Cooling Issues..

[optiklenz13]

First off, I would like to thank Vincent for bearing with me every time, I have lots of questions and I keep bugging him. I really appreciate all your support.. Whether it's late at night and I'm pulling logs or Sunday afternoon track days where you don't expect him to answer, he's always been there to back me up. #mspeed FTW.

On to the task at hand.

From the last track event I've attended, I've had cooling issues with my car.

BAT's going way beyond 125F, I've looked at my logs and saw it hit 135F on the straight away at 6K RPM. That being said, I'm losing power at that point and it takes away the fun out of it because at that point, you're worried that you're going to break the car. You see your car pull timing because it gets too hot. I was also thinking, ambient temps plays a big difference, also the distance that I drove from the city to the track (Shannonville), I get there, get the car to cool down for 15-20 minutes isn't enough. The car is already hot when I get there.

So, I'm thinking.. I should just hard park the car and be done with it just bully cars on the street while I'm at it. But.. where's the fun in that?

Now the quest to address those issues.. First off, I think I'll upgraded to a more efficient radiator and see what it does.

http://www.rallysportdirect.com/Koyo...acing-Radiator

I might do meth and/or FMIC down the road if the cooling issues aren't addressed with the race rad.

and... discuss.. Sorry if this has been discussed before here. I'm just too lazy to search and, I wanted to talk to you guys.

@Fobio @MajesticBlueNTO
@breakfasteatre

[loki]

maybe your K04 is a blow torch under these aggressive track conditions?!

[Hyperion]

maybe your K04 is a blow torch under these aggressive track conditions?!

Don't spread rumours.

[loki]

Don't spread rumours.

What rumours?

[Hyperion]

What rumours?

K04 gets hot under extreme conditions.

[loki]

K04 gets hot under extreme conditions.

I would think it does

Constantly up in the rpms in the track. That air is going to get hot. Try doing back to back to back logs and you'll see the BATs rise

[MajesticBlueNTO]

BATs of 135F is nothing. The AP maps Load targets don't hit the "High BAT Flag On" until 194F.

My recent trip to Mosport GP saw BATs of 179F up the back straight at 6500 rpm.

[optiklenz13]

BATs of 135F is nothing. The AP maps Load targets don't hit the "High BAT Flag On" until 194F.

My recent trip to Mosport GP saw BATs of 179F up the back straight at 6500 rpm.

Any knock/pulled timing at that BAT range?

[SomeGuy]

Yeah 135F isn't bad...I get close to those doing a full datalogs on a hot day. Or heck, even after driving hard and parking in the sun for an hour then driving again.

Swapping out a k04 for a little GTX would also help BAT's since the k04 is a hairdryer above 5-6k.

[MajesticBlueNTO]

First off, I would like to thank Vincent for bearing with me every time, I have lots of questions and I keep bugging him. I really appreciate all your support.. Whether it's late at night and I'm pulling logs or Sunday afternoon track days where you don't expect him to answer, he's always been there to back me up. #mspeed FTW.

On to the task at hand.

From the last track event I've attended, I've had cooling issues with my car.

BAT's going way beyond 125F, I've looked at my logs and saw it hit 135F on the straight away at 6K RPM. That being said, I'm losing power at that point and it takes away the fun out of it because at that point, you're worried that you're going to break the car. You see your car pull timing because it gets too hot. I was also thinking, ambient temps plays a big difference, also the distance that I drove from the city to the track (Shannonville), I get there, get the car to cool down for 15-20 minutes isn't enough. The car is already hot when I get there.

The drive to Shannonville isn't going to affect the car to the point where it gets too hot on the track...unless you were redlining in 5th all the way there. The highway drive is probably the least stressful on the car.

20 minutes, even with the engine off, is enough for the oil temp to drop below operating temp (190-220F)...at which point, a good warm up lap would be needed to bring things back up to operating temp.

Were you losing power/pulling timing because of heat... or because of other factors, i.e. debris in the road causing engine noise (especially fully mounted), torque steer from bumps throwing the wheel off-centre and triggering SWAS (which pulls timing and richens AFRs). Like I mentioned in the previous post, I had BATs >160F and WOT in 4th was not an issue.

When I was on K04, zero f*cks were given...didn't monitor anything as that makes you worry, and worrying about not having confidence in your car is the last thing you want to be doing when driving on the track. Even now, the only thing I monitor are the oil temp and pressure gauges; if I log a session, I don't look at the logs until that night or a few days later... at that point, the car's already gotten me home.

So, I'm thinking.. I should just hard park the car and be done with it just bully cars on the street while I'm at it. But.. where's the fun in that?

Now the quest to address those issues.. First off, I think I'll upgraded to a more efficient radiator and see what it does.

http://www.rallysportdirect.com/Koyo...acing-Radiator

I might do meth and/or FMIC down the road if the cooling issues aren't addressed with the race rad.

and... discuss.. Sorry if this has been discussed before here. I'm just too lazy to search and, I wanted to talk to you guys.

@Fobio @MajesticBlueNTO
@breakfasteatre

I have a Koyo Racing Rad...because the end tanks are aluminium (vs the stock plastic), it radiates more heat into the engine bay. Before venturing down the racing rad path, log your Engine Coolant Temp as well, if you're not going way above 220F, you shouldn't need one. My reasoning for going racing rad was different than just strictly water cooling... the stock MS3 oil cooler is cooled by engine coolant flowing through it. When making higher HP, there is also more heat introduced into the coolant and the oil... to be able to shed that additional heat in both the coolant and the oil (I kept the stock oil cooler), I added the racing rad rather an an auxiliary oil cooler.


Meth...myself, I will not run meth at a track. That is one thing I do not want to worry about as there are too many variables - meth/water running out (regardless of separate tank or tapped windshield washer fluid tank), meth line popping (constantly at WOT means meth pump is constantly at full pressure), pump failing, etc. How long before the meth runs out? 5 minutes? 10 minutes? 20 minutes? So now you're worried that in 10 minutes your meth will run out rather than focusing on your driving.


FMIC is kind of a double-edged sword. While it will cool your BATs more than a TMIC (major diff being that the IC is not above a hot engine), the FMIC also blocks a significant portion of the radiator (BATs go down but ECT goes up). With the racing rad, there is also the issue that the FMIC piping may not fit as the rad is 1/8" thicker than stock (not sure about the Gen2, the Gen1 it definitely won't for the Cobb or CP-e FMICs)... meaning, any piping that goes between the rad and the motor may not fit with the racing rad - this is the main reason why I am still on TMIC, the CP-e FMIC piping would not fit with racing rad.



If you really want to keep the heat down, detune the car slightly for the track... less boost, slightly richer AFR, slightly less aggressive timing. After all, faster straight line speeds does not necessarily mean faster lap times.

[optiklenz13]

^That response makes me sleep better now.. I'll focus on the driving aspect from now on at the track..

Thanks, Neil for the insight..

I think the highest I've reached with my engine coolant temp is 208F so that makes me write - off the racing rad then.. Good point on that meth too.. and I should really be saving my money from now on that it's tuned and fully bolted and just focus on driving skills.

[optiklenz13]

I'm just one paranoid guy who cares about his car.. that's all.

[Mr Wilson]

I'd be more concerned with air flow to the brakes with such small wheels....

[optiklenz13]

I'd be more concerned with air flow to the brakes with such small wheels....

I'm still waiting on those big wheels you have and how will you mount them.

[Fobio]

Ash, your car was tuned for the street on the dyno, and as you've provided me logs from the track, we've dialed down boost a bit, but of course, without logs from the track, I wouldn't have been able to do that.

Which highlights a certain approach to tuning. Track tunes, against common thinking, are actually more tame because they have to work under severe heat conditions. Street tunes do not. Therefore, one should make it clear what their goals are and what kind of tracking you will do.

Whereas Neil's car is not used as a DD much, the development is slightly different than a DD that see some track work. For your situation Ash, without going a racing rad, because you're not pushing 24psi with a built engine...your cooling concerns are slightly different than Neil's, even tho it falls under the same topic of "cooling issues".

Meth can be managed by an observant driver, but it is something you have to monitor. I have ran out of meth on track and I just pull off and refill. But for the sake of a "easier" to manage car at the track, not using meth is a good idea...and the issue is less severe when you're running 50/50, as opposed to 100% and tuned to the edge for it.

For what you do Ash: occasional DD and track work, a FMIC is not a bad idea because beside track work, the FMIC delivers benefits during DD stop-and-go traffic as well, which in fact is where your car operates at really high BAT for extended periods of temp with the TMIC, albeit at very low stress situations.

The nuances of how, where and when you drive the car dictates a lot of how you should mod it. Therefore, I always tell guys to have a plan for their own driving and see what mods will benefit it. There is no cookie cutter solution...so it's best to have a goal, know how and where/when you drive and mod to complement that.

TBH, you can prolly just run 2 maps to address your situations, but hey a FMIC is not a bad idea either overall, not just for the occasional tracking that you do.

[optiklenz13]

Thanks, Vince.

You're right, it does run awesome on the street where there's not a lot of stress or heat conditions. It's when I go to the track that I have issues.

Having said so, I'll keep running the map you last gave me on the street. There's not a lot of track days left this season. Not sure if I'm going to track on the 4th of October, so last Sunday was probably the last one I'm doing this season.

I can't complain on how it runs on the street. I'll take this offline with you and we can discuss.

[MajesticBlueNTO]

I'm just one paranoid guy who cares about his car.. that's all.

I'm paranoid too...but there comes a point where you say f*ck it and just enjoy the moment

[optiklenz13]

Hahaha! So true..

[Fobio]

The thing is...I also never monitored my BAT's and ECT's when I was K04 bolted. I'm sure it registered KR and it might've hit ECT limits where it'd pull timing. The worst situations are the staging lanes at the drag strip...you're waiting and heating up to 180*F BAT and now, you have to do a 1/4 mile. The car is good at pulling timing to protect itself.

But yeah...a reasonable amount of informed ignorance, is somewhat bliss...lol...

[optiklenz13]

The drawbacks of having a V3.. Hahaha.. F*ack it.. I'm turning all the options off when I go on the track.. Just leave boost and AFR.. That's it..

[loki]

I'm just one paranoid guy who cares about his car.. that's all.

Also upgrading those 14inch wheels will allow for better grip at the track

[optiklenz13]

They grip fine with those 14's.. 245/40/14's

LOL!!!

[Mr Wilson]

I thought they were Bridgstone Tracompa's, 125/80/14?

[loki]

I thought they were Bridgstone Tracompa's, 125/80/14?

Either way they are installed so he's 1 up on you

[optiklenz13]

Friggin' trolls.. LOL..

They're mickey thompsons..