3-2007-2013/, which also says that a FMIC may not work with it.

    And, to be honest, a FMIC has very little benefit over an upgraded TMIC at the track, especially once moving at speed. FMIC adds plumbing that will need to have boost "fill up" between shifts and after getting off the throttle, so cases for more perceptible lag.

    going bigger than a K04, you'll have to keep that in mind too.

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    Default Re: Random MS3 Chat Thread

    north of 450 whp, the MS3 won't be competitive at OTA. You're looking at SGT1 based on Dyno Plot, or Mod3 based on PIPs that you'll need to support a "driveable" 450 whp.

    at that point you're looking at a cage (at least), harness, HNR, racing suit, fire suppression....and at that point, there are better track cars (and faster stock ones) for the money.

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    Default Re: Random MS3 Chat Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by MajesticBlueNTO View Post
    If you're changing your clutch, you technically should change the flywheel.

    I sent you my part list in PM, a few comments with that setup:

    * Koyo Rad will limit your ability to go FMIC as it is thicker than the stock/oem rad and pushes everything back 1/4" or so
    * <= 300 whp, the stock oil cooler should be ok with the track. Prior to the build, I ran the stock oil cooler with no oil temp gauges and no fks were given (and I was around 280-290 whp then).

    I noticed that JBR released an oil cooler kit for the MS3, http://edgeautosport.com/jbr-oil-coo...d-3-2007-2013/, which also says that a FMIC may not work with it.

    And, to be honest, a FMIC has very little benefit over an upgraded TMIC at the track, especially once moving at speed. FMIC adds plumbing that will need to have boost "fill up" between shifts and after getting off the throttle, so cases for more perceptible lag.

    going bigger than a K04, you'll have to keep that in mind too.
    Yea I have a CPe TMIC and had mostly planned to run that unless I found a need to change.

    Noticed that Damond has a power steering intercooler and the JBR oil cooler. Was planning to go spin on conversion in order to add the sandwich plate and get oil temp and pressure gauges. Looks like necessary for JBR oil intercooler too.

    Working on building my way up the stack and trying not to go crazy all at once. The closer I can stay to stock while keeping the engine safe is my current goal. I can always add more toys later on...

    Next main consideration is getting brakes setup as well. There seems to be a fair amount of info in that area though so should be simple enough just doing the research.

    And yes, I noticed your part list and figured it might come in handy

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    Default Re: Random MS3 Chat Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by MajesticBlueNTO View Post
    north of 450 whp, the MS3 won't be competitive at OTA. You're looking at SGT1 based on Dyno Plot, or Mod3 based on PIPs that you'll need to support a "driveable" 450 whp.

    at that point you're looking at a cage (at least), harness, HNR, racing suit, fire suppression....and at that point, there are better track cars (and faster stock ones) for the money.
    That makes a lot of sense. My plan is to try and stay in the GT1 or SGT3 classes and no higher. Right now I'm barely into SGT3 so with a dyno plot I can hopefully tune up or down between those classes.

    You take a lot of PIPs just adding an AP. 3 for the AP initially (free 1 point included for upgraded HPFP), then another 3 if the ECU controls boost pressure.

    It looks like forged rods and pistons provide 0 PIP as long as you don't change the compression ratio.

    Also taking 4+2 PIP for my Bilstein B12 (static) suspension unfortunately. I'll likely go back to a coilover setup after a year of running and understanding how the car feels and handles and adjust from there.

    Any suggestions on a reasonable class to shoot for? It looks like GT1 or SGT3 should be reasonable based on what cars sit in those classes at stock setups.

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    Default Re: Random MS3 Chat Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by shift8 View Post
    Yea I have a CPe TMIC and had mostly planned to run that unless I found a need to change.

    Noticed that Damond has a power steering intercooler and the JBR oil cooler. Was planning to go spin on conversion in order to add the sandwich plate and get oil temp and pressure gauges. Looks like necessary for JBR oil intercooler too.

    Working on building my way up the stack and trying not to go crazy all at once. The closer I can stay to stock while keeping the engine safe is my current goal. I can always add more toys later on...

    Next main consideration is getting brakes setup as well. There seems to be a fair amount of info in that area though so should be simple enough just doing the research.

    And yes, I noticed your part list and figured it might come in handy
    The JBR Oil Cooler Kit appears to use a sandwich plate that doesn't have a thermostat...for the track, that's ok as the oil will heat up fast. For the price, it's a decent deal. I don't know about JBR quality now though as I haven't paid any attention to the latest with JBR and only remember the sht slinging on Facebook a couple years ago.

    The JBR Oil Cooler Kit will also allow you to run gauges as it has the bungs for the gauge units.

    I have the Damond power steering cooler kit. Well put together and a PS pump saver at GP.

    Brakes and tires would be your bang for buck mods. The stickier the tires the better. Time isn't made up in a straight line but, rather, how much speed you can carry through corners and that's dependent on how much Gs your tires can handle. You could have a 450 hp car but with shit tires, it can be slower than a 300 whp car around a track.

    Bridgestone RE71Rs - street tires with near R compound level grip (perhaps more grip than R compounds from 2011)

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    Default Re: Random MS3 Chat Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by MajesticBlueNTO View Post
    The JBR Oil Cooler Kit appears to use a sandwich plate that doesn't have a thermostat...for the track, that's ok as the oil will heat up fast. For the price, it's a decent deal. I don't know about JBR quality now though as I haven't paid any attention to the latest with JBR and only remember the sht slinging on Facebook a couple years ago.

    The JBR Oil Cooler Kit will also allow you to run gauges as it has the bungs for the gauge units.

    I have the Damond power steering cooler kit. Well put together and a PS pump saver at GP.

    Brakes and tires would be your bang for buck mods. The stickier the tires the better. Time isn't made up in a straight line but, rather, how much speed you can carry through corners and that's dependent on how much Gs your tires can handle. You could have a 450 hp car but with shit tires, it can be slower than a 300 whp car around a track.

    Bridgestone RE71Rs - street tires with near R compound level grip (perhaps more grip than R compounds from 2011)
    I currently have Enkei 17x9 +40 (5mm spacer unfortunately for clearance but I got ones with extended hubs that match the bore size so they are almost acting like thick centering rings). ARP extended studs and open ended steel muteki lugs.

    Have Continental ExtremeContact Sport tires now which I haven't gotten more than 250km on. I'll run those for a season an see where that gets me. I originally had RE71 rubber when I got the car. I liked them enough and were predictable. Issue I had was they sucked in the wet.

    Overall I'll be lucky if I'm able to run more than 2 or 3 sessions a year until the kids get a bit older.

    Thanks again for all the info. Much appreciated.

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    Default Re: Random MS3 Chat Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by shift8 View Post
    That makes a lot of sense. My plan is to try and stay in the GT1 or SGT3 classes and no higher. Right now I'm barely into SGT3 so with a dyno plot I can hopefully tune up or down between those classes.

    You take a lot of PIPs just adding an AP. 3 for the AP initially (free 1 point included for upgraded HPFP), then another 3 if the ECU controls boost pressure.

    It looks like forged rods and pistons provide 0 PIP as long as you don't change the compression ratio.

    Also taking 4+2 PIP for my Bilstein B12 (static) suspension unfortunately. I'll likely go back to a coilover setup after a year of running and understanding how the car feels and handles and adjust from there.

    Any suggestions on a reasonable class to shoot for? It looks like GT1 or SGT3 should be reasonable based on what cars sit in those classes at stock setups.
    take a look at the OTA results from this year and years past.

    https://time-attack.ca/results/

    GT1 you have to contend with Carsten in his prepped M3.

    SGT3, you just pray a Vette doesn't show up.

    GT2 is probably where the MS3 would have a chance to be competitive.

    MOD3 or higher is where the MS3 stands a chance to make top 3, sometimes just by showing up

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    Default Re: Random MS3 Chat Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by shift8 View Post
    I currently have Enkei 17x9 +40 (5mm spacer unfortunately for clearance but I got ones with extended hubs that match the bore size so they are almost acting like thick centering rings). ARP extended studs and open ended steel muteki lugs.

    Have Continental ExtremeContact Sport tires now which I haven't gotten more than 250km on. I'll run those for a season an see where that gets me. I originally had RE71 rubber when I got the car. I liked them enough and were predictable. Issue I had was they sucked in the wet.

    Overall I'll be lucky if I'm able to run more than 2 or 3 sessions a year until the kids get a bit older.

    Thanks again for all the info. Much appreciated.
    sell the Contis and put the money towards RE71R or something as sticky as the RE71R.

    the Contis are barely better than the PSS and get trounced by the PSS replacement PS4 in the dry. Unless you plan on going to wet track days (where it pretty much equalled the PS4 in the Tire Rack test), you will hate the Contis at the track.

    Granted I don't know your level of experience at the track so perhaps the Contis are better suited for less experience as the ceiling will be lower on the Contis (the speed you can get in trouble with will be lower and a street tire will tend to sing earlier to let you know when it is approaching its limit)

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    Default Re: Random MS3 Chat Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by MajesticBlueNTO View Post
    sell the Contis and put the money towards RE71R or something as sticky as the RE71R.

    the Contis are barely better than the PSS and get trounced by the PSS replacement PS4 in the dry. Unless you plan on going to wet track days (where it pretty much equalled the PS4 in the Tire Rack test), you will hate the Contis at the track.

    Granted I don't know your level of experience at the track so perhaps the Contis are better suited for less experience as the ceiling will be lower on the Contis (the speed you can get in trouble with will be lower and a street tire will tend to sing earlier to let you know when it is approaching its limit)
    Yea all my experience is in the sim not real life so I pretty much expect this year to be a throw away /learning year. My hope is to finish at least one place above last place

    When I started the build I expected to be daily with maybe a day or two of track time a year. Things changed for us and the MS3 was freed up as a dedicated track car, so I basically wasted a couple of decisions.

    The reason for the Conti was a PSS replacement that was good in the wet. The big difference in GSM between these and PSS was that the Conti were more predictable where they would fall off vs PSS being great until they weren't.

    If I could find someone to switch out I would. Maybe still worth a look to see if someone needed a set of 245/45R17 tires for daily use. I took them out a couple times on some twisty roads around here and really liked them. Could see maybe where they fall off on track though.

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    Default Re: Random MS3 Chat Thread

    Maybe I should have started a "Prep for OTA" thread...

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    Default Re: Random MS3 Chat Thread

    Hey guys, anybody know who’s speed3 this was or if the person was a member before?

    http://www.autotrader.ca/a/Mazda/Maz...clk=1&showVs=1


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