loki's logs

[breakfasteatre]

so with you engine apart, 4 free cylinders, im thinking, i take one cylinder, you take another, chris has another, and we have one open. We can hold hands, itll be like back in the day playing swords.

right?

[breakfasteatre]

yeah, that was weird and random

[loki]

yeah, that was weird and random

I just watched the roast of Charlie Sheen.

but with the amount of drugs you must be on to post that, maybe it should have been the roast of Breakfasteatre. lay off the tiger blood. haha

[breakfasteatre]

that shit was rude man! holy, the woman in the short dress, omg i was laughing but it was harrshhh

[loki]

off to take some logs.

taking the laptop with me to fine tune on-the-fly.

will post up the results when I get back.

[boyracer]

Go get 'em

[Fack_Dude]

off to take some logs.

taking the laptop with me to fine tune on-the-fly.

will post up the results when I get back.

You do that!!!! Make sure you redline the bitch in 4th

[loki]

OK. here's the 3 logs I pulled for the night. All 3 were 3rd gear logs.

So the first log was after I reflashed the map (tune) after Bluestreak and I did a bit of tinkering (ok I really didn't do anything, just tried to follow along..)

3rd Gear - 1 - 11Sep26 - stage1(91) - modified.xlsx

After having a look at that log, there was some crazy KR there especially at the end as it went beyond 6200 rpm. Car felt fine and the engine sounded normal. Is this real knock?

Anyway, pulled over and started adjusting the map (tune). Changed a bunch of the MAF calibration and turns out I put the formula in wrong and sent everything in the wrong direction as you will see in the next 2 logs where the actual AFR gets further away from my target...

Anyway, I reduced the boost from 5500 to redline and also adjusted the WGDC to try and hit the boost more accurately. Again in the 2nd log, there was some pretty crazy knock..the 3rd log I didn't pull all the way to 6700rpm and knock was pretty minimal.

3rd Gear - 2 - 11Sep26 - stage1(91) - revised boost.xlsx

3rd Gear - 3 - 11Sep26 - stage1(91).xlsx

Anyway the last log was just an afterthought and decided why the hell not on the ramp. Very slight uphill. shouldn't really make a drastic difference.

Since I've been home, I have readjusted the MAF voltages again, and tweaked the WGDC's some more. Will have to do some more logs tomorrow night again to see how that went. So question for the senior tuners, you'll see on my logs I've added a formula for the delta AFR. I have been zeroing in on the off targets and adjusting the MAF voltage in that range. Is this a good or bad idea?

awaiting your thoughts, while I go sleep and pray that I don't blow up my sh!t.

[BlueStreak]

Now you have a better(ish) idea of what is going on with the car after enabling your knock sensor up to redline.

I say "ish" because the KR you are seeing near redline may actually be engine noise (which is why Mazda disables the knock sensor at 5750 and COBB provides the OTS tunes with the same knock sensor setting).

A few ways to determine if it is real knock:
- pull timing in the areas where you see knock. If KR stops, it was real knock. If not, most likely phantom.
- richen AFRs by .5 points or so. If KR stops, it was real knock. If not, most likely phantom.
- run a higher octane fuel or spray meth (if you have).

If you have come to conclusion that it is phantom knock, you can reduce the sensitivity in the high rpm, high load area by altering the values in the "Knock Retard Offset" table. ONLY if it's legit phantom KR.

Unfortunately, I'm on my phone right now and can't see your datalogs. I'll have a look once I'm near a computer.

Oh and MAP is generally the "Mass Air Pressure" sensor or the sensor that "reads boost". At first, that's what I thought you were referring to. Then I realized you meant the tune.

Cheers.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[loki]

Oh and MAP is generally the "Mass Air Pressure" sensor or the sensor that "reads boost". At first, that's what I thought you were referring to. Then I realized you meant the tune.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

yeh I was thinking that when I wrote it, but it was 2am and said meh. I've edited the post again to clarify. When you actually open the logs hopefully you're not like "WUH DE RASSCLAAAAAT!! KNOCK!!"

we shall see.

[loki]

I say "ish" because the KR you are seeing near redline may actually be engine noise (which is why Mazda disables the knock sensor at 5750 and COBB provides the OTS tunes with the same knock sensor setting).

A few ways to determine if it is real knock:
- pull timing in the areas where you see knock. If KR stops, it was real knock. If not, most likely phantom.
- richen AFRs by .5 points or so. If KR stops, it was real knock. If not, most likely phantom.
- run a higher octane fuel or spray meth (if you have).

If you have come to conclusion that it is phantom knock, you can reduce the sensitivity in the high rpm, high load area by altering the values in the "Knock Retard Offset" table. ONLY if it's legit phantom KR.

Tonight I will drop the AFR to about 11 from about 6000 rpm and beyond and see what happens. If that doesn't do anything I'll add an octane booster and see if that changes anything.

If it is phantom knock which from what you said Mazda and Cobb seem to expect, then it would make sense to have sensor off or less sensitive because clearly from the logs you can see that the ECU is dumping a ton of fuel to try and cut the knock.

hopefully though it isn't real knock. tonight will tell.

[Fobio]

Here's a few things to consider.

- knock is not always audible when you're in the cabin @ crusing speeds
- knock retard = timing retard...whether it's real or not, it'll cause your engine to pull timing and thus loss of power
- before proceeding to make more power, the knock issue should be resolved
- you don't have knock in most of the rpm range...that's a good start
- you're already running pretty rich in the areas you're knocking
- when you refer to adjusting MAF voltage, are you doing in the percentage that it's off your commanded AFR, by adjusting the MAF sensor's g/s? [the terminology needs to be apporpriate/consistent so others can relate and assist]
- slight uphills do make a difference to load
- ...keep an open mind and not dwell on what you want to see...rather focus on what the car/log is telling you...

since at the first seminar, you did not have the AP then, so it was hard to follow along...now that you've gotten your toes wet, you should come to our next seminar that will focus on using the newest ATR and tuning techniques:

*MSpeed* Tuning Seminar - 2nd Edition

And of course, since you've been working with Dave, it's not much of a stretch to have him apply his MSpeed Custom Tune for your car, and work with you each step along your modification path to ensure you're getting the most out of your mods.

At the very least, think of the tuning seminar and along with a custom tune, as insurance from blowing your sh!t up.

[breakfasteatre]

cruise up n down the 404?

[loki]

Here's a few things to consider.

- knock is not always audible when you're in the cabin @ crusing speeds
- knock retard = timing retard...whether it's real or not, it'll cause your engine to pull timing and thus loss of power
- before proceeding to make more power, the knock issue should be resolved
- you don't have knock in most of the rpm range...that's a good start
- you're already running pretty rich in the areas you're knocking- when you refer to adjusting MAF voltage, are you doing in the percentage that it's off your commanded AFR, by adjusting the MAF sensor's g/s? [the terminology needs to be apporpriate/consistent so others can relate and assist]
- slight uphills do make a difference to load
- ...keep an open mind and not dwell on what you want to see...rather focus on what the car/log is telling you...

since at the first seminar, you did not have the AP then, so it was hard to follow along...now that you've gotten your toes wet, you should come to our next seminar that will focus on using the newest ATR and tuning techniques:

*MSpeed* Tuning Seminar - 2nd Edition

And of course, since you've been working with Dave, it's not much of a stretch to have him apply his MSpeed Custom Tune for your car, and work with you each step along your modification path to ensure you're getting the most out of your mods.

At the very least, think of the tuning seminar and along with a custom tune, as insurance from blowing your sh!t up.

first to address, the bold items.

1. isn't the car running rich because it is knocking?

2. and yes I'm applying that percentage to the g/s for the corresponding MAF voltage wherever the actual AFR is above or below my commanded AFR.


By working on this tuning alot by myself is how I learn more and more about the car. I need to be hands on in order to gain experience. To be honest I'm not really worried about blowing anything up because I'm not being super aggressive and I'm airing more towards the cautious side as the tune progresses.

[BlueStreak]

Don't use octane booster. I'll explain later.

Busy!

But don't use it!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Fobio]

first to address, the bold items.

1. isn't the car running rich because it is knocking?

2. and yes I'm applying that percentage to the g/s for the corresponding MAF voltage wherever the actual AFR is above or below my commanded AFR.


By working on this tuning alot by myself is how I learn more and more about the car. I need to be hands on in order to gain experience. To be honest I'm not really worried about blowing anything up because I'm not being super aggressive and I'm airing more towards the cautious side as the tune progresses.

Well...you did write this...all worried and all...

awaiting your thoughts, while I go sleep and pray that I don't blow up my sh!t.

even with 0.7 KR, your car's not in limp mode and you're @ 11.3...for reference, the cars I tune run 11.8 and leaner, and safely.

you car also upped boost around that area...this is what I'm referring to: you might want to run 17psi at redline, but your car with its current tune is saying "No"...

adjusting the MAF sensor is so that your commanded AFR matches your logged AFR, and should be adjusted as little times as possible. The possibility of making an error "on-the-fly" doing road-side tuning outweighs any appeals or benefit it may have. For reference, the fully bolted K04 I've tuned, I only had to adjust the MAF sensor once.

Don't use octane booster. I'll explain later.

Busy!

But don't use it!

this too Chris...before you sort out your tune and pin down the culprit, masking the symptoms doesn't solve anything.

this is where our seminar comes in where we get to share our best practices.

[loki]

Fobio,

don't read into my post that I made last night at 2am as worry, but rather humour, and I won't read into your most recent posts as "loki you won't be able to do it"

this is where our seminar comes in where we get to share our best practices

I have no doubt that the seminar will be extremely well put together and very informative (as was the first one), but isn't this also what the TM3 forum is all about? People who have a similar interest helping people that share that interest and excitement.

The idea of tuning my car excites me. It is the reason why I went to bed at 2am even though I had to be up at 6am to go to work. It's the same reason that you're up at all odd hours gathering information and working on yours and others' tune.

masking the symptoms doesn't solve anything

as Bluestreak suggested, trying to see if it is true knock by running a higher octane fuel would help eliminate that from the equation. If I run the higher octane and it's still knocking then there is definitely a problem.

adjusting the MAF sensor is so that your commanded AFR matches your logged AFR, and should be adjusted as little times as possible. The possibility of making an error "on-the-fly" doing road-side tuning outweighs any appeals or benefit it may have. For reference, the fully bolted K04 I've tuned, I only had to adjust the MAF sensor once.

I understand the purpose of adjusting the MAF sensor. To be honest the calibration is pretty good and I was just trying to select a few pockets where it varied by about 1 or so. And yes I totally agree that the "on-the-fly" road side tuning can lead to some errors, especially at 1am. Even with my engineering background I still applied the percentage in the wrong direction which lead to the area I adjust being even more off target. I've dealt with that when I got home and will see from the logs tonight if everything has come back to where it should be.

you might want to run 17psi at redline, but your car with its current tune is saying "No"...

It was actually Bluestreak who suggested we aim for 17.5 psi because there was room with the WGDC. I've since cut it right down to 16.5 psi beyond 5500 rpm, and 16 psi from 6000 rpm to redline, and the car should have no problem hitting those targets.


With all that said, I trully respect your experience, and I've learnt alot about the way you diagnose problems from your older posts when commenting on posted logs, and I have no doubt that you will successfully tune many more speed3's as you develop the MSpeed Tuning endeavour as there is a huge market out there for those kinds of services, as you have no doubt discovered. If anyone approached me in an effort to get their car tuned, and tuner properly, I wouldn't hesitate for a moment to send them your way.

However, a new generation of tuners needs to step up and start learning the ropes in order to one day (hopefully soon) provide solid advice with the confidence that people can follow their advice safely, and if this does not happen, well then there is going to be alot of empty space here on TM3, and I have already started to notice this. There are some members on here that are starting to do that. I hope to one day be one of them, which is why I will continue to tune and if I make a mistake, I'll keep on going, even if I have to calibrate my MAF 15 times to get it to where it should be.

[Fack_Dude]

Fobio,

don't read into my post that I made last night at 2am as worry, but rather humour, and I won't read into your most recent posts as "loki you won't be able to do it"



I have no doubt that the seminar will be extremely well put together and very informative (as was the first one), but isn't this also what the TM3 forum is all about? People who have a similar interest helping people that share that interest and excitement.

The idea of tuning my car excites me. It is the reason why I went to bed at 2am even though I had to be up at 6am to go to work. It's the same reason that you're up at all odd hours gathering information and working on yours and others' tune.



as Bluestreak suggested, trying to see if it is true knock by running a higher octane fuel would help eliminate that from the equation. If I run the higher octane and it's still knocking then there is definitely a problem.



I understand the purpose of adjusting the MAF sensor. To be honest the calibration is pretty good and I was just trying to select a few pockets where it varied by about 1 or so. And yes I totally agree that the "on-the-fly" road side tuning can lead to some errors, especially at 1am. Even with my engineering background I still applied the percentage in the wrong direction which lead to the area I adjust being even more off target. I've dealt with that when I got home and will see from the logs tonight if everything has come back to where it should be.



It was actually Bluestreak who suggested we aim for 17.5 psi because there was room with the WGDC. I've since cut it right down to 16.5 psi beyond 5500 rpm, and 16 psi from 6000 rpm to redline, and the car should have no problem hitting those targets.


With all that said, I trully respect your experience, and I've learnt alot about the way you diagnose problems from your older posts when commenting on posted logs, and I have no doubt that you will successfully tune many more speed3's as you develop the MSpeed Tuning endeavour as there is a huge market out there for those kinds of services, as you have no doubt discovered. If anyone approached me in an effort to get their car tuned, and tuner properly, I wouldn't hesitate for a moment to send them your way.

However, a new generation of tuners needs to step up and start learning the ropes in order to one day (hopefully soon) provide solid advice with the confidence that people can follow their advice safely, and if this does not happen, well then there is going to be alot of empty space here on TM3, and I have already started to notice this. There are some members on here that are starting to do that. I hope to one day be one of them, which is why I will continue to tune and if I make a mistake, I'll keep on going, even if I have to calibrate my MAF 15 times to get it to where it should be.

Well......why aren't you out logging............try to do a few 4th gear wots...................

[Fobio]

At the end of the day, it's about results...and I've been offering ppl the avenue to achieve results and have seeded the effort to spread the word and a particular approach to tuning that will help others get the results they are looking for.

Ultimately, it's very difficult to get the point across over the Internet with regards to all the minute nuances I notice and would comment on. It best to communicate and establish a common understanding verbally. But this isn't about the seminars...

All the tools and info needed to tune your car is, surprisingly, already shared in this section. Piecing them all together and applying it, is what is challenging and fun. As you have said, others have done it, so there's no doubt that the information already seeded out there is bearing fruits.

Lastly, I didn't have the heart to just say it, but I think you're capable of handling it.

So without mincing words...your tune right now isn't working the way you want it to. The changes you have described in this page that you are making are not the type of changes I'd recommend. By commanding 17.5psi and dialing down now is already in contradiction as to your claimed approach of tuning up, as what we have already prescribed in our first seminar. I recommend that you review some of the tuning advise shared here on TM3, along with some up-to-date techniques on MSF for the new ATR so you can take advantage of what they have to offer. A lot of advise has been shared on this thread alone, including doing a 4th gear log [not turning, not uphill, traction control off, etc]. This is not to say you can't do it...as others already have. I am just trying to say you're going about it in a way that will create more variables for you to chase down rather than address the issues and obstacles stopping you from getting the results you desire. I recommend that you adjust your approach, rather than chasing targets.

[loki]

Well......why aren't you out logging............try to do a few 4th gear wots...................

First I must feed my dog, give my wife some attention, then lay down 7 square feet of paving stones in my backyard then I can go play.

It's like I'm a kid again.

[loki]

At the end of the day, it's about results...and I've been offering ppl the avenue to achieve results and have seeded the effort to spread the word and a particular approach to tuning that will help others get the results they are looking for.

agreed. No one is trying to take that away from you.

Ultimately, it's very difficult to get the point across over the Internet with regards to all the minute nuances I notice and would comment on. It best to communicate and establish a common understanding verbally. But this isn't about the seminars...

for sure. nothing beats face time vs post...wait...misunderstanding...repost....wait... etc etc. The seminars are a great idea.

Lastly, I didn't have the heart to just say it, but I think you're capable of handling it.

honesty will always work best with me. I deal with contractors all day and they by no means sugar coat the way they talk to me (although they're usually wrong )

By commanding 17.5psi and dialing down now is already in contradiction as to your claimed approach of tuning up, as what we have already prescribed in our first seminar.

I already mentioned that it was not I who commanded the 17.5 psi. I actually originally had commanded 16 and was working my way up. Now I am starting that again. You mentioned you tune cars with AFR of 11.8 and leaner. I started at 11 and currently have worked my way up to 11.5. This is in line with the logic introduced in your first seminar.

I recommend that you review some of the tuning advise shared here on TM3, along with some up-to-date techniques on MSF for the new ATR so you can take advantage of what they have to offer. A lot of advise has been shared on this thread alone, including doing a 4th gear log [not turning, not uphill, traction control off, etc]. This is not to say you can't do it...as others already have. I am just trying to say you're going about it in a way that will create more variables for you to chase down rather than address the issues and obstacles stopping you from getting the results you desire. I recommend that you adjust your approach, rather than chasing targets.

I can see how the variables can add up quickly and keeping track of all of them can be mind blowing.

I will do some more research in particular how Snotrocket and Fywdyl managed to dial in their tunes and the advice that was given to them.

At the end of the day, what I am trying to say is, I want a bit of a nudge in the right direction as oppose to just have someone do it for me.

that is all.

p.s. with regards to the 4th gear log, I agree that you can achieve more data as it's a longer pull, however, not everyone here is a complete nut like you going up and down limiting 4th gear. At the limit of 3rd I'm comfortable going out and doing logs at anytime. I rely on my car for work to get to construction sites and visit clients all around southern Ontario. Without my car I cannot do my job, so what do you think my boss will say if I lose my license because I was pulled over doing 4th gear logs trying to dial in my tune.

Back home in Barbados I drove everywhere balls to the wall without a care in the world, but up here I have too much to lose. The benefit of 4th gear log vs 3rd gear log just isn't worth it for what I am trying to achieve.

[Fobio]

agreed. No one is trying to take that away from you.



for sure. nothing beats face time vs post...wait...misunderstanding...repost....wait... etc etc. The seminars are a great idea.



honesty will always work best with me. I deal with contractors all day and they by no means sugar coat the way they talk to me (although they're usually wrong )



I already mentioned that it was not I who commanded the 17.5 psi. I actually originally had commanded 16 and was working my way up. Now I am starting that again. You mentioned you tune cars with AFR of 11.8 and leaner. I started at 11 and currently have worked my way up to 11.5. This is in line with the logic introduced in your first seminar.




I can see how the variables can add up quickly and keeping track of all of them can be mind blowing.

I will do some more research in particular how Snotrocket and Fywdyl managed to dial in their tunes and the advice that was given to them.

At the end of the day, what I am trying to say is, I want a bit of a nudge in the right direction as oppose to just have someone do it for me.

that is all.

p.s. with regards to the 4th gear log, I agree that you can achieve more data as it's a longer pull, however, not everyone here is a complete nut like you going up and down limiting 4th gear. At the limit of 3rd I'm comfortable going out and doing logs at anytime. I rely on my car for work to get to construction sites and visit clients all around southern Ontario. Without my car I cannot do my job, so what do you think my boss will say if I lose my license because I was pulled over doing 4th gear logs trying to dial in my tune.

Back home in Barbados I drove everywhere balls to the wall without a care in the world, but up here I have too much to lose. The benefit of 4th gear log vs 3rd gear log just isn't worth it for what I am trying to achieve.

Be safe and enjoy your car. This is not to say you have to do it this way or that or else. It's just that it's also easier for us to have a continuous and progressive dialogue once you start making changes.

With regards to 4th gear logs...it's because it's the gear closest to a 1:1 ratio, as well, depending on tire/traction etc, 4th gear logs will likely have less traction issue and thus, anomalies to address. I'd think once I impress upon you, the technical merits of a 4th gear log that you'll do it naturally. No one is condoning speeding...

Tuning wise, and I suppose this high-lights a particular issue with tuning-by-posts is that a lot of nuances gets lost. And eventho a lot of advise is shared in the best interest, it may not necessarily apply: no doubt a custom tune with a lot of time can likely get you to 17.5psi, but if you prefer to do it yourself, I'd use that as a reference and ease up onto it, rather than hit it or not, knock and dial down. This applies to the AFR and MAF references I said earlier...they are just reference to work up to.

I am assuming you are using the newest v200 maps? And not adjusting an old map right?

EDIT: Throw up your map for us to take a look.

[BlueStreak]

Wow, this is quite the discussion here.

We should also look into where this tune partially started; with the knock sensor off. I'd say from this point is the more legitimate starting point (MAF calibration included).

Before that, it was more or less a warm up to what should come next.

Now that the MAF is calibrated (or will be finalized soon - extremely important) and the knock sensor enabled as it should; tuning can begin.

Things just started IMO. The starting point is a little on the undesirable side but it's something you can now properly work with.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[loki]

I am assuming you are using the newest v200 maps? And not adjusting an old map right?

I am tuning with an old map (V1.08) because I wanted an intercooler option. However I guess this really isn't working. Would you recommend just starting over with a V200 map with just the +SF? Man my downpipe will be here in a few days and then its back to square one. Oh well that's the way it goes.

With regards to 4th gear logs...it's because it's the gear closest to a 1:1 ratio, as well, depending on tire/traction etc, 4th gear logs will likely have less traction issue and thus, anomalies to address.

did not know that. valuable information.

Throw up your map for us to take a look.

no idea how to do that. unless it's just like attaching the log

[loki]

here is the map

edit: shit that didn't work.

my laptop will not connect to the internet, and my MAC won't read the map