Unlicensed mechanics working on cars at dealerships

[sip]

The dealership where I got my power steering recall done says it is the normal practice in dealerships to have unlicensed apprentices to work on cars as long as they are supervised by an licensed mechanic. Can the members in the industry confirm that this is the normal practice?

When I pointed out that the apprentice was working without supervision, I was told that he has lot of experience, very capable, and the dealership takes responsibility for the work done. To the dealer's credit, the dealer's representative stopped the apprentice working on the car (although it was little too late) and assured me that only a licensed mechanic would work on my car in the future.

The dealer's view is that this is the only way for an apprentice get experience. Although it is understandable, I felt uncomfortable when I saw unlicensed tech. removing the power steering pump assembly and repairing it to get it ready for a licensed mechanic to install.

I guess the bottom line is we really do not know who would work on our cars. Is it unrealistic to expect only qualified professionals to work on major repairs (given that customers pay around $100 hour for out of warranty work)?

Another issue that concerns me was that actual work was done in an hour although the service rep. initially told me that it takes two and a half hours to do the work and later told me it would take even more time, as I want only a licensed mechanic to work on the car. Is an hour enough to flush the fluid lines and do the power steering recall repair?

[sol_searchin]

I think your more paranoid than anything, and yes to your last question.

[bubba1983]

As an apprentice myself, albeit in the heavy truck industry and not automotive. **** you. How the hell do you expect us to gain experience and knowledge in the field without hands on. Most, not all but most licensed mechanics now a days (baby boomers) didn't go through the amount of schooling that we currentlyt go through. How does that make you feel now? The ****ing ignorance that I hear towards this trade makes me want to punch all of you in the faces. So in heinsight if all you want is licensed tecs to work on your car. Where the **** will you get these tecs without going thru the apprenticeship program. Its a red seal trade restricted to licensed tecs and apprentice's only. The passing grade which we have to maintain in school is at a high level. The amount on information which we have to know and retain and to keep up with is a huge task in itself. To hear bullshit like this makes me so ****ing angry.
Ill leave it to the other 310a apprentices on here to chew you a new ******* now.

[aris]

Bubba my brother is in the same trade as you ... He been in the trade for 12 years

[Mitchell3]

An hour really? I was told they can do it in half a day, but would like to have the car for almost a full day.. good ol' Geulph City Mazda..

[DumpInfo]

As an apprentice myself, albeit in the heavy truck industry and not automotive. **** you. How the hell do you expect us to gain experience and knowledge in the field without hands on. Most, not all but most licensed mechanics now a days (baby boomers) didn't go through the amount of schooling that we currentlyt go through. How does that make you feel now? The ****ing ignorance that I hear towards this trade makes me want to punch all of you in the faces. So in heinsight if all you want is licensed tecs to work on your car. Where the **** will you get these tecs without going thru the apprenticeship program. Its a red seal trade restricted to licensed tecs and apprentice's only. The passing grade which we have to maintain in school is at a high level. The amount on information which we have to know and retain and to keep up with is a huge task in itself. To hear bullshit like this makes me so ****ing angry.
Ill leave it to the other 310a apprentices on here to chew you a new ******* now.

Am 100% with Adam on this one.

[MajesticBlueNTO]

As an apprentice myself, albeit in the heavy truck industry and not automotive. **** you. How the hell do you expect us to gain experience and knowledge in the field without hands on. Most, not all but most licensed mechanics now a days (baby boomers) didn't go through the amount of schooling that we currentlyt go through. How does that make you feel now? The ****ing ignorance that I hear towards this trade makes me want to punch all of you in the faces. So in heinsight if all you want is licensed tecs to work on your car. Where the **** will you get these tecs without going thru the apprenticeship program. Its a red seal trade restricted to licensed tecs and apprentice's only. The passing grade which we have to maintain in school is at a high level. The amount on information which we have to know and retain and to keep up with is a huge task in itself. To hear bullshit like this makes me so ****ing angry.
Ill leave it to the other 310a apprentices on here to chew you a new ******* now.

I have nothing against bubba, but how is this post any different than what got tokay444 banned?

I'm not sticking up for tokay...instead, trying to understand what's kosher (moderator cussing out a member?) and what's not (member cussing out a moderator?)

[sip]

As an apprentice myself, albeit in the heavy truck industry and not automotive. **** you. How the hell do you expect us to gain experience and knowledge in the field without hands on. Most, not all but most licensed mechanics now a days (baby boomers) didn't go through the amount of schooling that we currentlyt go through. How does that make you feel now? The ****ing ignorance that I hear towards this trade makes me want to punch all of you in the faces. So in heinsight if all you want is licensed tecs to work on your car. Where the **** will you get these tecs without going thru the apprenticeship program. Its a red seal trade restricted to licensed tecs and apprentice's only. The passing grade which we have to maintain in school is at a high level. The amount on information which we have to know and retain and to keep up with is a huge task in itself. To hear bullshit like this makes me so ****ing angry.
Ill leave it to the other 310a apprentices on here to chew you a new ******* now.

I assume from your post that this is the industry practice. Many car manufacturers promote servicing by factory trained licensed mechanics (eg. GM Goodwrench program). Given the industry's propaganda, it is reasonable for customers to expect major repairs to be done by certified mechanics. I have no problem in in apprentices assisting licensed mechanics but shouldn't they be supervised, as the supervision benefits the apprentices too? Do you feel that it is ethical for dealerships to charge over $100 per hour and have unlicensed techs. work on customers cars? In other professions such as in law and accounting, billing is done according to work done by different skill levels (For example law student does charge out at the same rate as a law partner) but I don't know how practicable it is in auto industry.

I am not comparing myself to a car, but I wouldn't let a medical student to operate me so he/she get the necessary experience to be a surgeon. May be it is just me.

BTW, if you have write profanity, just spell it out instead of typing *** or don't write at all.

[bubba1983]

Profanity is blocked by filters so all you see is the astericks. And majestic. If you have an issue bring it up to the mod team. Ill be gladly to take a vacation on your behalf. I will be unsubscribed from this thread.

[MajesticBlueNTO]

Profanity is blocked by filters so all you see is the astericks. And majestic. If you have an issue bring it up to the mod team. Ill be gladly to take a vacation on your behalf. I will be unsubscribed from this thread.

i don't have an issue with your posts nor tokay's posts so there's no issue for me to report...but apparently one of your moderator brethren does; so the mod team can discuss amongst themselves how they can ban a member for being belligerent to a mod then, on the other hand, have a moderator act the same way towards a member.

[zzz3]

As an apprentice myself, albeit in the heavy truck industry and not automotive. **** you. How the hell do you expect us to gain experience and knowledge in the field without hands on. Most, not all but most licensed mechanics now a days (baby boomers) didn't go through the amount of schooling that we currentlyt go through. How does that make you feel now? The ****ing ignorance that I hear towards this trade makes me want to punch all of you in the faces. So in heinsight if all you want is licensed tecs to work on your car. Where the **** will you get these tecs without going thru the apprenticeship program. Its a red seal trade restricted to licensed tecs and apprentice's only. The passing grade which we have to maintain in school is at a high level. The amount on information which we have to know and retain and to keep up with is a huge task in itself. To hear bullshit like this makes me so ****ing angry.
Ill leave it to the other 310a apprentices on here to chew you a new ******* now.

wow, not that i have an issue with that post (seen worse on /b lol), but i didnt expect that from a moderator. instead of solely focusing on trying to correct the op's misconceptions and ignorance about the difficult process apprentice mechanics must go through you told him to F' off and such; focus on why it is important for apprentice mechanics to work and learn on customer vehicles. it is the internet after all, cant take everything personally in my opinion.

I assume from your post that this is the industry practice. Many car manufacturers promote servicing by factory trained licensed mechanics (eg. GM Goodwrench program). Given the industry's propaganda, it is reasonable for customers to expect major repairs to be done by certified mechanics. I have no problem in in apprentices assisting licensed mechanics but shouldn't they be supervised, as the supervision benefits the apprentices too? Do you feel that it is ethical for dealerships to charge over $100 per hour and have unlicensed techs. work on customers cars? In other professions such as in law and accounting, billing is done according to work done by different skill levels (For example law student does charge out at the same rate as a law partner) but I don't know how practicable it is in auto industry.

I am not comparing myself to a car, but I wouldn't let a medical student to operate me so he/she get the necessary experience to be a surgeon. May be it is just me.

BTW, if you have write profanity, just spell it out instead of typing *** or don't write at all.

i think it is also unreasonable to expect that just because someone is "licensed" they happen to be a professional. there are also bad mechanics, doctors etc. who just happen to hold certification, no? my point is your expectations are unreasonable and your actions borderline paranoia when you worry about one and not the other or vice versa. to be specific, im not talking about licensed vs. unlicensed but rather student vs. licensed. do you not trust your dealer enough to believe that they have a qualified apprentice in their shop?

[cwp_sedan]

i don't have an issue with your posts nor tokay's posts so there's no issue for me to report...but apparently one of your moderator brethren does; so the mod team can discuss amongst themselves how they can ban a member for being belligerent to a mod then, on the other hand, have a moderator act the same way towards a member.

Just to clarify since you seem to think that these these posts are somewhat similar (which they aren't), tokay was not banned for his one post the way most think. He continued to push buttons and cause problems. There is a lot more behind the scenes than you might think. He was banned for being a shit disturber to not only the members, but the moderating team as well.

As for Adam's post, I do think it could have been addressed better. We all have our off days with frustration and may say some things that we don't really mean or want to come across the way they do. I would at least give him the chance to rectify the situation. Whether that comes in the form of an apology to the OP or a revised post, who knows. Everyone gets the same chance to redeem themselves in most cases here on TM3. No mod or member should speak to another person in a demeaning or insulting way. There is no need for it.

Why I even have to bring up how little respect there is anymore on here just disturbs me. I guess this is the new age where everyone just treats everyone else like garbage.

There has been a lot of disagreement between mods and members lately and I'm getting tired of it. Most of us do the best we can to help keep the forum running smoothly, yet every day we are faced with more and more disgruntled members. I wish everyone just got along and there weren't any problems. Unfortunately that's not the case.

We (the mod team) are only as firm handed as we need to be. If certain members want to cause problems and make it difficult for us to moderate the board, then I am sorry to say the treatment will be reciprocated right back.

[Flagrum_3]

The dealership where I got my power steering recall done says it is the normal practice in dealerships to have unlicensed apprentices to work on cars as long as they are supervised by an licensed mechanic. Can the members in the industry confirm that this is the normal practice?When I pointed out that the apprentice was working without supervision, I was told that he has lot of experience, very capable, and the dealership takes responsibility for the work done. To the dealer's credit, the dealer's representative stopped the apprentice working on the car (although it was little too late) and assured me that only a licensed mechanic would work on my car in the future.

The dealer's view is that this is the only way for an apprentice get experience. Although it is understandable, I felt uncomfortable when I saw unlicensed tech. removing the power steering pump assembly and repairing it to get it ready for a licensed mechanic to install.

I guess the bottom line is we really do not know who would work on our cars. Is it unrealistic to expect only qualified professionals to work on major repairs (given that customers pay around $100 hour for out of warranty work)?Another issue that concerns me was that actual work was done in an hour although the service rep. initially told me that it takes two and a half hours to do the work and later told me it would take even more time, as I want only a licensed mechanic to work on the car. Is an hour enough to flush the fluid lines and do the power steering recall repair?

To answer your first question it is quite common and has been since forever.Most times the apprentice will be given the opportunity to do the complete job, and then when finished it would be examined by the qualified mechanic.This is common in many apprenticeships not just automotive.

Second question; Yes, there is alot more that goes into the hourly price then just the employees wage...as for using apprentices; dealers can get very busy and they have to prioritize who does what.

The service rep was doing the norm, he was quoting the price from the book.This is also very typical and 'standard' it seems in the industry.

Oh and as things go; replacing a PSP, I don't think is classified a 'Major' job.

Saying all that, it is also your prerogative to ask that only a licensed technician work on your car but it must be understood, it's not always possible.

_3

[Fuman]

i think it is also unreasonable to expect that just because someone is "licensed" they happen to be a professional. there are also bad mechanics, doctors etc. who just happen to hold certification, no? my point is your expectations are unreasonable and your actions borderline paranoia when you worry about one and not the other or vice versa. to be specific, im not talking about licensed vs. unlicensed but rather student vs. licensed. do you not trust your dealer enough to believe that they have a qualified apprentice in their shop?

+1

to OP: why are you going to dealer for out-of-warranty repairs?

[sip]

+1

to OP: why are you going to dealer for out-of-warranty repairs?

I didn't go but lot of people do. It is service department's main source of revenue. I mentioned it because I felt that when people pay lot of money (over $100 / hr) they would expect work to be done by a fully trained and certified tech.

The issue I was concerned was apprentice not being properly supervised. There was a tread about a member loosing all the engine oil after an oil change because oil cap was not put on. The dealer blamed it on the apprentice. BTW, I don't expect a certified tech. to do an oil change.

[Rob23]

how else do you expect mechanics to get there licences in the first place? you need to have certain amount of hours and experience. it is completely normal for apprentices to be working on cars. if they are not being supervised than its because they've proved to the dealer they are confident in that job. if your going in to have an engine replaced they wouldn't put an apprentice on the job, but if you going in to replace break pads they would probably put an apprentice on it.

[gabbygenier]

im gonna throw in my 2 cents here. the way i see it is mazda has a recall for the PSP right. so that means they are under warranty and everyone who has a mazda 3 with the years affected went back for this right. so that means being in the GTA area. im sure the dealer has replaced more then enough for the apprentice to learn how to do it properly.

like some have mentioned the proper way is to have a mechanic look over what hes doing. now whether they do it or not we don't really know. i used to help the engineer work on the helicopter and i didnt know anything about helicopters. but he would give me simple jobs to do and then look over it after i was done. and if i had questions about something i would ask. i guess thats where i would see a problem. if they got an apprentice that thought he knew everything and just did all the work and noone looked it over after. if he screwed something up then he would get blamed in the end right. then it would be up to the dealership to "punish" whoevers fault it was right.

also if i was to go to the dealer for stuff. i trust them enough with my car to let them do work on it. if i didn't, i wouldn't go to that dealership right?

and like some have mentioned. how is someone supposed to learn if noone gives them the chance to get some hands on experience

[Egierda]

I can understand the OP's paranoia, 110%. I do 99% of my work on my car myself, but if I'm going to pay somebody $100 an hour, I had better know who I'm paying $100 an hour to do the work on my car. I would undoubtedly feel more comfortable with a veteran mechanic performing any given task than some dude fresh out of school.

Bubba, I understand and appreciate your statement re: poor licensed mechanics, but by the same token, there are also bound to be poor apprentices. The OP has no idea whether or not this particular apprentice started at the dealership the morning of or the year before. No offense, but your explosion of anger stemming from the OP simply expressing concern is way over-the-top IMO. Settle down; they are just concerned about their car.

[TheMAN]

who cares if they're licensed or not as long as they get the job done GOOD?
if you care, take ontario's requirement of mechanics having a licence a blessing... there are certain states in the US that don't even have a licencing mandate for mechanics (therefore, no licence), which means you'll NEVER get a licenced mechanic even at a mazda dealer!

[Fuman]

I didn't go but lot of people do. It is service department's main source of revenue. I mentioned it because I felt that when people pay lot of money (over $100 / hr) they would expect work to be done by a fully trained and certified tech.

The issue I was concerned was apprentice not being properly supervised. There was a tread about a member loosing all the engine oil after an oil change because oil cap was not put on. The dealer blamed it on the apprentice. BTW, I don't expect a certified tech. to do an oil change.

With the particular example in question, I see it just human error.
I had a fully-license tech do my alignment, but they left one of my lower control arms bolt loose. I detected via, a weird clunk, and brought it back.
People mess up, as long as they learn from it, I am fine with that. However, if they repeatedly make the same mistake, then that is just incompetence.

If I may, next time you can ask for a licensed mechanic to validate the apprentice's work.

[Bleemer]

I think that the OP was concerned enough to share what he experienced and asked some fair questions which deserved fair level-headed answers. Many of the replies were quite helpful and thought-out, but for him do be dumped upon like that by a mod... well all I can say is wow.

Yes I am a newbie here but I am a member of many other car forums where there are also lots of drama and flaming, and a response like this from a mod would be deemed simply inappropriate. Like cwp_ said, we cannot always agree on everything, but we can still be civil to one another. Just my $0.02 anyway.

[Shawn]

Why don't we use the example of a hospital?

When you go there at 4am in the morning do you get a Doctor? Not usually.
You get an intern.. I once got metal in my eye, had to go to the hospital and an intern started up the mini-dremel tool and ground it out. There was no Doctor standing over his shoulder 24/7 saying do this do that.

At your work, is your boss hovering over you the entire day? No.

[Flunk]

This is like anything else, they have the apprentices/interns/whatever do all the grunt work the fully trained guys don't feel like doing. It's impossible for everyone to be a full mechanic with 10 years of experience (well it is, but very pricey).

I appreciate that you're worried about your car, that's natural. But this isn't anything to worry about.

[McGuyver_3]

Beeing an apprentice and working at a dealer I work on pretty much anything that I am comfortable working on (mind you I have been in the trade about 6 years just been screwed around with getting my licence but thats besides the point) and what ever it is they allow me to work on. When approaching a situation where I am unsure of something I am still stopping and asking questions about how to go about things. It's the only way to advance and understand the product I am working on. Be it warranty or customer pay doesn't matter, work is work and the farther you get in to the apprenticeship the harder jobs you get. A power steering pump does not seem as a very sophisticated job. And just an FYI the schooling we go through is a load of SHIT. Why you ask? you don't learn from books. You can use it as a guide but thats where it ends. We work with our hands day in day out then they send us to school and sit us down for 95% of the course and the other 5% is hands on where it should be the other way around.

i'd also like to keep the dealer i work at out of this

[dentinger]

as an apprentice myself, im completely on par with bubbs and dan.

that is all.