Installing Electric Supercharger!! :)

[loki]

no.

Why not?

All you would need to do is find a way to program it, similar to how you have maf based meth controller

[loki]

All in theory of course

[silverstarmazda]

I think what you mean is the full TPS range, not the rev range. This should work through the rev range so long as you've got the throttle mashed. It may not keep up at the very top, depending on the car, but it's not like it's just gonna kick in at 4k rpm or something. Funny you should mention the button though, as that's probably how my setup is gonna work.

Now... for the TPS range... this really one of the downfalls of this sort of system. With a regular turbo or supercharger, you've got boost available almost all the time so the end result is that your engine will essentially act as though it were a bigger engine. This is why we're seeing more and more tiny 4-cylinder engines that behave as though they were a normal size or even a V6. With the boost active, even at part-throttle more air is getting in so you get more power at all times. With a switched electric blower, even if it works, you'll only see a boost at WOT so your peak power should be higher but otherwise the behaviour of the engine won't be any different.

I had some conversations with the guy about how this could actually decrease fuel economy or rob power due to the restriction when it's not in use. Fuel economy shouldn't be any issue at all but it's true that it could rob a bit of power, but not enough to be noticeable. Basically, to make the same power you'll need a little more throttle to open up the TB a bit more. Fuel economy is really dependent on how much air is getting in though, so needing a little more throttle to get the same airflow to burn the same fuel shouldn't end up in any net difference.

why not have a Y pipe. have one run constant to get rid of the "restriction", then run a second one to add boost. not sure how well that would work...
lol

This is the greatest idea I've heard in quite a while. I mean... it's ridiculous and won't work, but just imagine having your exhaust blowing like a leaf blower. How awesome would that be? Again... I know it's a joke... but to analyse it a little, there's all sorts of problems. At best, you'd be trying to create a vacuum to help evacuate the exhaust but lots of cars have overlap between the valves and depend on a bit of back pressure to work at all, much less work well. In those cases, you'd likely be sucking out part of your intake charge and foul up your cat in no time at all. Of course, you'd be able to put a spark plug in the tip and spew flames, which is of course AWESOME.

lol all about presentation, let everyone in ur neighborhood kno u got an e-turbo LOL

That's the premise behind all the scams out there. If that's all you're shooting for, then it's not worth the bother. That's why I'm setting the threshold for what I'll consider a "success" at around 4 psi.

so you considering it as a success if it makes pressure. but what about when it loses power?

[Wild Weasel]

why not have a Y pipe. have one run constant to get rid of the "restriction", then run a second one to add boost. not sure how well that would work...

Then you'd need a valve to cut off the open intake while making boost and that's not trivial. Ultimately, it's not worth the effort though as this bit of restriction isn't a problem.

Let me add a disclaimer here that this is all under the assumption that the blower makes boost. In the case of all the crap out there that doesn't, the restriction IS an issue because it's in effect all through the throttle position range and is robbing power at the top where you'd otherwise have more airflow available. Once the blower can't push more air than the engine can suck on its own (and thus create boost) then it's just acting as a restriction and robbing power.

But if it CAN keep up... then there's no more issue. The bit of restriction when it's not active only means that you've gotta press the throttle a little further in order to create the same power you did before... until the blower kicks in, in which case you get more power than you'd have had before.

Now this kinda sounds like a bad thing when you read about it... but it shouldn't be. OMG!! LESS POWA IN DA MIDDLE!!!

But let's think about this process for a moment.

I'm going to pull some numbers completely out of my ass here for the sake of discussion, so don't take these numbers into consideration for reality. Maybe there's 1 hp less at a given TPS position, maybe there's 5 hp less. I have no idea. I want to explain though why it doesn't matter.

Let's say that with the throttle position sensor (TPS) reading 30%, the restriction is robbing you of 5 hp.

When you're driving your car, you never sit there and think "I'm going to apply 30% throttle". That's not how driving works. When driving, you press the pedal down until you get the response you're looking for. If you're trying to maintain speed, then you hold it down enough to do that. If you're trying to accelerate, then you press it further until you're accelerating at the rate you want to be. If you want to accelerate as much as the car is capable of, you mash the pedal to the floor. That all makes sense, right? Nobody says "I want 30% throttle." You simply press the pedal further until the car does what you want (or as much as it can).

So if the restriction means you've got 5 hp less at 30% throttle, this just means that you're going to press the throttle to 35% to get the same reaction from the car. There's no power lost here. If you want that power, you have it and you won't even notice there's a difference.

Now, if the blower is a POS like just about everything out there, then this all falls apart as you get to 100% throttle because now you've run out of options. If the damned thing is causing a restriction and you've got 10 hp less at WOT than you would have before, then there's no getting around it. You're screwed. But if the blower is keeping up and forcing air through at, say, 90% throttle and up, then you now have MORE power than you would have before. So at no point are you at a loss for power.

so you considering it as a success if it makes pressure. but what about when it loses power?

This is probably good for some discussion. If it's a success in that it can create boost all the way up to redline (even if it tapers off near the top, so long as there's still 3+ lbs of boost there, then it's giving you more power) then how are we going to lose power? I'm not talking about this stuff I'm testing... I'm just talking about the entire concept of an electric blower. Where would we lose power?

I think the obvious answer is when we drain the battery, so we've got no more boost. So something to test is how long we can use it before it runs out of juice. This is probably not a good idea for circuit racing. But beyond that, how much time does anyone spend at WOT?

Some food for thought... the best way to think of this setup is probably not as an alternative to a proper turbo or supercharger. The better analogy might be to a self-refilling nitrous kit. You've got some extra power available on demand when you really want it, and otherwise it drives like it used to.

Now... some news... the parts showed up so over the next few days I'll get some pics and initial thoughts about it posted. Probably more next week. I'm a busy man. I'll say initially that it doesn't look like garbage, for what that's worth. It actually looks very well made, though of course that won't matter if it doesn't work.

For the moment, I think we've got a good discussion going and I'm curious to see how it goes.

[Wild Weasel]

Hey guys...

Just a quick update. The parts arrived so I've posted up some pics. I also moved the testing story to its own page so as not to clutter up my existing scam-debunking page. See the updates here: http://www.wildweasel.ca/HowTo/Auto/eturboTest.aspx

And let the speculation begin!

[silverstarmazda]

subed

[kilo4321]

Because it looks like half a turbo, I'm starting to see plausibility in this...
However once that battery runs out of juice, I see a ton of restriction happening. 2nd/upgraded alternator?

[Wild Weasel]

We talked above about the effect that the restriction will have. If the battery gets depleted, then it's an issue... so there's a very real concern regarding the battery life in this application. This is definitely not something you'd use while circuit racing as you'd run down the battery and then be at a disadvantage. But for drag racing or autocross, it should hold up. But let's be honest... that's really not the market for something like this. The market is for people who want extra power on the street for either spirited driving or when passing. Otherwise, nobody is ever at WOT and, thus, trying to get as much power as they can out of their car.

As a thought experiment... next time you're out for a spirited drive, pay attention to how much time you actually spend at WOT and to how much time there is between those intervals. I mean... accelerating on an on ramp, you might mash the pedal. But you're up to speed in 10 or 15 seconds, right? Then you might do it again to pass people to get over to the transfer lane to the express lanes. So another 15 or 20 seconds. But then you're just cruising. So if this thing can keep up for over a full minute at a time, this will never be an issue.

Make sense?

[loki]

Very true

But is it a restriction when not in use?

[Wild Weasel]

Again... this is discussed above. It's certainly a restriction... but so is your throttle body. If you need to press your throttle a tad further to get the same response, you'll never notice the difference so long as at the end, you have more power. Now, if it isn't giving you more power... well then that IS a problem as you run out of ability to "press a tad harder".

[loki]

What about having it supplement your intake system, so branch off one side like a y formation or something

[silverstarmazda]

What about having it supplement your intake system, so branch off one side like a y formation or something

post #29

[loki]

post #29

Haha nice

[Wild Weasel]

post #29

heh. Thanks!!

Incidentally... I was putting a little more thought into the idea of it acting as a restriction when not providing boost, and it occurred to me that this isn't unlike a regular supercharger still spinning and, thus, robbing you of completely trivial and unnoticeable amounts of power, when it's not boosting. If we didn't already agree that superchargers were AWESOME and were just broaching the topic for the first time after having nothing but people trying to scam us with fake ones for years, we'd probably be giving that "power robbing" a lot more attention than it deserves as well.

For what it's worth, when I originally had the discussion with Rob about this, it's something that I brought up as well. He's now gone to the effort of designing a circuit whereby sensors pick up the vacuum levels before and after the compressor and, if there's a difference, supply a slight voltage to the compressor to move the air along and eliminate that as a restriction. I told him it was over-engineered and completely ridiculous... but to be fair... it DID eliminate that issue as an argument. I figured we could go on and discuss how much power is being robbed by forcing the alternator to produce a few amps to turn the compressor at a slow speed.

The bottom line is that, if you think about it, it becomes irrelevant so long as the compressor is available toward the end of the pedal travel to provide more power than would have otherwise been available.

And that's what we'll find out, hopefully soon.

[Unoriginalusername]

Save yourself the trouble, and buy that snake oil i have in the classified section

[Hyperion]

Save yourself the trouble, and buy that snake oil i have in the classified section

1) That video from MCM has already been posted in this thread if I'm not mistaken.
2) The set up he has is incredibly different from the one MCM bought off of ebay

[Wild Weasel]

Have you taken a look at my article discussing these things? I've been arguing against them for years now, and that garbage in those videos is exactly the reason why.

I don't even need to watch the first one to know it's garbage and isn't going to work. How is that stupid "fan in a tube" thing expected to create boost? It's pretty much the same in the second one.

What I'm going to test isn't a fan in a tube. It's a compressor driven by an electric motor. If the motor can apply enough speed and torque to the compressor, it should work. That's what we're hoping for. Of course, that's always been a problem in itself. It's been done in the past but needed much bigger motors and whole banks of batteries. Basically, we're looking to find out whether technology has caught up with the theory here.

If this is successful, I'm gonna have a whole lot more work on my hands revamping my pages to try to make it even more clear how to spot the scams. Frankly, it's much easier now while they're ALL scams. If people are building things that actually work though, then I think I owe it to them to help them stand out from the massive sea of fraud out there.

[Unoriginalusername]

Have you taken a look at my article discussing these things? I've been arguing against them for years now, and that garbage in those videos is exactly the reason why.

I don't even need to watch the first one to know it's garbage and isn't going to work. How is that stupid "fan in a tube" thing expected to create boost? It's pretty much the same in the second one.

What I'm going to test isn't a fan in a tube. It's a compressor driven by an electric motor. If the motor can apply enough speed and torque to the compressor, it should work. That's what we're hoping for. Of course, that's always been a problem in itself. It's been done in the past but needed much bigger motors and whole banks of batteries. Basically, we're looking to find out whether technology has caught up with the theory here.

If this is successful, I'm gonna have a whole lot more work on my hands revamping my pages to try to make it even more clear how to spot the scams. Frankly, it's much easier now while they're ALL scams. If people are building things that actually work though, then I think I owe it to them to help them stand out from the massive sea of fraud out there.

what (if any) is your arrangement with the manufacturer/supplier of these kits? is there a financial benefit to you/your interests based on the potential success of this product

[Wild Weasel]

what (if any) is your arrangement with the manufacturer/supplier of these kits? is there a financial benefit to you/your interests based on the potential success of this product

Absolutely not, and I'm glad you asked. I'm not profiting in any way on this. That said, I also don't expect to spend any of my own money on it either, so in the interest of full disclosure, I did ask him to send me money to cover the cost of a tank of gas and a battery in order to do the test. Since the car hasn't run in years, the battery was completely dead (which was a shame as it was nearly new when the car was stored) and the gas tank will need to be full again (and have fuel stabilizer added) for storage when the test is done. I'm not planning on having the car out for regular use for at least another couple years.

Since he included a battery, that wasn't an issue. He included $100 to pay for gas and stabilizer (I asked for $65) but that's the only money that's changed hands. If anyone is thinking that's a financial benefit, I can assure you I've spent a hell of a lot more time in discussion and measuring and what not to be worth a hell of a lot more than that.

I'm doing this because it's the right thing to do and let's be honest... I'm happy to have an excuse to turn some wrenches and play with the car a bit, even just for a short while. If you Google electric superchargers, you'll see that my page is one of the very top results. I've gained quite the reputation over the years shooting these things down, so it's only fair that if someone has something they think works, that I give them a chance.

And this offer is also open to anyone else out there who thinks they've got something to test. I've had one other company show a little interest but it hasn't gone any further.

Frankly, the reason I'm making kind of a big deal about it is the fact that for all the years I've been preaching against them, this is the first one with any promise that's actually been provided for testing.

[loki]

what (if any) is your arrangement with the manufacturer/supplier of these kits? is there a financial benefit to you/your interests based on the potential success of this product

It's called a hobby

A hobby which he clearly enjoys and benefits others

[Wild Weasel]

It's called a hobby

A hobby which he clearly enjoys and benefits others

Exactly. But it was completely a fair question and everyone SHOULD be very skeptical about anything having anything to do with electric boost of any sort.

[silverstarmazda]

one step at a time. lets see if it actually works first

[Wild Weasel]

one step at a time. lets see if it actually works first

That's where all the fun is gonna be. The weather is getting nicer but it looks like it's gonna be back in the single digits this weekend. Hopefully next weekend is nice and I can get the car running and see what I'm working with. My biggest fear is that the gas has gone bad and causes real trouble. I'm gonna pour a full bottle of injector cleaner in it and cross my fingers. I put in plenty of fuel stabilizer, but only found out somewhat recently that it doesn't last forever.

[silverstarmazda]

That's where all the fun is gonna be. The weather is getting nicer but it looks like it's gonna be back in the single digits this weekend. Hopefully next weekend is nice and I can get the car running and see what I'm working with. My biggest fear is that the gas has gone bad and causes real trouble. I'm gonna pour a full bottle of injector cleaner in it and cross my fingers. I put in plenty of fuel stabilizer, but only found out somewhat recently that it doesn't last forever.

injector cleaner doesnt really help the bad gas.. try using seafoam in the gas tank, its suppose to help with bad gas. add some seafoam, then add gas to mix it up.

[Wild Weasel]

I'm kinda wondering whether I should just drain it out rather than trying to run it at all. I just don't want to have to deal with 40+ L of bad gas. I imagine using it to fuel a bonfire in my backyard might be against some regulation or other.

Then I can just siphon some from the MS3 and have enough to drive to a gas station.

Is this the stuff you're suggesting?

http://www.canadiantire.ca/AST/brows....jsp?locale=en