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Thread: What would it take to swap the 2.5l into a gen 1?

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    Default What would it take to swap the 2.5l into a gen 1?

    I am curious has anyone done it?

    As far as I know the transmission mounting and the blocks themselves are identical between the 2.0, 2.3, 2.5 and 2.3turbo motors? Is it not?

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    Default Re: What would it take to swap the 2.5l into a gen 1?

    i would think it could be done. i dont think anyone has done it. not that i have heard.
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    Default Re: What would it take to swap the 2.5l into a gen 1?

    if yarnbah got a speed3 engine and trans running in a sedan then you will have no issue gettin a 2.5 to work....but are you willing to spend the man hours and the money to make it work?

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    Default Re: What would it take to swap the 2.5l into a gen 1?

    The 2.3 liter is a piece of shit engine, I threw a rod through the block last year and the engine was eating oil. The newly swapped engine is eating oil too. These engines SUCK and I have gone all over the internet with people reporting how they eat oil faster than fuel. One guy mentions 1.5liters per 1000 kilometers. All these guys regular driving, regular interval oil changes with synthetic at 5000km, some even earlier. Etc...

    Everyone says the same thing, mazda denies any fault with the engine design, APA has thousands of reports on these engines blowing, consuming oil even with grandma driving, etc...

    It seems no one seems to have these issues with the 2.3liter turbo, the 2.0 NA and the 2.5 NA... only the POS 2.3 NA.

    Also from what I've seen the ancient 2.3l NA costs 2000~ while the 2.0 and 2.5 can be had for <1000 some even have been lucky to find them for under 500 bux. Go figure...

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    Default Re: What would it take to swap the 2.5l into a gen 1?

    Doable. Not sure if time and effort would be worth it. Why not put a speed engine in instead? Then the optio. To turbo is there.
    2010 GS sport: HIDs, SRI, MS3 Axle back, Tinted windows, Yellow fogs, Red tails, RA Mudflaps

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    Default Re: What would it take to swap the 2.5l into a gen 1?

    So pissed at Mazda and their lying out their ass, I know from last year I'm not the only one with the issue, I googled and went through many forums even stateside with the same issues reported, rod bearing failure, rod knock, complete engine failure, burning oil, starvation, etc....:

    http://www.apa.ca/MazdaEngines.asp

    Non turbo 2.3L engine on Mazda 3 and 6: 2004-2007

    The engine may begin to burn oil seemingly all of a sudden at 80,000 to 100,000 km. The consumer would likely be unaware of the condition unless they check the oil regularly. If the oil drops below 2 litres in the crankcase, intermittent oil starvation begins to occur, typically first at the location of the number 1 connecting rod -- by this time internal damage is severe. If the consumer does not stop driving the vehicle, the rod can fail completely and pierces a whole in the side of the block.

    The cause appears to be gradual overheating of the engine, due to 1) an internal defect in the catalytic converter that can plug up over time OR 2) the catalytic convertor plugs up over time from burned oil in the exhaust stream. There may be other causes.

    Failures appear more common with the manual transmission, perhaps because crankcase ventilation or some other factor is more affected by the overrun that accompanies gear changes. Used engines are in chronically short supply and expensive. In Montreal some recyclers have stopped selling the engines because they're too troublesome. APA has sourced rebuilt engines for about $3,500 in Montreal (plus installation). APA has recorded about 35 written complaints from consumers and confirmed a high rate of failures with rebuilders. We have not written Mazda directly about this issue, but could do so given the number of complaints.

    APA can obtain a below retail price to replace the engine in Montreal, and likely a bit of break at our recommended engine specialist in Toronto. Either shop would be competent to report on the engine damage.
    Don't get me wrong the car is great, good chassis, good handling, good interior, beautiful exterior. But the engine sucks.

    Swapping in a turbo engine would be more money than wanted I think plus more gas useage. I would have to investigate it bit more but that would mean engine, turbo, accessories, intercooler, 6spd transmission, ecu, I'm sure other stuff too.
    Last edited by a_ahmed; 07-20-2013 at 04:43 PM.

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    Default Re: What would it take to swap the 2.5l into a gen 1?

    if you get a donor car the swap will be much easier. may cost a bit more since yu have a complete car.
    but its all the small things you dont think of. crank sensors. crank pulley. harnesses. pjb. pcm. ingnition cyl.
    cluster.
    those all add up.
    labour is not rly to big of an issue if you can do yourself.
    worst part of the speed3 swap was wiring and axle shafts. fairly simple otherwise.


    as for the 2.3.... i would say the main problem they have is the balance shaft cassette. they always spin #2-3 which is where the casette is. im not saying its the problem but from what i see, looks like a possibility.

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    Default Re: What would it take to swap the 2.5l into a gen 1?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nickzgrl View Post
    if you get a donor car the swap will be much easier. may cost a bit more since yu have a complete car.
    but its all the small things you dont think of. crank sensors. crank pulley. harnesses. pjb. pcm. ingnition cyl.
    cluster.
    those all add up.
    labour is not rly to big of an issue if you can do yourself.
    worst part of the speed3 swap was wiring and axle shafts. fairly simple otherwise.


    as for the 2.3.... i would say the main problem they have is the balance shaft cassette. they always spin #2-3 which is where the casette is. im not saying its the problem but from what i see, looks like a possibility.
    +1 on donar car. That also means parts galore and you can make money off that too.

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    Default Re: What would it take to swap the 2.5l into a gen 1?

    Pathetic:

    http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/direct/view/.f0cbca4

    ul 05, 2012 (9:38 am)

    I recently purchased a 2005 Mazda 3 with 110,000km on it. It was clean and well taken car of inside and out. It was maintained regularly by the first Owner at the dealership per the Mazda Service Schedule. All service records came with the car. I had it checked out before I bought it and did a thorough self maintenance check on everything at about 110,800km.

    At 112,300km I noticed an engine noise that led me to believe it could be a sticky valve or lifter so I immediately checked the oil. It was down 3 quarts (this in the less than 1500km I had driven since I performed the self check) with not a drop of oil under the engine or any smoke from the exhaust.

    After a visit to the dealership I found out that running it so low on oil threw a bearing in the crankshaft and as a consequence I am now in the process of replacing the engine.

    After speaking with the service manager I discovered that the 2.3 engines are known to suddenly start burning oil without any warning or evidence, as much as 1 litre every 500km. Searching through numerous on-line forums I confirmed that it's a prevalent issue with an abnormally high percentage of these cars, some having experienced the problem as early as 80,000K. The apparent cause is a collapsed oil seal inside the engine and the only solution to address the oil consumption, according to the service dept (outside of an outright engine replacement as it's too costly to fix) is to change to heavier oil. This will slow the rate of consumption but it won't stop it. The 2.0 and 2.5 engines do not seem to have this problem.

    Mazda Corp apparently knows about this (the service department I deal with told me that numerous delerships across the country have brought it forward to them) but fails to recognize there is an issue. What puzzled me most is that when looking into the cost of a replacement engine, the Mazda factory rebuilt engine was only warranted for 1 year or 20,000K when all their other engines are warranted similar to what would be provided on a new car power train.

    I am not laying blame on anyone anyone but myself for my predicament. Had I checked the oil every fill-up, as is recommended, I would have a car that burns oil but would not have had to replace the engine; however, IMHO, any vehicle made in the last 10 years with less than 200K on the odometer, and maintained regularly, should not be burning oil at all, let alone at the rate I and many other owners have experienced.

    Heads up to all owners with Mazda 2.3L engines.
    So since I already invested in this stupid car (and it's great other than the pos engines), it is worthwhile swapping to a 2.5. I just want the NA for reliability and daily driving. I have a track car for hooligan action and speed although the turbo would be fun.

    So how about we all start discussing and gathering information on this swap? Whatever I find I'll post in here and likewise if others can find.

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    Default Re: What would it take to swap the 2.5l into a gen 1?

    I've been thinking about this for a while as well, just wondering if the harness for the engine and the computer can be saved or would you have to transfer everything from the 2.5
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    Default Re: What would it take to swap the 2.5l into a gen 1?

    from experience with helping get the speed3 sedan running yu will need a lot of electrical. first big issue would be dealing with a pcm and if the pcm has to be changed then yu WILL HAVE to change the pbj to a gem.
    those would be your biggest issue.

    im not fimiliar enought to say that yes a 2.5 will run off 2.3 pcm.
    from the speed i no the issue would be with timing, crank sensor and the reluctor wheel on the pulley.
    the crank will control spark. so wrong set up = no spark.

    if you out the 2.5 i would put the 6spd manual instead of the 5spd.
    only thing would be checking cv shafts. one may be longer or shorter from gen1 to gen2

    if anyone else has ideas or can confirm anything ive said.
    im sure i can check pt# and answer a few questions.

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    Default Re: What would it take to swap the 2.5l into a gen 1?

    Heh... yeah. I have some experience with an engine blowing (2006 GT 2.3 5MT, 100K) because it suddenly started consuming oil like no tomorrow.

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    Default Re: What would it take to swap the 2.5l into a gen 1?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nickzgrl View Post
    from experience with helping get the speed3 sedan running yu will need a lot of electrical. first big issue would be dealing with a pcm and if the pcm has to be changed then yu WILL HAVE to change the pbj to a gem.
    those would be your biggest issue.

    im not fimiliar enought to say that yes a 2.5 will run off 2.3 pcm.
    from the speed i no the issue would be with timing, crank sensor and the reluctor wheel on the pulley.
    the crank will control spark. so wrong set up = no spark.

    if you out the 2.5 i would put the 6spd manual instead of the 5spd.
    only thing would be checking cv shafts. one may be longer or shorter from gen1 to gen2

    if anyone else has ideas or can confirm anything ive said.
    im sure i can check pt# and answer a few questions.
    No direct experience with the matter, but I believe most all what you said sounds reasonable. It would seem unless the OP can find the complete system components from a wrecker, it would be a costly and difficult situation to achieve. Especially the fact that the PCM and PBJ would need changing out, which in all probability would have to be.

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    Default Re: What would it take to swap the 2.5l into a gen 1?

    Quote Originally Posted by Flagrum_3 View Post
    No direct experience with the matter, but I believe most all what you said sounds reasonable. It would seem unless the OP can find the complete system components from a wrecker, it would be a costly and difficult situation to achieve. Especially the fact that the PCM and PBJ would need changing out, which in all probability would have to be.

    _3
    Thanks for that confirmation on what she had already typed out. I wasn't quite sure what she was saying, you were really able to nail it home. Thanks!

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    Default Re: What would it take to swap the 2.5l into a gen 1?

    Does the 2010 2.5 mazda 3 only have one computer? I've been looking around and I keep finding various differently ECUs/ECMs/etc... going by different names and looking different, some have a black casing, some have a silver casing, etc...

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    Default Re: What would it take to swap the 2.5l into a gen 1?

    Also newer 2010-2013 ford fusion 2.5 engines go for cheap. Sounds like a no brainer, 2.3 engines that are POS costing 2000-3000 from a junkyard is a rip off.

    I really hope we get the ball moving on this. I want to swap my pos 2.3 (that i swapped in since the engine blew last year) hopefully within this year.

    Just trying to gather info...

    I am guessing ECU, wiring harness may play a role as others have mentioned.. headers, but those could probably be swapped or I could get MSDS headers which i want to anyway.

    If I got a 2010-2013 ford fusion ECU and engine wire harness that should be good enough alongside the complete engine block?
    Last edited by a_ahmed; 07-21-2013 at 05:10 PM.

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    Default Re: What would it take to swap the 2.5l into a gen 1?

    Quote Originally Posted by a_ahmed View Post
    Also newer 2010-2013 ford fusion 2.5 engines go for cheap. Sounds like a no brainer, 2.3 engines that are POS costing 2000-3000 from a junkyard is a rip off.

    I really hope we get the ball moving on this. I want to swap my pos 2.3 (that i swapped in since the engine blew last year) hopefully within this year.

    Just trying to gather info...

    I am guessing ECU, wiring harness may play a role as others have mentioned.. headers, but those could probably be swapped or I could get MSDS headers which i want to anyway.

    If I got a 2010-2013 ford fusion ECU and engine wire harness that should be good enough alongside the complete engine block?

    I dont wanna rain on your parade but think about this.....
    The cluster is its moudule. The gem module (all your lights and interior stuff). Pcm. Sas module (airbag). Ignition cylinder if its a gt push start.
    All those r mazda only. How are you to hook a ford pcm to run those items. I no the cars are very similar but i doubt it will swap that easy.

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    Default Re: What would it take to swap the 2.5l into a gen 1?

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    Default Re: What would it take to swap the 2.5l into a gen 1?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hyperion View Post
    Thanks for that confirmation on what she had already typed out. I wasn't quite sure what she was saying, you were really able to nail it home. Thanks!

    _H
    Sarcasm noted. I was, for the benefit of the OP just backing up the previous comment. Now do you have anything positive to add, or you just like trolling and adding useless comments? and I am quite sure you probably still don't understand the situation.

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    Default Re: What would it take to swap the 2.5l into a gen 1?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nickzgrl View Post
    I dont wanna rain on your parade but think about this.....
    The cluster is its moudule. The gem module (all your lights and interior stuff). Pcm. Sas module (airbag). Ignition cylinder if its a gt push start.
    All those r mazda only. How are you to hook a ford pcm to run those items. I no the cars are very similar but i doubt it will swap that easy.
    An mz3 does not have a push start its a 2006

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    Default Re: What would it take to swap the 2.5l into a gen 1?

    Quote Originally Posted by a_ahmed View Post
    An mz3 does not have a push start its a 2006

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    Default Re: What would it take to swap the 2.5l into a gen 1?

    i didnt say the 06 did.
    if you cant use the 2.3 pcm you need a 2.5 one.
    i you get 2.5 gt it has push start. it wont work without the button.

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    Default Re: What would it take to swap the 2.5l into a gen 1?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nickzgrl View Post
    i didnt say the 06 did.
    if you cant use the 2.3 pcm you need a 2.5 one.
    i you get 2.5 gt it has push start. it wont work without the button.
    but you can get the 2.5L from a 2010+ sport GS that has the key start and not push button, as the 2.5L in the GT sedan or GT hatch has the push button. either way if you get a 2.5 you would need the pcm for the vehicle as i could only imagine what program changes and tune may be different from a 2.3L to the 2.5L

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    Default Re: What would it take to swap the 2.5l into a gen 1?

    not really.
    a 2.5 is just a bit bigger rotating assembly.
    most parts from a 2.3 are the same as a 2.5

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    Default Re: What would it take to swap the 2.5l into a gen 1?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nickzgrl View Post
    not really.
    a 2.5 is just a bit bigger rotating assembly.
    most parts from a 2.3 are the same as a 2.5
    Not really what? You wouldn't be able to. Or I would be surprised to know you could tune the pcm from a 2.3 to the 2.5 as I would suspect they have a different part number and im sure apart from the software it would be set up sightly different. But try it with the 2.3l pcm. Would be interesting to see if it would take the program and if it would even work.

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