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Thread: paulabreu's logs

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    Jr Member paulabreu's Avatar
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    Default paulabreu's logs

    Hi everyone, got my AP v3 yesterday and decided to do my first log. Don't know if its done right or not but hopefully you guys can guide me in the right direction ( yes i've been reading all important post here and on msf )


    And here's the log used for this VD, oh I'm in running the Stage 1 91 v231 map. Only mod on the car is a Forge BPV v1, so basically stock.
    datalog4.csv

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    Default Re: paulabreu's logs

    You want to use smoothing of 3. Skip the SAE correction unless you have accurate values. Your weight also looks rather significant unless you weigh 300lbs. Also by MSF standards you should use CF1.01 but that makes the numbers really depressing. Given your 60-100 time is around 9.5 seconds though it looks accurate. Here's what I get with your log.

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    Jr Member paulabreu's Avatar
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    Default Re: paulabreu's logs

    Quote Originally Posted by SomeGuy View Post
    You want to use smoothing of 3. Skip the SAE correction unless you have accurate values. Your weight also looks rather significant unless you weigh 300lbs. Also by MSF standards you should use CF1.01 but that makes the numbers really depressing. Given your 60-100 time is around 9.5 seconds though it looks accurate. Here's what I get with your log.

    Ouch that's is depressing haha but thanks!!!.

    About the weight, I had my friend with me in the car plus car parts in the trunk so I figured an extra 300 would be right

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    Default Re: paulabreu's logs

    For essentially stock it's not that bad, typically they're 220-230whp in stock form, which given the weight you had on board means you were right around where you should be. The Stage 1 map you're running didn't make any additional boost over stock anyway.

    Fuel pump and intake should be next on your list.

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    Jr Member mickey_g's Avatar
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    Default Re: paulabreu's logs

    trying not going WOT so low in the RPM range...puts undue stress on the rods. Also as a precaution dont post logs with your speed. As for your numbers and vdyno setup SomeGuy explained it well

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    Default Re: paulabreu's logs

    Careful when doing 4th gear logs. You get going pretty fast... pretty fast
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    Default Re: paulabreu's logs

    Quote Originally Posted by Hyperion View Post
    Careful when doing 4th gear logs. You get going pretty fast... pretty fast
    "There is no path to happiness: Happiness is the path " ~Buddha

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    Jr Member paulabreu's Avatar
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    Default Re: paulabreu's logs

    Quote Originally Posted by SomeGuy View Post
    For essentially stock it's not that bad, typically they're 220-230whp in stock form, which given the weight you had on board means you were right around where you should be. The Stage 1 map you're running didn't make any additional boost over stock anyway.

    Fuel pump and intake should be next on your list.
    That makes me feel good, I didn't expect any significant improvement without any mods but I'm glad it's running where it should be. Fuel pump and intake will be on the way soon hopefully

    Quote Originally Posted by mickey_g View Post
    trying not going WOT so low in the RPM range...puts undue stress on the rods. Also as a precaution dont post logs with your speed. As for your numbers and vdyno setup SomeGuy explained it well
    Thanks for the advice, will try and do another log with no weight in the car and without going WOT in the low rpms and see from there

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    Default Re: paulabreu's logs

    Quote Originally Posted by mickey_g View Post
    trying not going WOT so low in the RPM range...puts undue stress on the rods. Also as a precaution dont post logs with your speed. As for your numbers and vdyno setup SomeGuy explained it well
    He's not making even 250ft-lbs at 3000rpm, he's fine as it sits to go WOT down there but in general you're right. Although frankly with a good load based tune, you should be able to effectively limit torque at any RPM to protect the motor without this IMO stupid rule of never going WOT below 3000rpm.

    Also, all logs are done on closed roads in mexico.

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    Default Re: paulabreu's logs

    Definitely need internals next.. I noticed your HPFP dropped below 1600 3 times on your WOT run.. It dropped to 1588, 1595, and 1563 at 2810, 3079 and 3503 RPM's respectively..

    I'm no expert but I'd hold off doing WOT runs until you get internals..


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    Default Re: paulabreu's logs

    Quote Originally Posted by optiklenz13 View Post
    Definitely need internals next.. I noticed your HPFP dropped below 1600 3 times on your WOT run.. It dropped to 1588, 1595, and 1563 at 2810, 3079 and 3503 RPM's respectively..

    I'm no expert but I'd hold off doing WOT runs until you get internals..

    Didn't even look at his logs lol He has a gen2? I'm surprised the AFR's don't reflect the drop below 1600, it should have gone stupidly rich at those points. He's also not making a ton of boost or flow and isn't running too rich (looks like around 11.3-11.4 AFR target) so I'm shocked the HPFP can't keep up when he's not modded really. Might be worth while bumping the target fuel pressure up a smidge to try to counteract it.


    Otherwise, OP be careful. Fuel pump it now!

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    Jr Member paulabreu's Avatar
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    Default Re: paulabreu's logs

    Quote Originally Posted by optiklenz13 View Post
    Definitely need internals next.. I noticed your HPFP dropped below 1600 3 times on your WOT run.. It dropped to 1588, 1595, and 1563 at 2810, 3079 and 3503 RPM's respectively..

    I'm no expert but I'd hold off doing WOT runs until you get internals..
    That definitely my next purchase, I will go back to the stock map in the meantime just to be safe.

    Quote Originally Posted by SomeGuy View Post
    Didn't even look at his logs lol He has a gen2? I'm surprised the AFR's don't reflect the drop below 1600, it should have gone stupidly rich at those points. He's also not making a ton of boost or flow and isn't running too rich (looks like around 11.3-11.4 AFR target) so I'm shocked the HPFP can't keep up when he's not modded really. Might be worth while bumping the target fuel pressure up a smidge to try to counteract it.


    Otherwise, OP be careful. Fuel pump it now!
    Yes it's a gen 2 and I've been using 94 octane if that makes a difference :$. To be honest, now it's the first time I look at the HPFP numbers, going to add that to the AP gauges to monitor more.

    Another question, on stock fuel pump, what AFR target should I be getting at WOT? I know that at idle is right at 14.85

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    Sr Member optiklenz13's Avatar
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    Default Re: paulabreu's logs

    Depends on your map, if you load the map you're running on ATR, it'll tell you your AFR targets at certain RPMs.. You want to look at the Fuel OL/WOT Commanded EQ.

    Also, I noticed you said, you're running stage1 91 map, but you just mentioned you're running 94 octane gas?

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    Jr Member paulabreu's Avatar
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    Default Re: paulabreu's logs

    Quote Originally Posted by optiklenz13 View Post
    Depends on your map, if you load the map you're running on ATR, it'll tell you your AFR targets at certain RPMs.. You want to look at the Fuel OL/WOT Commanded EQ.

    Also, I noticed you said, you're running stage1 91 map, but you just mentioned you're running 94 octane gas?
    Thanks! I'll look at the map on ATR tonight.

    And yes, that's correct, should I load the stage 1 94 map and do a log?

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    Default Re: paulabreu's logs

    There's a 93 map but it's more aggressive (more timing/boost/etc).

    You're probably better off saving some money and running 91 gas until such time as you actually need 94.

    Idle AFR's should be around ~14.7 slight variations are normal though. WOT AFR's are usually between 11.0-12.0 depending on map and some will taper down to ~10.8 towards redline.

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    Default Re: paulabreu's logs

    Quote Originally Posted by SomeGuy View Post
    You want to use smoothing of 3. Skip the SAE correction unless you have accurate values. Your weight also looks rather significant unless you weigh 300lbs. Also by MSF standards you should use CF1.01 but that makes the numbers really depressing. Given your 60-100 time is around 9.5 seconds though it looks accurate. Here's what I get with your log.
    CF1.01 is NOT MSF standard, it is an ESTIMATE of the SAE correction.
    Quote Originally Posted by Peter View Post
    There's room it's just really tight I had the same issue play with it a little and it will work
    Quote Originally Posted by horto View Post
    that's what she said...

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    Default Re: paulabreu's logs

    Quote Originally Posted by paulabreu View Post
    Thanks! I'll look at the map on ATR tonight.

    And yes, that's correct, should I load the stage 1 94 map and do a log?
    May be try loading the safe mode 91 or stage 0 map and monitor FP like a hawk and see if the stock pump holds

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    Default Re: paulabreu's logs

    Quote Originally Posted by fywdyl View Post
    CF1.01 is NOT MSF standard, it is an ESTIMATE of the SAE correction.
    Go tell them that...Post plots using something other than 1.01 and nobody will take the numbers seriously. SAE correction adjusts for air pressure and temperature, a constant 1.01 will in no way account for that ever. Please read:
    http://wahiduddin.net/calc/cf.htm

    Also, don't yell at me noob

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    Jr Member paulabreu's Avatar
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    Default Re: paulabreu's logs

    Quote Originally Posted by SomeGuy View Post
    There's a 93 map but it's more aggressive (more timing/boost/etc).

    You're probably better off saving some money and running 91 gas until such time as you actually need 94.

    Idle AFR's should be around ~14.7 slight variations are normal though. WOT AFR's are usually between 11.0-12.0 depending on map and some will taper down to ~10.8 towards redline.
    A got it now! I have to fill up today either way so I'll put 91 and do another log somewhere in Cuba.

    Quote Originally Posted by mickey_g View Post
    May be try loading the safe mode 91 or stage 0 map and monitor FP like a hawk and see if the stock pump holds
    Is that slight drop on the HPFP really bad?

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    Default Re: paulabreu's logs

    Quote Originally Posted by paulabreu View Post
    A got it now! I have to fill up today either way so I'll put 91 and do another log somewhere in Cuba.



    Is that slight drop on the HPFP really bad?
    Yes, although being in a gen2 it's less likely to cause ZZB. Typically if fuel pressure falls below 1600psi or so, the engine goes into protection mode and dumps more fuel in to keep you from going too lean (which is what the Gen1's did). This isn't good for the engine in any way.

    91 fuel has slightly more energy in it and thus slightly lower fueling requirements (very minimal though) so it might help a bit. As well, the stock CDFP can handle a smidge more pressure so by upping your target fuel pressure you might be able to stave off the problem a bit longer.

    A MAF calibration should be done as it has a big affect on fueling and trims and helps you meet targets accurately.

    Finally get an HPFP and an intake and reap the real benefits of having your AP.

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    Moderator loki's Avatar
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    Default Re: paulabreu's logs

    you're running a 91 oct map with Ultra 94

    why not run the 93 octane map then

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    Default Re: paulabreu's logs

    Quote Originally Posted by SomeGuy View Post
    Go tell them that...Post plots using something other than 1.01 and nobody will take the numbers seriously. SAE correction adjusts for air pressure and temperature, a constant 1.01 will in no way account for that ever. Please read:
    http://wahiduddin.net/calc/cf.htm

    Also, don't yell at me noob
    Again, CF1.01 is an ESTIMATE, an assumption to account for an unknown SAE correction. I didn't say it works for every single case, but when you have a lack of SAE data, you can use CF1.01 to get a rough estimate.

    I don't think you were around on MSF when the first few people started using VD to plot WHP/WTQ. They suggested to use a CF1.01 to account for SAE corrections. And then the noobs on MSF (i.e yourself included) misinterpreted the useful info and made it a MSF standard to bash "noobs" when they post VDs.

    I admit, I don't post much on TM3, but that doesn't make me any more/less knowledgeable. Come visit us in TO once you sort out your "self-tune". We can def learn from each other.

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    Jr Member paulabreu's Avatar
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    Default Re: paulabreu's logs

    Quote Originally Posted by SomeGuy View Post
    Yes, although being in a gen2 it's less likely to cause ZZB. Typically if fuel pressure falls below 1600psi or so, the engine goes into protection mode and dumps more fuel in to keep you from going too lean (which is what the Gen1's did). This isn't good for the engine in any way.

    91 fuel has slightly more energy in it and thus slightly lower fueling requirements (very minimal though) so it might help a bit. As well, the stock CDFP can handle a smidge more pressure so by upping your target fuel pressure you might be able to stave off the problem a bit longer.

    A MAF calibration should be done as it has a big affect on fueling and trims and helps you meet targets accurately.

    Finally get an HPFP and an intake and reap the real benefits of having your AP.
    And this is why I love tm3 :$.
    Anyways, so do you recommend to up my target fuel pressure for now or just run safe mode/stage 0 map until HPFP?

    And I'm going to try to do a MAF calibration, don't have any experience tuning but I could figure it out.

    Quote Originally Posted by loki View Post
    you're running a 91 oct map with Ultra 94

    why not run the 93 octane map then
    I thought of this but didn't really want to do it until upgrading HPFP at least, do you think I should and do a log and see?

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    Jr Member mickey_g's Avatar
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    Default Re: paulabreu's logs

    Quote Originally Posted by paulabreu View Post
    And this is why I love tm3 :$.
    Anyways, so do you recommend to up my target fuel pressure for now or just run safe mode/stage 0 map until HPFP?

    And I'm going to try to do a MAF calibration, don't have any experience tuning but I could figure it out.
    Before you do anything on ATR read Abilor's tuning guide. It helped me loads

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    Default Re: paulabreu's logs

    Quote Originally Posted by paulabreu View Post
    And this is why I love tm3 :$.
    Anyways, so do you recommend to up my target fuel pressure for now or just run safe mode/stage 0 map until HPFP?

    And I'm going to try to do a MAF calibration, don't have any experience tuning but I could figure it out.

    I thought of this but didn't really want to do it until upgrading HPFP at least, do you think I should and do a log and see?
    Stage 0 is definitely the safest option. If you aren't comfortable with using ATR (which I can assume you aren't at this point) then changing fuel pressure targets can be risky if done incorrectly (as with any changes in ATR). MAF cal's just read all the guides for it, there's even videos out there walking you through step by step.

    Also I would not recommend running the 93 maps, they target more boost than the 91 maps and hence will just put more strain on your already suffering fuel pump. You're best off running 91 right now.

    Quote Originally Posted by fywdyl View Post
    Again, CF1.01 is an ESTIMATE, an assumption to account for an unknown SAE correction. I didn't say it works for every single case, but when you have a lack of SAE data, you can use CF1.01 to get a rough estimate.

    I don't think you were around on MSF when the first few people started using VD to plot WHP/WTQ. They suggested to use a CF1.01 to account for SAE corrections. And then the noobs on MSF (i.e yourself included) misinterpreted the useful info and made it a MSF standard to bash "noobs" when they post VDs.

    I admit, I don't post much on TM3, but that doesn't make me any more/less knowledgeable. Come visit us in TO once you sort out your "self-tune". We can def learn from each other.
    Did you not read the link? CF1.01 is a static correction factor and in no way equates to what SAE does for accounting in changes of temp/pressure day to day location to location. What CF1.01 does do is estimate a more realistic power output from the car to line up with less optimistic dynos. The APH dyno (dynapack) for instance IMO reads really high compared to what I've seen out of other dynos (mustang dyno, dynodynamics, etc) based on every comparison I've ever read. Until we can get 3 or 4 different dyno's and some vd plots all in the space place on the same day and do back to back comparisons though it's all speculation.

    That all said, it doesn't matter what you use when you're comparing to your own logs. As long as you keep the settings consistent they'll accurately tell you if you've gained/lost power.

    LoL I was just giving you a hard time with the noob comment btw. I am not big on going to TO, you guys are welcome to come to KW (which happens even less often than me coming to TO for the record).

    Quote Originally Posted by mickey_g View Post
    Before you do anything on ATR read Abilor's tuning guide. It helped me loads
    That guide is a bit out dated at this point, there's some things that have been proven wrong in it although there is still a lot of good valid stuff. This guide is a newer (2014) version but is not quite complete.

    http://www.mazdaspeedforums.org/foru...-early-170894/

    You can also check out their wiki which has a few guides for tuning as well.

    http://www.mazdaspeedforums.org/wiki...itle=Main_Page

    Sadly it's all work in progress so it just takes a lot of reading and understanding. I've been working on my own tunes for a couple years now and don't even know 1/10th of someone like Lex or whatnot knows. That's why pro tunes are worthwhile. What takes me 10 revisions they can do in 1.
    Last edited by SomeGuy; 07-31-2014 at 04:27 PM.

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