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View Full Version : All-seasons can't cut it in snow (Toronto Star Article)



Skarbro
03-17-2007, 10:56 AM
Yes, I know I sound like a broken record. But this is a great article in today's Star.

It looks like the APA is finally going to run a proper education campaign for next winter. They mention Ontario possibly mandating winter tires like they do in Newfoundland - which would be a great idea IMO.

http://www.thestar.com/article/192344






http://www.thestar.com/App_Themes/TheStar/images/logo_torontostar.gif

All-seasons can't cut it in snow

That's the official word as federal, industry and consumer groups prove their declaration that winter tires are better

March 17, 2007

Michael Banovsky
Special to the Star

OTTAWA–It's a simple task, but even on a film set things don't always go according to plan.

The drivers were supposed to accelerate in unison, hit their marks and simulate a side-by-side panic stop. Time and time again, one driver wouldn't be able to accelerate properly. Then under braking, he'd slide, frequently knocking a set extra square in the chest.

The reason? One vehicle was fitted with winter tires, the other with all-season rubber. The extra? An inflatable man. The film? Why winter tires should be fitted to vehicles in Canada.

Set for a release later this year, the project was organized and funded by the Automobile Protection Association.

APA president George Iny said the disparity between takes reinforced the need for winter rubber.

"Even with professional drivers on a closed circuit, sometimes a manoeuvre took several tries to execute," he added. "This is with every advantage afforded to them. On the highway, you don't have the chance to take a corner again if you spin and hit a guardrail."

This demonstration was a first in Canada. Instead of a typical tire test that pits tire manufacturers against each other, this one focused on the disparity between winter and all-season tires in snowy and icy conditions.

But why has it taken so long to film such a demonstration? Nigel Mortimer, one of the demonstration's professional drivers and head of recalls for Transport Canada, says that extensive ABS brake tests within the ministry highlighted the need for winter tires.
"People didn't believe us when we released a tire guide and called for winter tires," Mortimer said. "It gave us the impetus for a demo, to show people the difference between winter and all-season rubber."

Mortimer says that real-world data that generally influences public opinion and lawmakers – collision data – are hard to come by when examining tires. In non-fatal accidents, he says, tire tread depth and type of tires fitted are never documented by police. Why? Drivers are generally cited for driving too fast for the conditions – no matter what tires are fitted.

Another partner of the event was the Rubber Association of Canada. Ralph Warner, director of operations, says its objective is to put good information out to consumers, because there are misconceptions in the marketplace.

"One misconception is that all-season tires are equivalent to winter tires," Warner said. "But a while ago, tire companies were marketing all-season tires for every season – now we've realized there's a distinct performance difference between the two."

Iny believes in better education for the consumer.

"There are two or three factors in examining winter tires. First, tire knowledge isn't as easy to come by as automotive knowledge," he said. "Second, the advent of all-wheel drive and electronic stability and traction controls have improved to the point where many drivers think they can get away with driving on all-season tires.

"Third, the tire industry has caught up and realized that you can't get optimal winter performance with all-season tires."

Warner realizes, however, that economic factors sometimes make investing in winter tires prohibitive.

"Lots of people would love to buy the safest tires. The best we can do is to ensure that people fully understand the case for winter tires, so they can make the best decisions for their situation," Warner said, adding: "ultimately they are an investment in safety."
Mortimer added two sets effectively doubles the life of each set because the tires are only used for part of the year.

From Transport Canada's standpoint, Mortimer says, any decision to mandate winter tires – as is the case in Newfoundland for vehicles to be equipped with at least two winter tires on their drive wheels – falls on the shoulders of the Ontario Government. But they can disseminate information and release advisories on the benefits of winter rubber.

The results of the APA test? Not a surprise: the winter rubber was far superior in every demonstration, from cornering to braking. Outcomes were the same no matter what vehicle types were tested – the event featured rear-wheel drive (Mercedes-Benz C-Class, Chevrolet Silverado, Ford Crown Victoria), front-wheel drive (Toyota Echo hatchback, Mitsubishi Lancer Sportback) and four-wheel drive (two Honda Ridgelines).

The surprises lay in the unpredictability of certain combinations – like winter tires fitted to the front wheels of the Echo, with all-season tires in the rear – which resulted in the Echo spinning like a large silver curling rock through the braking test.

Full videos of the demonstrations will be available from the APA closer to the fall. All vehicles were part of the Transport Canada fleet, with tires donated by Bridgestone Firestone Canada and Michelin Canada.

wheels@thestar.ca

Wild Weasel
03-17-2007, 01:34 PM
That law mandating only two winter tires on the drive wheels sounds dangerous. If you only get two winter tires, they should be on the back regardless of which are the drive wheels. I wonder if that was enacted before they found this out and then never changed?

That note about the Echo spinning is an example of why this is.

In my opinion, I think a law like this for Ontario would be heavy-handed and really only in the interest of the tire makers.

On the other hand, if they made a law that said you MUST have winter tires if there is any snow accumulation on the road, then I would fully back that. Just imagine the revenue they could collect by ticketing people who drive anyway!

On top of that, it should be illegal to be on the road with summer tires between November and April. Anyone getting in an accident, and found to have summer tires in this period, should automatically be cited for reckless or dangerous driving.

Of course... everyone here already knows my opinions on this and are probably secretly assembling a lynch mob... so this'll be my last post in this thread. :chuckle

Tric
03-17-2007, 06:34 PM
I have never use winter tires any more just all seasons in the winter.. since there are so few days with snow on the road and the other thing is there are tons of people that use winter tires and find them selfs on the side of the road.. summer tires are a diffrent story but it all comes down to how you drive in the snow. regardless of the tires..

KenYork
03-19-2007, 02:09 PM
maybe car dealerships should start selling cars with an extra two winter wheels with across the board pricing, so pending size of tire required 14's would be an extra $225 while 15's $250 and so forth.

Wild Weasel
03-19-2007, 02:29 PM
You shouldn't get just two winter tires. You should have 4 similar tires on the car whenever possible.

Kevin@nextmod
03-19-2007, 02:59 PM
This is going to be crazy and harsh for some of the people driving old cars. Some people with less incomes buys a $500 car to use for 2 years or so just to get to point A to point B. But if they do inforce this act, the people will have to spend another $300 on tires which is more then half of the cars cost. I doubt everyone will be able to afford winter tires. Another reason could be that they live in a condo or rent a room in a condo and they have no wehre to store the extra set of tires.

I know winter tires are necessary but its really hard for some people that can't afford it.

Wild Weasel
03-19-2007, 04:11 PM
There are costs involved with driving, and this is one of them. It's really no different than not being able to afford ANY tires and driving around with bald tires. It's unsafe, and puts everyone else on the road in unnecessary danger.

Crap... my earlier post was supposed to be my last in this thread.

Not getting into any arguments though... :bana

Kevin@nextmod
03-19-2007, 07:00 PM
LOL.....WW I thought ^^ post would start some arguments but you held it..Nice work..

Magitronic
03-27-2007, 01:20 PM
i think if they mandate it then they should also mandate that insurance companies have to give guys and girls the same rate for the same driving record :D. Off topic but its so annoying.

rinse
03-27-2007, 04:09 PM
i think if they mandate it then they should also mandate that insurance companies have to give guys and girls the same rate for the same driving record :D. Off topic but its so annoying.

heh good point

wingnut12
04-10-2007, 11:46 PM
Back on Topic, I tried the RS-As in 2cm of snow this weekend. (I changed from winter early last week).

In the snow, they really suck. Doing 10 kph, I turned the wheel 45 degrees, and the car kept going straight.

Sean80
04-11-2007, 12:54 PM
I live in the middle of the country (dirt road) with a really big hill to climb in order to get to my house. I drove through the entire winter on all seasons and I never once had a problem in the snow this year (9000km's of winter driving this year). I had snow tires on my past two cars, and I must say that I really didn't notice any difference. I always drove very carefully and left lots of room between myself and cars in front of me. And if the weather was too bad, I simply didn't leave until it was safe to. We simply do not get the amount of snow that we used to, so I will not be buying winters for my car. Keep in mind that the volume of traffic here in Peterborough is much lighter than in Toronto.

Flagrum_3
04-11-2007, 01:52 PM
There are costs involved with driving, and this is one of them. It's really no different than not being able to afford ANY tires and driving around with bald tires. It's unsafe, and puts everyone else on the road in unnecessary danger.

Crap... my earlier post was supposed to be my last in this thread.

Not getting into any arguments though... :bana

Costs? right...In that case let's make it mandatory that any person involved in a collision and is found to be the cause of the collision (notice I don't use the word accident because there is no such thing)....should be forced to "pay up" and take special driving courses, and maybe even winter driving courses also!!, which they must pass before getting their licenses back.
As I've posted before I believe most collisions are caused by lousy or careless drivers not their tires.There has been enough people on this board who have stated they have driven quite safely thru winters with all-seasons including myself and it should be understood that it is quite safe as long as you use common sense...Mind you, I would be all for the government mandating winter tires because it would make the roads just that much safer, but only if they or the insurance companies would rebate the cost (to a point obviously) and also implement some system that rids the roads of lousy drivers.



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wingnut12
04-11-2007, 07:58 PM
I envy you people in T.O. that for the most part can get away with All-seasons. Ultimately although it ends up costing about the same with or without winters over the life of the car, it is a PITA worrying about storage, and getting to the shop etc.

I envy you because up here, with this car, I don't have that option. There were some days (several actually) where without winter tires, I couldn't get to work. There's just that much of a difference in some places.

EDIT: I live in Orillia, btw

howitts_done
04-11-2007, 10:10 PM
The stock all-season tires blow! They slip on anything that has the slightest bit of moisture and forget trying to drive in the snow. I will be buying winter tires in the fall and at some point performance tires.

MajesticBlueNTO
04-11-2007, 10:18 PM
Costs? right...In that case let's make it mandatory that any person involved in a collision and is found to be the cause of the collision (notice I don't use the word accident because there is no such thing)....


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you took an Ian Law course didn't you? :)

Flagrum_3
04-13-2007, 05:44 AM
Sorry but, ...who's Ian Law?


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Elder_MMHS
04-14-2007, 03:09 AM
You shouldn't get just two winter tires. You should have 4 similar tires on the car whenever possible.

Definitely agree. The last thing you want is to create a huge traction imbalance between the front/rear of the car and promote magnified oversteer or understeer if you do lose traction.

As for the stock tires, I have the 16" rims and Toyos that come with it and they were *manageable* in light winter-ish weather (a few cm of packed snow/slush/ice, temps at or below 0C). Just gotta go easy on the throttle and careful with standing starts.

I've been told the RS-As that come on the 17" rims are hopeless in anything but dry, though. :P

jaym3
04-14-2007, 05:04 AM
all season tires = no season tires