Bought Snows today...FINALLY!

[Ghost3]

I went to Brampton Mazda and got a set of 4 Snows today. 16" Steelies and Michelin X-Ice 205 - 55- 16's. Price was $899.00. I checked their web site on the weekend and saw they have an "On Line Special" of $75 off a Snow Tire package if you print and present the add at time of purchase.

Service Manager was not aware of the coupon (he is now) and said that it was a great deal. (They also have the Remote Starter "on line special" for $50. off.)

Less than 1 hr turn around.

You could use the coupon or you could pay full price ($899.00) and get 4 Mazda Wheel discs for free (apparently $150.00 value). I decided to keep some cash.

Then in the summer when the 17" 5 spokes go back on it will definately look like a new car.

Gotta say, really nice ride with the taller side wall on the 16" tire rather than the 17".

I asked a service person what they torque the wheels at and she wasn't sure, but said she would call me when she got a chance to talk to a Technician. Lo and behold....she did call.

FYI - They torque both Aluminum and Steel wheels at 75 lbft.

Very Happy with their Service.

I can almost guarantee there will be no more snow this winter. :-)

[Wild Weasel]

75 ft-lbs seems a bit low. Does it give a preferred torque in the owners manual? I generally torque tuner lugs to 90 ft-lbs and OEM ones to 100 ft-lbs. My Sunfire manual says 100 ft-lbs. I'm just curious as to what the 3 calls for.

Congrats on the tires! Now hopefully we get some more snow so you can feel the improvement. :)

[Skarbro]

75 ft-lbs seems a bit low. Does it give a preferred torque in the owners manual? I generally torque tuner lugs to 90 ft-lbs and OEM ones to 100 ft-lbs. My Sunfire manual says 100 ft-lbs. I'm just curious as to what the 3 calls for.

Congrats on the tires! Now hopefully we get some more snow so you can feel the improvement. :)

You should really throw out everything you know about the J-Body and learn about the 3. There are many differences. You can read up on the online shop manual.

It's not low at all. In fact he's dead on.



Wheel and Tire Installation

1. When installing the wheels and tires, tighten the wheel nuts in a criss-cross pattern to the following tightening torque.
Tightening torque 88.2-117.6 N·m {9.00-11.99 kgf·m, 65.06-86.73 ft·lbf}

[FLIPDADY]

You should really throw out everything you know about the J-Body and learn about the 3. There are many differences. You can read up on the online shop manual.

It's not low at all. In fact he's dead on.
Yeah no more J-Body refrences from now on!

[Wild Weasel]

Well that's why I asked. I'm pretty sure the RSX calls for 80 ft-lbs. I just hadn't heard of one as low as 75. :)

Better safe than sorry, right?

[wtom]

Any more non-Mazda3 specs from WW and it'll be a perm ban! :D

Think Mazdaspeed3 ... Mazdaspeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeed

[majic]

Yeah no more J-Body refrences from now on!

next one = ban :D

[Ghost3]

I had always heard as a general rule that Aluminum Rims are torqued a little higher than steel.

I must admit that the 75lbft of torque took me a bit by surprise. I thought 85 - 95lbft would be on par, but, Live and Learn.

That is why I posted the spec because I figured there would be some other board members that may not be aware of it.

[Wild Weasel]

And knowing is half the battle! :)

[Jetmech]

As a sidenote to the torque number did they tell you to retorque the lugs after say 50 to 100 kms. I do my own tire changes in the driveway and use a torque wrench to get it right and they do loosen after a few kms. Just wondering if the dealer told you to come in to recheck them.

[Skarbro]

As a sidenote to the torque number did they tell you to retorque the lugs after say 50 to 100 kms. I do my own tire changes in the driveway and use a torque wrench to get it right and they do loosen after a few kms. Just wondering if the dealer told you to come in to recheck them.

I have never had any lugs need re-torquing. That simply should never be an issue. You sure your torque wrench is not out of spec?

[Jetmech]

I have never had any lugs need re-torquing. That simply should never be an issue. You sure your torque wrench is not out of spec?


Well the wrench could be out of spec but if I use the same wrench for the inital torque and the retorque and the wrench torque setting hasn't been moved or redialed in the 50 to 100 km span that would point to the lugs backing off abit too me. Have had to do it with the Tribute and the 6 that I have and it doesn't matter if it is steelies or alloys because I run both. I'm not saying that the lugs back off enough to move them by hand but in my experience they do back off. I use the specified torque settings as well.

[Wild Weasel]

This can happen if you torque them while it's resting on the ground. If you torque them in a star pattern with the wheel off the ground, you shouldn't have any issues, though it's always a good idea to recheck them.

What can happen is if they're torqued while the wheel is slightly off center or something, then when you drive the wheel will shift a little and they'll need to be retorqued.

[Skarbro]

This can happen if you torque them while it's resting on the ground. If you torque them in a star pattern with the wheel off the ground, you shouldn't have any issues, though it's always a good idea to recheck them.

What can happen is if they're torqued while the wheel is slightly off center or something, then when you drive the wheel will shift a little and they'll need to be retorqued.

I always torque wheels on the ground and they never need re-torquing. Never ever.

[wtom]

I never torque wheels while they are off the ground. I'll hand-tighten the lug nuts, lower the car fully to the ground, torque tighten, roll the car from my garage out onto the driveway, and double-check the tightening with the torque wrench. I've checked on two occasions prior, after driving a few kilometres, but the lug nuts are still tightened to my personal spec (85 ft-lbs).

[Wild Weasel]

I always torque in the air. I go around once and make them all snug so the wheel is centered. Then I go around again and tighten with the torque wrench.

Looks like none of us have had wheels come off, so I suspect that all is well. :D

[Kevin@nextmod]

As i was taught in school. Torque wheels when the car is not fully on the ground. Torque it when the wheels slightly touch the ground and have enough grip to hold the wheels so they do'nt spin. And especially do'nt torque wheels when the car is off the ground. These all goes only if you're using a torque wrench.
I see shops torquing wheels with there air guns while the car is up. I'm not sure if thats right but i guess it still works.

[Skarbro]

Just a side note....

Whenever you install new wheels, they should always be checked after about 100 kms. New wheels tend to need a little breaking in.

This is why I suspect that every time I buy a new car, the lugs are always over-torqued from the dealer.

[Wild Weasel]

And especially do'nt torque wheels when the car is off the ground. These all goes only if you're using a torque wrench.

Any idea why this is?

[Kevin@nextmod]

Seriously, I have no idea. I just learn from whatever my prof says. Maybe you can't torque it correctly if the wheels spin?

[wtom]

Under normal circumstances, the wheel will turn as you try to tighten up to factory torque specs.

[Skarbro]

I've always only ever heard about tightening lugs while on the ground. Never (with the exception of you, Weas) have I ever heard of anyone torquing them while off the ground.

[Xenon]

When changing my own tires, I usually torque them to somewhere between 90 and 110.

[Skarbro]

There's some info here - all say to torque it on the ground:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lug_wrench

http://www.procarcare.com/icarumba/resourcecenter/encyclopedia/icar_resourcecenter_encyclopedia_wheels.asp

http://www.carspace.com/guides/How-to-Rotate-Your-Car-or-Trucks-Tires

[Kevin@nextmod]

I torque steelies to 100lbs and alloys to 90lbs max.

[majic]

I've always only ever heard about tightening lugs while on the ground. Never (with the exception of you, Weas) have I ever heard of anyone torquing them while off the ground.

how do they torque it at the shop??? surely they lift the car so that the wheels are at a comfortable level (chest) and swap the tires that way... torquing happens in the air allll the time (in that case)

[Skarbro]

how do they torque it at the shop??? surely they lift the car so that the wheels are at a comfortable level (chest) and swap the tires that way... torquing happens in the air allll the time (in that case)

The times I've seen shops torquing wheels, they lower the car off the lift to use the torque wrench.

[Wild Weasel]

I can't think of any reason not to torque them in the air.

On the ground, if you haven't already centered and secured them properly, they could shift when you put the car down on them. Then be pinned in place by the weight of the car so when you torque the nuts, you're only torquing them down in place where they are. In the air, as the cone shaped nuts seat, they can pull the wheel centered if it's not already centered.

I'm assuming that those of you who torque them on the ground only do so after mostly tightening them in the air. Isn't it just easier to then torque them while you're at it? :D

[majic]

The times I've seen shops torquing wheels, they lower the car off the lift to use the torque wrench.

do you mean a MANUAL (clicky/bendy) one???

everywhere i've seen, an air tool was used.. weir..

[Skarbro]

do you mean a MANUAL (clicky/bendy) one???

everywhere i've seen, an air tool was used.. weir..

Ah yes, you're right. Air tools with built in torque wrenches.

I was thinking of the times they used regular torque wrenches - like on the locking nuts.

But we really are talking about the regular bendy/clicky wrenches I would think. I don't think any of us have air tools like the ones in the shops.

[Wild Weasel]

Do they call those torque wrenches? I thought they were called torque sticks...

[Ghost3]

As a side note away from Torque Specs.......I got to experience the snow tires on my drive home this morning. WOW! What a difference. Talk about giving you confidence to drive in the snow. I was changing into the snow covered lanes just to marvel at the Snow Tires greatness.

And now back to your regularly scheduled Torque Spec/Wheel Install debate.

Carry On! :-P

[Wild Weasel]

Now you're one of the converted. :)

Just remember that your stopping distances are still not as good as on dry road so you still need to be very cautious... you just get to do so with much more confidence. :)

And remember... even though you can stop better doesn't mean the guy behind you can. Leaving extra room up front gives you run-off space when you see the guy behind is going to slam into you. :)

[Jetmech]

As a side note away from Torque Specs.......I got to experience the snow tires on my drive home this morning. WOW! What a difference. Talk about giving you confidence to drive in the snow. I was changing into the snow covered lanes just to marvel at the Snow Tires greatness.

And now back to your regularly scheduled Torque Spec/Wheel Install debate.

Carry On! :-P

Sorry didn't mean to hijack your thread. Congrats on coming over to snows and seeing that all seasons are not really meant for all seasons. Now onto the debate.

From what I'm reading you guys don't retorque because you don't see any need too. So is it safe too say that you don't know if your lugs backed off a little below spec because you have never checked? I'm not saying the wheel is going to fall off but enough to get an 1/8 to close to a 1/4 turn more. The reason why I asked the question originally is because I have been told by two independent tire shops to do the same thing and get them retorqued. I scratched my head originally but when I went back and did it the lug nuts moved to the original torque setting.

When I tranfer wheels over in the spring and fall I always recheck them now and sure enough always get a few lugsnuts that will move. And yes I use the star pattern and snug in the air and tighten on the ground.

[MajesticBlueNTO]

if you use anti-seize on the threads and drive the car pretty hard, there is a greater chance that the lugs will back off a bit.

[Jetmech]

True but I don't use anti seize on lugs and I thought you shouldn't anyway.


if you use anti-seize on the threads and drive the car pretty hard, there is a greater chance that the lugs will back off a bit.

[MajesticBlueNTO]

True but I don't use anti seize on lugs and I thought you shouldn't anyway.

there's a light coating of it from the factory (mine was a green colour) ... as long as you don't overdo it, there shouldn't be a problem.

[Skarbro]

From what I'm reading you guys don't retorque because you don't see any need too. So is it safe too say that you don't know if your lugs backed off a little below spec because you have never checked?

No, that's incorrect. I always re-check my lugs after about 100 kms just in case.

[Skarbro]

there's a light coating of it from the factory (mine was a green colour) ... as long as you don't overdo it, there shouldn't be a problem.

You're not supposed to apply anti-seize to lug nuts. Are you sure the green stuff was anti-seize, or was it lock-tight? Besides, I see no need to apply ant-seize to lug nuts because if you torque them correctly, they shouldn't seize.

It's dangerous for 2 reasons:

1. It increases the chance of them falling off.
2. It changes the torque specs - If you use the same torque setting on the torque wrench, then the actual amount that it will get torqued will be greater - increasing the chance of breaking/stripping the lug. Torque specs are determined for dry situations.

There are some references on the net. Here's just one:

http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tiretech/techpage.jsp?techid=39

[Jeff-TheBiz]

Wow, so much I need to learn.

I don't even own a toque.

Are they from this thread???

http://www.torontomazda3.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=14220&highlight=toque

[Skarbro]

Wow, so much I need to learn.

I don't even own a toque.

Are they from this thread???

http://www.torontomazda3.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=14220&highlight=toque

Booooooooo!

[wtom]

Anti-seize the hub were the tires will rest up against it. ;)

[MajesticBlueNTO]

You're not supposed to apply anti-seize to lug nuts. Are you sure the green stuff was anti-seize, or was it lock-tight? Besides, I see no need to apply ant-seize to lug nuts because if you torque them correctly, they shouldn't seize.

torque settings have little to do with metals galling. anti-seize helps prevent galling.

you can torque the lugs really low and, depending on the conditions, they can seize.




It's dangerous for 2 reasons:

1. It increases the chance of them falling off.

so does undertorquing and excessive vibrations. wheels have fallen off from cars that have had their rims mounted at tire shops that didn't use anti-seize.

i'm talking about a little spot of anti-seize, not brushing it on like a fat kid spreads butter on toast.



2. It changes the torque specs - If you use the same torque setting on the torque wrench, then the actual amount that it will get torqued will be greater - increasing the chance of breaking/stripping the lug. Torque specs are determined for dry situations.

that's why there is a range for the torque settings.




There are some references on the net. Here's just one:

http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tiretech/techpage.jsp?techid=39

i'm not gonna tell everyone that it's okay to go ahead and use anti-seize as that is too general a statement. use too much and your lug nuts will back off as the mating point between the threads have too much lubricity between them...use just the right amount and the lugs will hold. what constitutes the right amount? well, a little goes a long way...but people aren't apt to checking the torque on their lugs after X amount of kms (as evidenced by this thread), so most people won't find out until they notice either 1) a lug missing or 2) the wheel falls off.

that's why it is better for tirerack to state to never use anti-seize on the lugs. they're mitigating the risk in a lawsuit-happy society.

[Skarbro]

I have to say that I've never used anti-seize on my lugs for any of my cars. I see absolutely no point in using anti-seize on the lugs. I've never had any problems at all.

It's dangerous to advise people to use anti-seize, because you inevitably get that one imbecile who coats the whole thing and loses a wheel on the highway.

I have to say that we'll just have to agree to disagree on this issue. ;)

[Ghost3]

OK...so, today I had the 3 out for a spin down to Burlington and noticed on the dry pavement (at about 90km+) I hear what I would descibe as a growl from the new Snows.

Is that normal?

I think it is but wanted to check with others that have Michelin X-Ice tires.

My Buddy in Burlington is running Toyo snows on his '06 Mustang GT and says his are quiet as a mouse.

[majic]

snows tend to squirm on dry pavement more than all seasons/summer tires..

[Wild Weasel]

His Mustang might have better sound insulation.

Winter tires generally provide more road noise than others, but if it's excessive then I'd get them checked. I wouldn't worry about a bit of a hum.

[Ghost3]

Thanks guys. I would not say excessive but definately a hum.

[Jetmech]

You should drive my wifes Tribute with the older tech Goodyear ultra grip. Might have too upgrade the audio system to drown out the tire noise. Alot noiser than the Michelin Alpins that she had previously. The only time you heard the michelins was if the pavement was wet and it was a small whiring sound.