loki's logs

[Fobio]

my kneegrow...get rid of that razzclat old map put on the shiny new map...chk boost tune and go for a romp.

Just run the stg1+ map for now and tune up. Start from a clean fresh slate...the IC maps just runs more boost and maybe more timing but you can certainly work your way up to your own IC map. Besides, you are going stg2+ soon so you'll be doing it anyway.

here is the map

edit: shit that didn't work.

my laptop will not connect to the internet, and my MAC won't read the map

either change the file name and ask ppl to change it back (ie. txt)

but forget about the old map...start on a v200 instead.

[loki]

my kneegrow...get rid of that razzclat old map put on the shiny new map...chk boost tune and go for a romp.

Just run the stg1+ map for now and tune up. Start from a clean fresh slate...the IC maps just runs more boost and maybe more timing but you can certainly work your way up to your own IC map. Besides, you are going stg2+ soon so you'll be doing it anyway.



either change the file name and ask ppl to change it back (ie. txt)

but forget about the old map...start on a v200 instead.

man now you're starting to talk like my bredren.

ok starting over as we speak with the v200 map.

[BlueStreak]

About the octane booster. It coats your spark plugs in some reddish powder of sorts. I'm not opposed to boosting octane to check for phantom knock, just opposed to using octane booster.

Once I'm near a computer, I'll add more info.


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[loki]

Ok so I ditched the old v1.08 map and went with the new Stage1+sf 91 octane V200 map.

applied the MAF calibration however it looks like my closed loop values are way off as the LTFT is showing -8. something I will have to re-visit.

I did however apply a bunch of changes to the stock map.

- changed peak boost target from 16 psi to 17.5 psi (you can see all boost targets in
the first log)
- bumped up the fuel cut limits in the boost tables
- changed the AFR targets to 11.5 (beyond 1.0 load and 2500 rpm)
- changed fuel pressure max to 1800 psi (1778.7 psi)
- turned the knock sensor up to max 6750 rpm
- adjust closed loop exit delay A to 15 instead of 30
- reduced both knock retard decay rates to 320 down from 640

anyway I did 4 3rd gear logs tonight.

At a glance:

- still getting the knock in the upper rpm.
- the AFRs are in my opinion still a little off, especially lower down in the rpms.
- not quite hitting the boost targets but this might be a result of the load tables being
to low.

although not quite hitting the boost targets, the boost is coming on very smoothly. the car does feel a hell of alot slower than before since before it was spiking at around 20 - 22 psi in the low rpm. But starting nice and smooth and working up to higher boost is a good thing.

and here are the logs...

3rd Gear - 1 - 11Sep27 - V200 - stage1+sf(91) - modified.xlsx

3rd Gear - 2 - 11Sep27 - V200 - stage1+sf(91) - modified.xlsx

3rd Gear - 3 - 11Sep27 - V200 - stage1+sf(91) - modified.xlsx

3rd Gear - 4 - 11Sep27 - V200 - stage1+sf(91) - modified.xlsx

[BlueStreak]

Alright, about running the octane booster. Here's a photo of what your plugs will look like after running that stuff. No likey.


Chris was "running" a 1.08 map but had it resaved in ATR which auto-updates the map to the most recent spec. Alot of the map was dialed in and I don't expect the v2.0 boost tunes to provide a greater "starting" benefit. At most, there may be a plus to starting fresh as there hasn't been iterative saves on a map; anecdotal evidence suggests that tweaking a map multiple times and flashing it onto the ECU makes that map go wonky after a while.

One thing I'm not crazy about with the new v2.0 maps is the 1.0 load CL exit. 1.0 load can be hit in daily driving with just the mildest form of brisk acceleration. Not to mention, once you interpolate up from 1.0 load to ensure smooth fueling, you're playing with daily driving fuel economy and can expect it to be materially affected.

That is definitely a high knock count. Adding back the KR value to your spark advance, it looks like the ECU was trying to add something in the line of 10-12* at redline; nothing too crazy. Ironically, on one of your runs, KR values start right after 5750RPM (when the knock sensor turns off on OEM and COBB tunes). Your BATs got incredibly hot by run 3.

Did you hear the engine knocking at all, Chris? With 4*KR up top, you would definitely hear something. When an engine audibly knocks, you hear a "ticking" noise; something like a bunch of metal ball bearings being poured onto a glass table.

[loki]

those spark plugs look nasty. no octane booster for my car.

Chris was "running" a 1.08 map but had it resaved in ATR which auto-updates the map to the most recent spec. Alot of the map was dialed in and I don't expect the v2.0 boost tunes to provide a greater "starting" benefit. At most, there may be a plus to starting fresh as there hasn't been iterative saves on a map; anecdotal evidence suggests that tweaking a map multiple times and flashing it onto the ECU makes that map go wonky after a while.

switched over to the V200 map from scratch and applied most of the same logic. took about 30 mins to get the map back to where I had the V1.08 map.

One thing I'm not crazy about with the new v2.0 maps is the 1.0 load CL exit. 1.0 load can be hit in daily driving with just the mildest form of brisk acceleration. Not to mention, once you interpolate up from 1.0 load to ensure smooth fueling, you're playing with daily driving fuel economy and can expect it to be materially affected.

Didn't really like this either, and had originally changed it all to 1.25, however spoke to Fobio, and he suggested leaving them alone for now. So I changed everything back before running the tune. That means that all values (AFR. Fuel, etc.) were adjusted from 1.0 Load & 2500 rpm beyond. Unlike the V1.08 map where we had values changed from 1.25 load and beyond and interpolated vertically to 1.0 load, when I changed the values from 1.0 load, I did not interpolate vertically.

I'm also thinking these load values of 1.0 are very low, however, I do not have enough experience yet to really say for certain where this value should be set.

when the car suddenly goes from an AFR of 14 to a commanded AFR of 11.5 can you say BLACK SMOKE PUFF???

Ironically, on one of your runs, KR values start right after 5750RPM (when the knock sensor turns off on OEM and COBB tunes). Your BATs got incredibly hot by run 3.

Hopefully ironic as in, we knew what were doing when we turned the KR sensor off after 5750 rpms as oppose to man you been blowing your shit up this entire time without knowing. haha

Did you hear the engine knocking at all, Chris? With 4*KR up top, you would definitely hear something. When an engine audibly knocks, you hear a "ticking" noise; something like a bunch of metal ball bearings being poured onto a glass table.

Like I mentioned before, the KR values reached as high as 5 in some of the logs and I was sure I would hear something, but I have not heard the engine doing anything different, and believe me I am very alert with these kind of things.

Remember my very first post about the strange sounds from the SRI? Let's not revisit that thread. I believe a certain member, who's name we shall not mention, was banned as a result of that thread. But that's not to say that it isn't in fact knocking...I mean you're hanging onto your steering wheel for dear life, you're watching out for police, you're watching out for cars in front of you, the windows are up, the exhaust is roaring, so maybe you wouldn't notice (maybe).


I haven't had a chance to really sit down and look at the logs in detail. I'm going to print them out and compare.

One thing that was different when I restarted with the fresh map, was that unlike Abilor's Tuning Guide, where you preset the TRL tables to about 2.30 load for each gear under normal BAT, this time, under Fobio's advice as a starting point, I left them as the OTS values. If you look at those values, they're pretty low (anywhere from 1.4 - 1.9 load if I can recall off the top of my head), however when looking at the logs, I see the calculated load for the most part was sitting just below 2.0 load.

If these tables do have an effect on the tune, and I'm pretty sure they do if not they wouldn't be there, I think that having lower load targets is causing the ECU to cut boost to be more in line with the tables, and as a result, I'm not able to hit my boost targets, unless of course the more experienced tuners think that the logs show that they hit the targets within reason. But that's just my immediate thought.

Didn't get a chance to look at the BAT's. Doing a run, then parking to sit and analyze the data on a side street, then getting on the ramp and doing another run probably is a factor in those high BAT's as there would be considerable heat soak, and although the new cp-e TMIC does clearly dissipate that heat soak quit quickly when you monitor BAT, that should play some role no?

If you look at the boost targets, it's pretty tame. I mean when you've been spiking in the 20's it'll feel very flat. However, the way the car is now, the boost comes on very smoothly. I was monitoring boost on the way up the highway and in 4th and 5th if I pushed a bit without downshifting, it would hit max 13 psi. Before it would spike a bit and hit as much as 15-16 psi and you'd feel the car move but I feel it put alot of unnecessary strain on the car. At first I thought, shit why is it only hitting 13 psi, I'm gonna have to do some "on-the-fly" roadside tuning....but then when I geared down to 3rd and really pushed it, the boost built up to 17 psi.

anyway that's all I got for now.

[BlueStreak]

One thing that was different when I restarted with the fresh map, was that unlike Abilor's Tuning Guide, where you preset the TRL tables to about 2.30 load for each gear under normal BAT, this time, under Fobio's advice as a starting point, I left them as the OTS values. If you look at those values, they're pretty low (anywhere from 1.4 - 1.9 load if I can recall off the top of my head), however when looking at the logs, I see the calculated load for the most part was sitting just below 2.0 load.

Yeah, Fobio is right. Just leave them now. Back when Abilor wrote the guide, there was plenty more n00bness floating around the platform. Things have come quite a ways since those long weeks past. Haha.

Today, you can still play around with the TRL X Gear tables but you will have to add back the effect of those tables by adjusting the values in the load error correction and load dynamics tables. By zeroing out the LEC and LD tables, you essentially neuter the TRL X Gear tables. At the end of the day, the result is still the same.

Didn't get a chance to look at the BAT's. Doing a run, then parking to sit and analyze the data on a side street, then getting on the ramp and doing another run probably is a factor in those high BAT's as there would be considerable heat soak, and although the new cp-e TMIC does clearly dissipate that heat soak quit quickly when you monitor BAT, that should play some role no?

Yep. Parked car = BATs on fire. It helps to cruise on the highway to let cruising BATs get back to normal (this happens pretty quickly with the CPe TMIC) before romping on it once more.

[loki]

Today, you can still play around with the TRL X Gear tables but you will have to add back the effect of those tables by adjusting the values in the load error correction and load dynamics tables. By zeroing out the LEC and LD tables, you essentially neuter the TRL X Gear tables. At the end of the day, the result is still the same.

Agreed, but as Fobio will stand behind, why have tables and then just neuter them. This is where you get into the hybrid tuning that will be discussed at the seminar. because in this tune, I have left the load error tables which is why I believe the car is pulling boost to correct for load.

Yep. Parked car = BATs on fire. It helps to cruise on the highway to let cruising BATs get back to normal (this happens pretty quickly with the CPe TMIC) before romping on it once more.

just looked at the third gear log and yeh the car was on fire. Literally went from parked to on ramp to WOT. In the 4th log though they have settled back down to somewhere more reasonable.

[BlueStreak]

Agreed, but as Fobio will stand behind, why have tables and then just neuter them. This is where you get into the hybrid tuning that will be discussed at the seminar. because in this tune, I have left the load error tables which is why I believe the car is pulling boost to correct for load.

You sir, are pushing yourself into an area full of awesome ;-)

Hybrid is the way to go. Minimum.


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[loki]

cp-e downpipe is here!!!

out with Stage 1 and in with Stage 2!

on a side note, my LTFT's are now sitting at -8 although they were within ABS 2 after I calibrated.

BlueStreak cleaned my MAF sensor for me the other night, do you think that could throw off the calibration?

[loki]

[BlueStreak]

Sure can ;-)


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[loki]

Update:

Of course I open the box to have a look at the new addition to the mod family, and of course it's catless!!

who would have thought that you would specifically have to ask for a catted downpipe, when a catless downpipe is for "off-road" use only and on their website in the description it talks about how the downpipe replaces the 2 stock cats with one high-flow cat.

so now here I am 5 weeks later with a catless cp-e downpipe....what to do....

[Fobio]

loki...first...that's ****ed up about the DP...you should talk to our friend.

I looked at one of your logs...your AFR's looks pretty steady. I mean you can OCD it, but I don't think it's something you need to worry about right now.

Your BAT's being up there, along with it being a 3rd gear log (and all the associated traction and all that), and a boost curve that doesn't taper down for the already hot BAT...those alone ccould be a bunch of minute reasons you have to sort out before the car will make power there. It's tough to say whether it's real knock or not...but having a buddy listen while you pull might help. I'd leave the knock sensor on for tuning sake...we're also diagnosing here, and there's no bliss in not knowing. Again, your AFR or MAF sensor is not the culprit.

Also, it seems like you're likely looking for more oomph, esp down low...from your boost curve, it looks like yout TRL tables are not "tracing" you actual Load as closely as it should...that's likely one reason for the oscillation amount that you see. Otherwise it's a good start other than the knock near the top of the rpm range.

Again, I think your MAF curve is not your culprit, unless a) you're getting wonky LTFT @ WOT, b) you're getting wonky LTFT during part throttle. You are getting neither so Bluestreak's calibration is good in that it should alleviate the need to adjust your MAF for now.

Focus on boost and load.

[loki]

loki...first...that's ****ed up about the DP...you should talk to our friend.

I looked at one of your logs...your AFR's looks pretty steady. I mean you can OCD it, but I don't think it's something you need to worry about right now.

Your BAT's being up there, along with it being a 3rd gear log (and all the associated traction and all that), and a boost curve that doesn't taper down for the already hot BAT...those alone ccould be a bunch of minute reasons you have to sort out before the car will make power there. It's tough to say whether it's real knock or not...but having a buddy listen while you pull might help. I'd leave the knock sensor on for tuning sake...we're also diagnosing here, and there's no bliss in not knowing. Again, your AFR or MAF sensor is not the culprit.

Also, it seems like you're likely looking for more oomph, esp down low...from your boost curve, it looks like yout TRL tables are not "tracing" you actual Load as closely as it should...that's likely one reason for the oscillation amount that you see. Otherwise it's a good start other than the knock near the top of the rpm range.

Again, I think your MAF curve is not your culprit, unless a) you're getting wonky LTFT @ WOT, b) you're getting wonky LTFT during part throttle. You are getting neither so Bluestreak's calibration is good in that it should alleviate the need to adjust your MAF for now.

Focus on boost and load.

If I can't work something out with Nextmod I'll give you a shout and try and see what your friend can do. I'm sure you can imagine how frustrated I am with that. I waited 5 weeks for this part to come in, got so excited when I picked it up, and then opened the box and it's like.....


yeh I figured the WOT calibration is pretty good unless you want to get real nitty gritty but then you're changing so many different sections and who knows where that'll go.

As far as calibration goes I'm talking about closed loop and part throttle. when I monitor LTFT's its showing -8. Also before I posted the log I deleted the non-WOT portion and that shows the LTFTs at -8 as well.

I think I need to calibrate the MAF for closed loop again.

I agree 100% with leaving the knock sensor on until I get to the bottom of the high end knock. One thing BlueStreak did point out was the knock was occuring after 5750 rpms. I printed out all 4 logs for better comparison. The knock really kicks into high gear around 6147 rpms on all the logs.

One thing I notice though is that the 1st log had the highest knock even though it had the lowest BATs. The 3rd log had BATs as high as 145 F with it around 138 - 140 F in the range of the knock, however, the knock wasn't as severe as the 1st log.

Shouldn't the 50 degree higher BATs encourage greater knock if the car was in fact knocking? In fact, the 3rd gear log with the highest BAts had lower knock detected than all the other 3 logs. any thoughts on that?

The car is definitely sluggish but it's a good start like you said. Need to learn more about load and how to incorporate it into the tune.

thanks

[Fobio]

do you have a log from the virgin v200 map? does it knock on that?

let's put it this way...you wouldn't want to put your DP on if it's real knock.

[loki]

there is something I can't figure out.

the MAF break points are 0 - 5.7, 5.7 - 18, 18 - 30, 30 - -77 and 77 - max correct?

so why in the closed loop tables do I see this:

LTFT learning breakpoint Zone A Breakpoint - 5.70 g/s
LTFT learning breakpoint Zone B Breakpoint - 18 g/s
LTFT learning breakpoint Zone C Breakpoint - 200 g/s
LTFT learning breakpoint Zone D Breakpoint - 200 g/s
LTFT learning breakpoint Zone E Breakpoint - 200 g/s
LTFT learning breakpoint Zone F Breakpoint - 200 g/s

will this not affect the closed loop MAF calibration that I did originally?

[loki]

do you have a log from the virgin v200 map? does it knock on that?

let's put it this way...you wouldn't want to put your DP on if it's real knock.

the next person to mention the word downpipe gets a kick in the nuts!

[Fobio]

there is something I can't figure out.

the MAF break points are 0 - 5.7, 5.7 - 18, 18 - 30, 30 - -77 and 77 - max correct?

so why in the closed loop tables do I see this:

LTFT learning breakpoint Zone A Breakpoint - 5.70 g/s
LTFT learning breakpoint Zone B Breakpoint - 18 g/s
LTFT learning breakpoint Zone C Breakpoint - 200 g/s
LTFT learning breakpoint Zone D Breakpoint - 200 g/s
LTFT learning breakpoint Zone E Breakpoint - 200 g/s
LTFT learning breakpoint Zone F Breakpoint - 200 g/s

will this not affect the closed loop MAF calibration that I did originally?

these values have a lot less meaning than they appear to have. I have left them on cars I've tuned, and have messed around with them on my own car. Not really necessary to worry about.

Having said that, I'd use them as reference when adjusting lower range MAF adjustments.

[loki]

No I don't have a log of before I adjusted the V200 map. But I didn't do anything that drastic to it.

I'm trying to upload the map, but it just won't transfer to the MAC, even if I change it to .txt

[Fobio]

No I don't have a log of before I adjusted the V200 map. But I didn't do anything that drastic to it.

I'm trying to upload the map, but it just won't transfer to the MAC, even if I change it to .txt

effing MAC...maybe that's your problem!

seriously, no....hehehe...

anyway...try to do a run with a virgin map. let's pin down this high rpm knock before moving on, rather than tuning around it.

[loki]

I sent you an email with the map. Feel free to post it in this thread if you like.

I'm not using the MAC, I bought a new laptop specifically to run ATR. But recently it decided to not want to connect to my network so no internet on it for the last 2 days.

[Fack_Dude]

downpipe????

[loki]

downpipe????

I hate you...

Anyways, going on vacation over to Europe for 2 weeks, but will check the forum most nights. Printed out the help file for the new ATR and will have lots of time to read it at the airport and on the plane, on a train etc etc. Abilor's guide was useful but now that I think about it, it more tells you what to do but you really don't do any thinking for yourself, which makes it extremely difficult to diagnose problems. Don't get me wrong reading the guide is a great help, although now with newer version there's change.

anyway back to the basics and I'm in for a long technical read.

Fobio, like I said I sent you my map, but really not a whole lot has been changed from the original OTS version.

[BlueStreak]

At the end of the day, the best teacher is just trying stuff out... incrementally... without blowing up your $h!+. Haha.

Your learning curve will increase exponentially.

Enjoy your vacation!