"Afrocentric" Schools

[REZXPERT]

this topic has fired up debate everywhere. just curious about your views, if you have any.....

[Wild Weasel]

I think it's ridiculous. We should be moving closer to having a single inclusive school system, not furthering segregation.

It's interesting that everyone was up in arms about the potential for more faith based schools, yet this got passed by council.

[midnightfxgt]

I dont understand the need for Faith-Based schools myself. I mean, I have no problem with people who practice religion etc, but do we need an entire school system devoted to different religions? Now we are going to segregate based on colour?

I think it is a horrible idea with little to no merit!

-John

[Broli]

i find myself conflicted on this topic.

on one hand, i really belive that further segragation in the school system is stupid and will be harmful in the long run.

however on a more short term basis, if this improves things for blacks then it is postive result from a negative idea. nonetheless in the long run it will be harmful

I would have liked to see other avenues explored that would aim to improve integration.

as for faith-based schools, i think they should all be abolished, it is ridiculous. open whatever private schools u want, but leave the public school system, religon free and independent of colour!

[midnightfxgt]

I am as white as they come really.... So of course I dont know where the two ladies pushing the issue are coming from, but I really wonder this:

They say that they are doing this to Improve the success of Black students. I know that the world is not perfect yet, and there are still some close minded people, but from what I recall in school, "black" children were treated the same by teachers, and by students. What is so horribly wrong with the education system that this is the answer?

-John

[Broli]

i think the issue is that blacks dont identify with current educational institutes and as such have lower grades, much higher drop out rates, lower level of reading comprehension and such.

this means that the school system is missing something in my opinion, however there are ways to fix it, and segregated schools are not the answer.

i am not sure of the details, but will the be black only schools or will then be for anyone who wishes to go to them but they will be designed to educate on a more "afrocentric" model?

[midnightfxgt]

I think open to everyone....

I guess I am lost on how a certain ethnical group can not identify with the education system. All of my Black friends did fine (in fact, most were above the average) :)

-John

[Broli]

it can be simple

less of you there
not many black teachers
reading books that aren't written by black authors
learning canadian history and no black history (i didn't learn a thing about black history in highschool)

it is hard to be in the minority sometimes perhaps, and children as less equipped to handle it than adults

[midnightfxgt]

I suppose. I recall a lot of Black History in my school, obviously lots more in February ;)

I really dont see how having more black authors would make children succeed. From Kindergarten - Grade 12, how many times did you sit back and say "wow, lots of these authors are white?".

I guess I can see that by having a black role model in the school (ie. teacher etc) that a student could relate more, but again, I dont think that this would really make or break students being successful or not. Maybe since I am not of that minority, I dont understand, so just take these for what they are worth :)

-John

[b3GS]

I think there has to be a better solution. Segregation is never a good thing, especially in a Country that claims to be 'multi-cultural'

I understand each ethnicity has it's own needs, but I'm sure there are other ways to provide that to students.

[crazycanuck]

That is correct, the school is open to everyone but has a afrocentric curriculum.

I personally find this whole escapade totally ridiculous. There are 2 main focus points for opening afrocentric schools.

The first one is to deal with drop out rates, because minorities in our current school system feel marginalized and are forced to drop out because of it. They feel that they aren't being treated fairly and given a harder time to graduate. Opening a school that targets these students, makes them feel less marginalized and in theory; drop out rates will decrease.

The second one is promoting an appreciation for black history. Where in an afrocentric school, students can share in the wealth of black history.

My beef with both of these points comes down to this : Where does it stop? Playing into the whole segregation to reduce marginalization is counter-intuitive. I grew up in a highly racist community in England, and I was forced to integrate into their school system. There wasn't a day where I didn't feel I had to work twice as hard to be competitive. Segregating the students just makes it harder for them to be in a society where they have to learn, things don't just get handed to them. The matter of fact is, if they aren't doing well in school; they just aren't trying hard enough. It has nothing to do with race. How many openly racist people do you come in contact with in your day to day life?

Are blacks or any other minority for that matter, going to get their own malls, hospitals, offices just because they feel they are being marginalized in the current ones? Maybe they feel they aren't getting the same prices whites are getting, or waiting longer in the hospitals... We are seriously taking a huge step back in time.

With regards to the second point, if people are appalled at the lack of black history education in our school system. It would be a much better idea to start elective courses in black history. The students have the choice to take it or not. Basing an entire curriculum off it is just pointless... Again, where does it stop?

Maybe since everyone is adhering to stereotypes, Chinese students should get their own school and curriculum with an exceptionally hard math and science courses.

No, this isn't the way to solve anything. I will give this a few years, before people wake up again.


I think open to everyone....

I guess I am lost on how a certain ethnical group can not identify with the education system. All of my Black friends did fine (in fact, most were above the average) :)

-John

[REZXPERT]

IMO, it's systemic and it starts at home. school topics will do jack to change something grass-rooted & cultural. just another example of naive politicking courtesy of people calling the shots on a municipal, provincial or federal level.

[Broli]

john - maybe i didn't take any second semester history classes, lol

i am not saying that changing any of those things will improve the educational quality, it will be maintained, i am saying that it may, and i mean may make some who feel detached, fell a little more attached

there is no miracle fix, peoples feelings and perceptions are difficult to understand and accomodate, particularly teenagers!

i am half arab, half european, and i noticed that we had a lot of white authors and teachers, so that means that others do as well!

it didn't effect me and my education who knows how it would effect others?

CC - i agree, that elective courses with a "afrocentric" focus in all schools would be a much greater starting method to address the issues.

[crazycanuck]

I agree with you 100%.

If the parents are teaching the kids, they are the way they are because of their skin colour. Then it'll reflect in how they interact with others. Since any unfairness towards them will automatically mean a race issue to them.


IMO, it's systemic and it starts at home. school topics will do jack to change something grass-rooted & cultural. just another example of naive politicking courtesy of people calling the shots on a municipal, provincial or federal level.

[WLS ZMZM]

I was curious to see how everyones opinions would be affected by this... some interesting thoughts have been addressed. To start I think those in the past who fought for equal rights would be turning in their graves!! I find it disgusting that this is the answer.

I understand the statistics... that they were using.. but I'm sorry... if you really look at these students who are failing... it starts with whats going on at home. These students don't take any interest in school, as they are not pushed by their parents... parents need to be actively involved in their child's schooling so they can get the most out of their education!! To many this sounds like a viable answer.. to me its us moving backwards towards segregation.

Now I guess I heard that they aren't sure what kind of school it's going to be.. whether it be junior middle or secondary. Now maybe I'm the only one.. but to me a different curriculum doesnt seem fair, especially if it is a secondary school, since the curriculum is different, how can these students be eligible for the same entrance opportunities into the post secondary education.

Bottom line I guess is that I don't understand why this is necessary, I went to a secondary school (SFW) can vouch me for since he went there as well. That was definitely predominantly jewish (being my religion) however, they did offer jewish interest courses, and did offer different varities of history classes, as for teachers there were a few teachers who were african american, in fact one of them was the dept. head.

I just think this is an easy way to point the finger and the blame, sadly when the new school opens and the stats don't change, it will be the TDSB's fault as there wasn't enough funding. The fact is this won't solve a thing.. only create a whole new issue, I think those who are pushing this, should really take a step back and see how they are regressing, not progressing!

The most disturbing comment I heard one gentleman make was "they have schools for gays!! why not for blacks" while I know its not perfect, gays are definitely not accepted the way "blacks" are, especially at school, but at these specially developed schools for them, the curriculum is the same, as the other schools its not like it specializes in fashion and other things that gays may be more focused on... the idea is that its a more gay friendly environment, not a different learning system....

Well that's my 2 cents

[Wild Weasel]

Are blacks or any other minority for that matter, going to get their own malls, hospitals, offices just because they feel they are being marginalized in the current ones? Maybe they feel they aren't getting the same prices whites are getting, or waiting longer in the hospitals... We are seriously taking a huge step back in time.


There are already segregated communities whether we identify them as such or not. I mean... just look at Chinatown. Heck... do you feel you're getting the same prices the Chinese get at Pacific Mall? :)

These schools aren't going to exclude non-blacks but really... why would anyone who isn't black want to go to one when there's an integrated public school as an alternative?

I couldn't help but laugh when reading about this in the Metro yesterday. They mentioned afrocentric math classes among other things. WTF is it about math that needs to be blacker??

I'm picturing Sam Jackson teaching it...

The fact is that lousy parenting is going to produce lousy children no matter what colour their skin is. If kids aren't encouraged to succeed in their educational pursuits and not taught the value of their efforts, then they're going to drop out and turn into criminals. This isn't the school's fault. It's the parents. If they're taking a demographic that, for whever reason, is doing poorly at integrating with society and pulling them out of it, how is this supposed to help THEM?

And frankly... imagine the uproar if a group got together and proposed a white-centric school system!

We've already seen the public backlash against muslim schools.

We should take all the wasted resources we're already putting into running two school systems and combine it all into one with the betterment of society as a whole being the goal!

[crazycanuck]

I totally agree with you in those regards.

And on the flip side, there are definitely communities that are predominantly black, and schools in those areas will tend to have more blacks.

I just don't see why this is even a problem in the first place, and why this topic is even being discussed.

I think majority of us will agree it's a bad family values that ruin students not their race.


There are already segregated communities whether we identify them as such or not. I mean... just look at Chinatown. Heck... do you feel you're getting the same prices the Chinese get at Pacific Mall? :)

These schools aren't going to exclude non-blacks but really... why would anyone who isn't black want to go to one when there's an integrated public school as an alternative?

I couldn't help but laugh when reading about this in the Metro yesterday. They mentioned afrocentric math classes among other things. WTF is it about math that needs to be blacker??

I'm picturing Sam Jackson teaching it...

The fact is that lousy parenting is going to produce lousy children no matter what colour their skin is. If kids aren't encouraged to succeed in their educational pursuits and not taught the value of their efforts, then they're going to drop out and turn into criminals. This isn't the school's fault. It's the parents. If they're taking a demographic that, for whever reason, is doing poorly at integrating with society and pulling them out of it, how is this supposed to help THEM?

And frankly... imagine the uproar if a group got together and proposed a white-centric school system!

We've already seen the public backlash against muslim schools.

We should take all the wasted resources we're already putting into running two school systems and combine it all into one with the betterment of society as a whole being the goal!

[midnightfxgt]

Why not have a Muslim School, Hindu School, Chinese School, European School, etc....

Sigh...

[ptwonline]

Personally, I think it will make little or no difference at all.

The idea is not bad, and given the existing problems it is worth a try. But this should be just one small part of a wider, more comprehensive approach to tackling the issues of the black community: gangs, poverty, broken families.

This school may help give young blacks a sense of pride and identity in a community, but I seriously doubt the values instilled will be able to compete with the existing realities of their world outside of school.

It's sort of like banning handguns. Opponents of a ban say it won't stop gun crime. Well, no kidding. It is not supposed to stop gun crime. It SHOULD be a small part of a wider campaign to stomp out the underlying causes. A handgun ban simply raises the bar to getting these weapons. Put up enough of these little barriers and address some of the underlying issues and maybe you can see some real progress.

[WLS ZMZM]

if you really think about it they do have these schools but as an extra curricular, I went to hebrew school, for a while... it wasn't funded as a public school it was set up as a private school. To me if they want an afrocentric school do it the same way. I hope this fails miserably... especially after hearing one of the ladies who was pushing for this.... she states " the struggle continues".... what struggle?? the struggle to re-segregate yourselves?? I mean what's next.... black buses... ?? All I can say is here we go again!!

[Wild Weasel]

Why not have a Muslim School, Hindu School, Chinese School, European School, etc....

Sigh...

I agree wholeheartedly. What makes the Catholics special? If you're going to give them their own school system, then you should do the same for any other group of people with enough kids to fill one.

[crazycanuck]

Realistically speaking, the demographics afrocentric schools are targeting simply can't afford $10,000 a year tuition for private schools. These are "high-risk" kids from very fragmented families.

It is interesting to note that, this issue sounds very close to the reparation debate down south. The same group of people who feel they are the way they are due to history and inequality. Might I point out that, among my black friends, those who have immigrated here from Africa; don't share these feelings with the native established black community. Just reaffirming my belief, this isn't a race issue at all. But a community issue, where the real attention needs to be directed.

I would be more than willing to see my tax dollars go to community outreach programs for these kids; who are not just black, but any kid that is of "high-risk"


if you really think about it they do have these schools but as an extra curricular, I went to hebrew school, for a while... it wasn't funded as a public school it was set up as a private school. To me if they want an afrocentric school do it the same way. I hope this fails miserably... especially after hearing one of the ladies who was pushing for this.... she states " the struggle continues".... what struggle?? the struggle to re-segregate yourselves?? I mean what's next.... black buses... ?? All I can say is here we go again!!

[WLS ZMZM]

your right... it is the community... and only the community can make it better, they want better places for their kids fight back against the gangs, they want a better life for their kids... push THEM to succeed. Instead its just easier to blame everyone else. So many minorities come here for a better life for not only themselves but for their kids as well, its just sad that everyone is so willing to place the blame.

But lots of people have personal issues, and financial issues but they don't use that to blame everything that goes wrong in their lives.... I mean the situation down south, blames the past for their current situation.. being a jew.. I don't blame my current situation on the fact 6.5 million of us were killed.... it's the past... get over it... move forward.. I'm not saying forget it.. but... don't keep using it as an excuse for holding yourself and other back.

What will be interesting is how they will find the funding for this... now that the government said they will not provide the funding for it!!!

[dj_chinaman2097]

So what happens when the drop-out and failure rate is just as high in this afrocentric school as in regular public schools; you think these parents are going to blame the black teachers for not being black enough?

If the children don't have any work ethic it's because the parents didn't instill it into their minds.


It's fine if parents want to send their kids to an exclusive school, but just like any other special or exclusive school, the parents should be paying for it.

I don't agree with having the afrocentric school where my tax dollars are paying for it. Taxes are used for enough ridiculous things.

I have a friend who went to a Jewish school where he had to pay for his books and supplies every year as a way of helping to fund the school.

Why is it that no other ethnic group, like the Chinese, Korean, Spanish, Portuguese or any other group for that matter whine about being left out and being treated unfairly?

[midnightfxgt]

Why is it that no other ethnic group, like the Chinese, Korean, Spanish, Portuguese or any other group for that matter whine about being left out and being treated unfairly?

Easy.... They are too busy doing school work, and not dropping out :chuckle

[Dan Da Man]

I want an all Italian school. Any other Italians interested? with Italian history. Lets rally together and it should happen. Or at least an all white school. What do you guys think?

[Broli]

now u guys are being silly

first off turning the blame solely on the parents of marginalized kids is wrong. and it is more complicated than that. If the parents are members of a marginalized population there will be social inequalities that exist that can aid in the deterioration of the family structure and of the societal structure at the same time.

so sure, the parents could be doing more, but the whole time they are members of a sinking ship. this is a bit of a generalization but so is this whole discussion.

hearing the discussions above reminds me of the debate about blacks and crime in the states

"it is the parents fault", or "its how they were raised"
when the real issue is the social inequalites that still exsist in the states (they exsist in canada as well, maybe not as bad, but still blatant) to this day, 150 years afterwards.

the issue isn't that black are dropping out of school. the issue is that black drop out of school at rates that far excede those of other groups.

when studied by asking those who drop out they find that it is becuase they feel marginalized.

well then that is a real problem that does exsist and is important to address.

and unfortunately the solution they have put forth is potentially more damaging the the problem itself.

[Dan Da Man]

i honestly think this will start a race wars between schools and black schools. sports teams vs black sports teams. its going to be rediculous.

I think this whole thing is a bad idea. And if the school does not succeed and starts to fall apart they are going to blame the the school board for not doing enough to make it succeed and find some other lame excuse why their black students didn't pass school and still dropped out even in a black school

i heard from someone that they will only be accepting A and B grade students... i was under the impression they were creating this school for the black kids who were failing and were dropouts. Anyone else hear this?

I'm still shocked this is actually happening.

[WLS ZMZM]

now u guys are being silly

first off turning the blame solely on the parents of marginalized kids is wrong. and it is more complicated than that. If the parents are members of a marginalized population there will be social inequalities that exist that can aid in the deterioration of the family structure and of the societal structure at the same time.

so sure, the parents could be doing more, but the whole time they are members of a sinking ship. this is a bit of a generalization but so is this whole discussion.

hearing the discussions above reminds me of the debate about blacks and crime in the states

"it is the parents fault", or "its how they were raised"
when the real issue is the social inequalites that still exsist in the states (they exsist in canada as well, maybe not as bad, but still blatant) to this day, 150 years afterwards.

the issue isn't that black are dropping out of school. the issue is that black drop out of school at rates that far excede those of other groups.

when studied by asking those who drop out they find that it is becuase they feel marginalized.

well then that is a real problem that does exsist and is important to address.

and unfortunately the solution they have put forth is potentially more damaging the the problem itself.

I can't believe I'm about to say this.. but I completely disagree with you buddy.... being "marginalized" is a poor excuse for being lazy! The fact of the matter is that society has allowed alot of minorities to become lazy... and gives them the "race card" now I'm not saying they are all lazy.. cuz hey me myself am a minority.... but I have gotten out of life what I put into it... having a curriculum that interests me more or is more tailored to my social needs is unacceptable... I have to say.. why not an all Italian school (I thought that was woodbridge :chuckle I kid I kid)

But seriously I'm sorry you can put the blame on the parents... they may not have to be actively involved with their children's school work but they should be pushing them as much as possible. Instead of continuously whining about what happened in the past, try to put your best foot forward, if some individuals put as much effort into their lives as they do their whining... they'd really get ahead!!

Now Broli.. being of middle eastern and european background.. don't tell me your rents didn't ride your ass like a bull to get your work done!! I know with my european upbringing... I wasn't allowed so much as to fart before all my hw was done... and I'm sure alot of the asian mbrs can vouch for that as well.

[dj_chinaman2097]

I wasn't allowed so much as to fart before all my hw was done... and I'm sure alot of the asian mbrs can vouch for that as well.

LOL. I remember back when I wanted to get a Super Nintendo my parents told me to get five perfect test scores before they would even consider it.

And I can vouch for a lack of effort from some of the black parents. My mom babysat a 10-year-old AfroItalian for a year or so and made him do math drills in addition to his regular hw when he was over. His mom just let him watch tv and play outside when he was at home, but at our house he got into the habit of doing all his homework and became really good at math for his level. His mom totally noticed the change in her son and was greatful how my mom set her kid straight. Last time we saw him he told us he was getting mostly Bs, but he was going to keep working at it until he got straight As.

[Thunder 3]

The fact of the matter is that society has allowed alot of minorities to become lazy... and gives them the "race card" now I'm not saying they are all lazy.. cuz hey me myself am a minority.... but I have gotten out of life what I put into it... having a curriculum that interests me more or is more tailored to my social needs is unacceptable... I have to say.. why not an all Italian school (I thought that was woodbridge :chuckle I kid I kid)

Agreed. I grew up in Thunder Bay and they set up a separate highschool for Native students rather than blend them in with the rest of the school system. Bad idea...this just created more issues and segregation, continuing problematic cycles that need to be ended.

I feel if you want to set up a privately funded school for any specific group of people then go ahead. Otherwise, I don't think taxpayers should be responsible for paying for it.

[Broli]

I can't believe I'm about to say this.. but I completely disagree with you buddy.... being "marginalized" is a poor excuse for being lazy! The fact of the matter is that society has allowed alot of minorities to become lazy... and gives them the "race card" now I'm not saying they are all lazy.. cuz hey me myself am a minority.... but I have gotten out of life what I put into it... having a curriculum that interests me more or is more tailored to my social needs is unacceptable... I have to say.. why not an all Italian school (I thought that was woodbridge :chuckle I kid I kid)

But seriously I'm sorry you can put the blame on the parents... they may not have to be actively involved with their children's school work but they should be pushing them as much as possible. Instead of continuously whining about what happened in the past, try to put your best foot forward, if some individuals put as much effort into their lives as they do their whining... they'd really get ahead!!

Now Broli.. being of middle eastern and european background.. don't tell me your rents didn't ride your ass like a bull to get your work done!! I know with my european upbringing... I wasn't allowed so much as to fart before all my hw was done... and I'm sure alot of the asian mbrs can vouch for that as well.


damnit, i should be writing my papers, but i am compelled to respond.

you should think of marginilization as social quicksand, during the first few generations it is easier to overcome however as the generations pass it is harder and harder to climb out. That being said, there will always be those who make it out, but that doesn't mean it wasn't very difficult and far more difficult that for someone who is marginalized.

Let me put this out before i comment about you, I am half muslim half jewish by birth, however it is my choice to be neither religion and in fact no religion.

as for you specifically, the jewish minority is not marginalized in north america, quite the opposite. in fact still to this day in north america there is no group more marginalized by race/religion than blacks.

blame is multifactorial, certainly the parents are in the mix somewhere, however there are many issues all important, some account for more of the problem than others, perhaps our difference is with where we attribute the root of the problem to be.

i tend to agree with you about curriculum, i think in the long run no matter what it is harmful to have specifically tailored classes.

as for my parent cracking the whip . . nah, i dont want this to come out the wrong way, but i found highshool to be quite easy, so . . no whip cracking required! lol

[mf5781]

[QUOTE=Thunder 3;255573]Agreed. I grew up in Thunder Bay and they set up a separate highschool for Native students rather than blend them in with the rest of the school system. Bad idea...this just created more issues and segregation, continuing problematic cycles that need to be ended.

Agreed. In Hong Kong, they banded the secondary schools into 5 bands. Those students of the lowest academic ability are put in band 5 schools. The result is those students feel they are loser and inferior to those in band 1 to 4. The result is high drop out and low academic result. I just wonder who want to go to this type of school and be banded as loser and inferior.

[midnightfxgt]

Honestly, I think that a student who is blaming the fact that they are black (and how that affects their school life) for their dropping out, is looking for an excuse.

I know its hard to imagine, since I am not black, but why do all other backgrounds do fine? I wish we had a black forum member post their feelings about this :)

-John

[crazycanuck]

Broli, you do have valid points. The blacks are being marginalized in ways some of us will never experience. But you have to understand, the stereotypes are there for a reason. Again, it is a matter of the community they grew up in.

I can even list off the top of my head, times when some people (not just blacks) have pulled the race card. It's an easy way out, and an easy solution to a hard issue people just can't seem to solve.

I wouldn't be surprised if an entire school full of high risk students rake up the lowest test scores in the entire country. This is with reference to the person from North Bay, he has seen it first hand with Native students.


damnit, i should be writing my papers, but i am compelled to respond.

you should think of marginilization as social quicksand, during the first few generations it is easier to overcome however as the generations pass it is harder and harder to climb out. That being said, there will always be those who make it out, but that doesn't mean it wasn't very difficult and far more difficult that for someone who is marginalized.

Let me put this out before i comment about you, I am half muslim half jewish by birth, however it is my choice to be neither religion and in fact no religion.

as for you specifically, the jewish minority is not marginalized in north america, quite the opposite. in fact still to this day in north america there is no group more marginalized by race/religion than blacks.

blame is multifactorial, certainly the parents are in the mix somewhere, however there are many issues all important, some account for more of the problem than others, perhaps our difference is with where we attribute the root of the problem to be.

i tend to agree with you about curriculum, i think in the long run no matter what it is harmful to have specifically tailored classes.

as for my parent cracking the whip . . nah, i dont want this to come out the wrong way, but i found highshool to be quite easy, so . . no whip cracking required! lol

[PlatMS6]

40% drop out rate because the school system failed the students....BS

I can think of 5+ ethnicities that would have it harder than black students and they thrive, some even with limited english (ie. Fresh first gen Canadian's)

All these people on the news are just making knee-jerk excuses, about this and that, what will they blame next if these Afrocentric schools don't bring up the grades and lower droppout rates.

On a side note Canada's school system is already in shambles and is greaaattlly outshined by European/Asian systems. They should not be wasting money on these catered schools and put more towards the public institutions. We should stop being so damn PC and raise the bar, and forget about the "no child left behind" mentality. If someone doesn't care, toss em aside or stick them into special ed.

[queens49]

I can't believe I'm about to say this.. but I completely disagree with you buddy.... being "marginalized" is a poor excuse for being lazy! The fact of the matter is that society has allowed alot of minorities to become lazy... and gives them the "race card" now I'm not saying they are all lazy.. cuz hey me myself am a minority.... but I have gotten out of life what I put into it... having a curriculum that interests me more or is more tailored to my social needs is unacceptable... I have to say.. why not an all Italian school (I thought that was woodbridge :chuckle I kid I kid)

But seriously I'm sorry you can put the blame on the parents... they may not have to be actively involved with their children's school work but they should be pushing them as much as possible. Instead of continuously whining about what happened in the past, try to put your best foot forward, if some individuals put as much effort into their lives as they do their whining... they'd really get ahead!!

Now Broli.. being of middle eastern and european background.. don't tell me your rents didn't ride your ass like a bull to get your work done!! I know with my european upbringing... I wasn't allowed so much as to fart before all my hw was done... and I'm sure alot of the asian mbrs can vouch for that as well.


I have to agree. I grew up in London, and my two sisters and myself were the only asians at the elementary school. Then in high school, there were only about 5 asians in the entire school. I think I was a clear minority in my schooling, and I turned out just fine. They talk about reading curriculum on black authors etc., and I think that's BS. In English class, we read books by Shakespeare, Hemingway etc. and not once, did the thought of whether the author was black, white, or asian ever pop into my head. As for math or science, these subjects are universal and ethnicity has nothing to do with it. An atom is an atom, a 1 is a 1 anywhere in the world. It's good that the TDSB is willing to try something to help, but this is not the way to do it.

[mazidane]

Might I point out that, among my black friends, those who have immigrated here from Africa; don't share these feelings with the native established black community. Just reaffirming my belief, this isn't a race issue at all. But a community issue, where the real attention needs to be directed.



Very good point! Definitely not a race issue!

A "black" from Africa and a "black" from North America have only one thing in common, skin colour, there are tons of cultural and social differences, even amongst Africans themselves!

If they are going to call it anything it should really be "Afro-American Centric" culturally they are more North American and less African, in fact I have known African Americans/Canadians who look down on Africans just because they are from Africa.:loco

MLK Jr must be rolling in his grave!

[b]

I think it's ridiculous. We should be moving closer to having a single inclusive school system, not furthering segregation.


Very well put!


I couldn't help but laugh when reading about this in the Metro yesterday. They mentioned afrocentric math classes among other things. WTF is it about math that needs to be blacker??

The fact is that lousy parenting is going to produce lousy children no matter what colour their skin is. If kids aren't encouraged to succeed in their educational pursuits and not taught the value of their efforts, then they're going to drop out and turn into criminals. This isn't the school's fault. It's the parents. If they're taking a demographic that, for whever reason, is doing poorly at integrating with society and pulling them out of it, how is this supposed to help THEM?

And frankly... imagine the uproar if a group got together and proposed a white-centric school system!

We should take all the wasted resources we're already putting into running two school systems and combine it all into one with the betterment of society as a whole being the goal!

Again... very well put! WW you are very good at getting your point across and I couldn't agree more.

[Cardinal Fang]

I wish I could add more but in all honesty I think you guys have made all my points. But I would like to note the following:

1. We've just come off a Provincial Election where there was a backlash to fund faith based schools. Now the TSB is trying to introduce a Race based school. As a Catholic who attended a faith based school in the days when we were not funded I was shocked when Frank Miller (Premire of Ontario) decided to fund us. It was wrong. I knew it then and I still believe it today. Faith based schools ARE NOT PUBLIC schools. If you decide to fund a Catholic school system then you need to fund all faith based schools. To do what Dalton McGuinty did by claiming that the public schools must be kept public all the while considering Catholic Schools as public is hypocritical.

2. Marginalization of minorities and especially blacks has never been taken seriously by the mainstream. It's a problem that not everyone can relate to so they don't think about it. Harsher jail sentences are given to blacks than whites for the same crimes and the list goes on.

3. My parents came to this country with very little. My father and mother never got past elementary school in their countries. They were uneducated but they still new the value of an education and pushed my brother and I to make sure we understood that.

4. I fear that blacks are falling into the victim syndrome and it gets worse with every incident. Environmental and social factors are a big influence in the upbringing of the youth. But so is shit like BET and the hip pop culture. The influence of an Afro-Centric school will amount to nothing when you have the media of your society that tells your kids it's ok to "bitch slap whores, fark up the bro that disses you." Oh and dropping the "N" bomb is cool too.

5. I think I'm dreaming as I'm posting this because Broli's posts were coherant and well written. For the most part however.....I agree with him.

6. The model for this school has yet to be worked out. But during the debate proponents of this school system indicated that the students cannot be accessed based on the current school model. The method of assessment, they propose, will be different to address the needs of the children they are teaching. I'm actually quite disgusted to hear this. The black children are being told "we know you're damaged so we will access you different" as if they had some sort of learning disability. A person's dreams needs to exceed their grasp otherwise there is no point.

7. The failure of the black youth is the failure of society. Instead of fixing the broken school system they've decided to throw the baby out with the bath water. You get out of school what YOU PUT INTO IT.

[rktsci]

A lot of posts reflect what I feel about this issue so I won't rehash them...but the biggest thing is how disappointed I am with society that this is considered the only solution to what is a very significant issue. I just don't see how this is a good thing in any way.

[Dan Da Man]

fack some of you guys should have been at that meeting before they voted. Some of yo guys should run for president as well! Screw Obama and Hillary!

[WLS ZMZM]

damnit, i should be writing my papers, but i am compelled to respond.

you should think of marginilization as social quicksand, during the first few generations it is easier to overcome however as the generations pass it is harder and harder to climb out. That being said, there will always be those who make it out, but that doesn't mean it wasn't very difficult and far more difficult that for someone who is marginalized.

Let me put this out before i comment about you, I am half muslim half jewish by birth, however it is my choice to be neither religion and in fact no religion.

as for you specifically, the jewish minority is not marginalized in north america, quite the opposite. in fact still to this day in north america there is no group more marginalized by race/religion than blacks.

blame is multifactorial, certainly the parents are in the mix somewhere, however there are many issues all important, some account for more of the problem than others, perhaps our difference is with where we attribute the root of the problem to be.

i tend to agree with you about curriculum, i think in the long run no matter what it is harmful to have specifically tailored classes.

as for my parent cracking the whip . . nah, i dont want this to come out the wrong way, but i found highshool to be quite easy, so . . no whip cracking required! lol


Now this is getting interesting!!

I like your analogy of the quicksand, very well put. But… you address the key point in your own point. “there will always be those who make it out”. It is these individuals who have strived to escape the “racial mold” for which they were conformed to. I think Cardi puts it best “you get out what you put in”. Now I realize if one generation follows the previous generation then the cycle will continue. But without sounding rude.. how is it the rest of societies problem that we pay for previous generations mistakes. Trends are broken by individuals who want to break them and want to separate themselves from the usual stereotypes, which have been placed upon certain races/religions. However most see it as being easier to just go with what has already been done. I also agree with another point Cardi made… how about some positivie black influences.. I.e. Mr. Obama…. Instead of fifty cent, and The Game etc…

Seperating them will only make matters worse, how is it that you make people feel better about themselves by seperating them. If anything you want to integrate them as much as is possible so they feel better as a whole. A better idea would have been to incorporate more black culture into our public schools. Instead of setting up a separate school, how about running “focus groups” with some of the black students who range in the level of grades, to figure out what they feel would help them further in improving their grades and studies.

I don’t think this is so much race related as it is environmentally related. The race card is just a much easier answer for parents and the community. I guess what I don’t understand is why only help the struggling black students? What about the other struggling students? Since there aren’t as many of them according to the statistics I guess its okay to just sweep them under the rug with the rest of the struggling students province wide. The issue is not race it’s our bootleg education system. Instead of realizing problems early on with subjects such as math or science or even English early on, instead we will just ignore it and hope it corrects itself on it’s own. In order to rectify this problem, more money needs to be spent on the education system itself, not for funding “special schools”.

As for your comment about High school, I was in the same boat, I found it quite easy, but my parents were still actively involved. Not as much during high school as they were in middle school, but when I was younger I was not allowed to go to a friends house or have a friend over until my homework was completed and checked. Which to a lot of people seems excessive, but my parents wanted me to do better then they did, which is usually what most parents want. The best for their children.

[Broli]

Now this is getting interesting!!

I like your analogy of the quicksand, very well put. But… you address the key point in your own point. “there will always be those who make it out”. It is these individuals who have strived to escape the “racial mold” for which they were conformed to. I think Cardi puts it best “you get out what you put in”. Now I realize if one generation follows the previous generation then the cycle will continue. But without sounding rude.. how is it the rest of societies problem that we pay for previous generations mistakes. Trends are broken by individuals who want to break them and want to separate themselves from the usual stereotypes, which have been placed upon certain races/religions. However most see it as being easier to just go with what has already been done. I also agree with another point Cardi made… how about some positivie black influences.. I.e. Mr. Obama…. Instead of fifty cent, and The Game etc…

Seperating them will only make matters worse, how is it that you make people feel better about themselves by seperating them. If anything you want to integrate them as much as is possible so they feel better as a whole. A better idea would have been to incorporate more black culture into our public schools. Instead of setting up a separate school, how about running “focus groups” with some of the black students who range in the level of grades, to figure out what they feel would help them further in improving their grades and studies.

I don’t think this is so much race related as it is environmentally related. The race card is just a much easier answer for parents and the community. I guess what I don’t understand is why only help the struggling black students? What about the other struggling students? Since there aren’t as many of them according to the statistics I guess its okay to just sweep them under the rug with the rest of the struggling students province wide. The issue is not race it’s our bootleg education system. Instead of realizing problems early on with subjects such as math or science or even English early on, instead we will just ignore it and hope it corrects itself on it’s own. In order to rectify this problem, more money needs to be spent on the education system itself, not for funding “special schools”.

As for your comment about High school, I was in the same boat, I found it quite easy, but my parents were still actively involved. Not as much during high school as they were in middle school, but when I was younger I was not allowed to go to a friends house or have a friend over until my homework was completed and checked. Which to a lot of people seems excessive, but my parents wanted me to do better then they did, which is usually what most parents want. The best for their children.


there are a few points that i will address in your statement,

first, i agree! the problem is our education system it is not sufficient, sorely short of it in fact! and truthfully it is very difficult to fix. how do you address the problem where some find it to difficult, others find it to easy, someone mentioned the leveled approach, and to a sence we have it with advanced and general level courses, however that is a choice where u go, you are not assorted based on aptidute and placed in a "dumbass" school. i am glad that i dont have to fix the eduaction system . . because it is really hard work. the one positive that comes from this whole mess is this: the admittance of a problem and the care to do something about it. they just dropped the ball with the approach they chose.

second, the issue that some will make it regardless. this shows two things really. 1. that you can make it if u work hard, but finding people who are willing to work that hard for what they want in all races not just blacks is difficult. people tend to look for the easy way through most things, or make compromises, all the time trading off one thing for another. there are only very few exceptional people who always take the difficult path. due to certain inequalities in life, some people are likely to get very far with taking the easy paths, because they start so much further along the journey then others. 2. is it fair that blacks should have to work much harder than many other populations to be successful scholastically? i know life is not fair, and it is not reasonable to expect it to be. but it is reasonable to understand that as the path gets more and more difficult you have less and less people taking it. it is a basal human tennant to avoid heartship.


5. I think I'm dreaming as I'm posting this because Broli's posts were coherant and well written. For the most part however.....I agree with him.


haha, get an issue that i care about and i can become coherent!




A person's dreams needs to exceed their grasp otherwise there is no point.


this may be one of the most beautful things ever written on the forum!




Broli, you do have valid points. The blacks are being marginalized in ways some of us will never experience. But you have to understand, the stereotypes are there for a reason. Again, it is a matter of the community they grew up in.

I can even list off the top of my head, times when some people (not just blacks) have pulled the race card. It's an easy way out, and an easy solution to a hard issue people just can't seem to solve.

I wouldn't be surprised if an entire school full of high risk students rake up the lowest test scores in the entire country. This is with reference to the person from North Bay, he has seen it first hand with Native students.

I agree, stereotypes are there for a reason but the important thing about stereotypes is that we shouldn't take them seriously. we all know that the are generalizations that are in no way wholly true.

pulling the race card is an appaling act, when not warranted, and i agree that it is used too much in todays society. nonetheless, it should always be pulled when appropriate; to educate ignorant people who dont understand.

if the school gets the lowest grades in the provice, that is fine, the question is how are their grades next year and the year after. Again, i am not for this system, however it is possible and probable that in the short term we will see improvement for these kids, that is not the question, the real question is 20 years from now will these now better educated adults do better in a world that believes in segregation

[crazycanuck]

I have to point out, that it's the same trend in every community and in turn our society as a whole. There will be winners, and there will be losers in our society regardless of race.

I would like to take a break from the race issue for a second, and as you all a simple question:

When you received (constantly) a bad mark during your younger education years, did you immediately attribute this fact to the teacher not liking you? And no matter how hard you tried, you will always receive a bad mark?

I can assume most of you will say yes. I know I was one of those kids who did really bad in geography class. Then, I thought the teacher had it in for me. But in retrospect, thinking about my study habits for that course; I just wasn't trying at all.

It's the same with this race issue, they are pulling the card because it's an easy answer to why they are failing in every aspect of life. Truth of the matter is, you get out of life what you put in.

Be it Black, White, Chinese; if you're a loser, then you're a loser. Simple as that. Nobody is trying to say that more Blacks fail in society than other minorities, but it seems to imply that if they're explicitly separating them from the rest of us.

Welcome to the 1950s.



Now this is getting interesting!!

I like your analogy of the quicksand, very well put. But… you address the key point in your own point. “there will always be those who make it out”. It is these individuals who have strived to escape the “racial mold” for which they were conformed to. I think Cardi puts it best “you get out what you put in”. Now I realize if one generation follows the previous generation then the cycle will continue. But without sounding rude.. how is it the rest of societies problem that we pay for previous generations mistakes. Trends are broken by individuals who want to break them and want to separate themselves from the usual stereotypes, which have been placed upon certain races/religions. However most see it as being easier to just go with what has already been done. I also agree with another point Cardi made… how about some positivie black influences.. I.e. Mr. Obama…. Instead of fifty cent, and The Game etc…

Seperating them will only make matters worse, how is it that you make people feel better about themselves by seperating them. If anything you want to integrate them as much as is possible so they feel better as a whole. A better idea would have been to incorporate more black culture into our public schools. Instead of setting up a separate school, how about running “focus groups” with some of the black students who range in the level of grades, to figure out what they feel would help them further in improving their grades and studies.

I don’t think this is so much race related as it is environmentally related. The race card is just a much easier answer for parents and the community. I guess what I don’t understand is why only help the struggling black students? What about the other struggling students? Since there aren’t as many of them according to the statistics I guess its okay to just sweep them under the rug with the rest of the struggling students province wide. The issue is not race it’s our bootleg education system. Instead of realizing problems early on with subjects such as math or science or even English early on, instead we will just ignore it and hope it corrects itself on it’s own. In order to rectify this problem, more money needs to be spent on the education system itself, not for funding “special schools”.

As for your comment about High school, I was in the same boat, I found it quite easy, but my parents were still actively involved. Not as much during high school as they were in middle school, but when I was younger I was not allowed to go to a friends house or have a friend over until my homework was completed and checked. Which to a lot of people seems excessive, but my parents wanted me to do better then they did, which is usually what most parents want. The best for their children.

[WLS ZMZM]

there are a few points that i will address in your statement,

first, i agree! the problem is our education system it is not sufficient, sorely short of it in fact! and truthfully it is very difficult to fix. how do you address the problem where some find it to difficult, others find it to easy, someone mentioned the leveled approach, and to a sence we have it with advanced and general level courses, however that is a choice where u go, you are not assorted based on aptidute and placed in a "dumbass" school. i am glad that i dont have to fix the eduaction system . . because it is really hard work. the one positive that comes from this whole mess is this: the admittance of a problem and the care to do something about it. they just dropped the ball with the approach they chose.

second, the issue that some will make it regardless. this shows two things really. 1. that you can make it if u work hard, but finding people who are willing to work that hard for what they want in all races not just blacks is difficult. people tend to look for the easy way through most things, or make compromises, all the time trading off one thing for another. there are only very few exceptional people who always take the difficult path. due to certain inequalities in life, some people are likely to get very far with taking the easy paths, because they start so much further along the journey then others. 2. is it fair that blacks should have to work much harder than many other populations to be successful scholastically? i know life is not fair, and it is not reasonable to expect it to be. but it is reasonable to understand that as the path gets more and more difficult you have less and less people taking it. it is a basal human tennant to avoid heartship.



haha, get an issue that i care about and i can become coherent!




this may be one of the most beautful things ever written on the forum!





I agree, stereotypes are there for a reason but the important thing about stereotypes is that we shouldn't take them seriously. we all know that the are generalizations that are in no way wholly true.

pulling the race card is an appaling act, when not warranted, and i agree that it is used too much in todays society. nonetheless, it should always be pulled when appropriate; to educate ignorant people who dont understand.

if the school gets the lowest grades in the provice, that is fine, the question is how are their grades next year and the year after. Again, i am not for this system, however it is possible and probable that in the short term we will see improvement for these kids, that is not the question, the real question is 20 years from now will these now better educated adults do better in a world that believes in segregation

To start I most certainly agree, those who are responsible for fixing the education system.. I wish them the best of luck cuz they will need it!!!! And a lot of it.

Unfortunately, one’s work ethic has always played a major part, whether it be at school, in your social life or in your work environment. The only exception being those damn rich kids who get everything handed to them on a silver platter! In order to get ahead you really have to work hard at it. Now no one wants to work hard everyone would rather it be easy but if that were the case life wouldn’t be challenging now would it? I think it is unfair to make the generalization that blacks have to work harder to be successful scholastically. Again an individuals study habits are just that an “individuals issue”. I don’t think you can generalize for the race. I’m sure most people realize life is not fair, but eventually come to accept it. How is it that they have to work harder?? Are they not brought up on the same education system? If they were educated at a lower tier maybe I could agree with your point, but it is not the case. It becomes their own personal choice not to focus on studies. As for scholastic success, what does it say about those who immigrate to Canada? Those who don’t speak english, they realize the need to work hard in order to excel, and they take that upon themselves in order to do so. They do not blame society for their downfalls, only use them to further inspire themselves to succeed. Why should they get a free ride because they don’t want to work hard. That wouldn’t be fair to the rest of the population, who has to work hard.

The issue becomes this, we as a society have become way to PC, and we are way too worried to step on a few toes to get things done. Anytime race or religion comes into play the government ***** foots around the issue so as to not offend anyone. This is the wrong idea, instead of trying to please everyone tell it how it is. The government was against this.. but instead of causing issues with them, they gave the public what they wanted. I think it’s disgusting that the one black counsellor on the board was given a rough time by people because she voted against it. If the black community really feels that segregation is the answer I think they need to heed their own advice and take a look at some black history. They have made some major strides in the past and are now focused on doing everything possible to reverse this!

[dj_chinaman2097]

Originally Posted by Wild Weasel
"They mentioned afrocentric math classes among other things. WTF is it about math that needs to be blacker??"

I almost farted out loud when I read this because it made me laugh so hard. Now my coworkers know I'm slacking off.

[Unoriginalusername]

i spent my whole life learning how great a diverse culture is and now our tax dollars are going to step back into a 1960's approach? Horrible idea IMO

[PlatMS6]

What will the little kids think when they realise they are going to a "special" school because they are of a certain race and can't stack up to a general curriculum.

You also know that the kids will tease each other after school... it's inescapable, anything that's out of place is open to teasing when the kids are young. It will create more barriers and negative perceptions guaranteed!

Also whoever says that you need an ethnicly/racialy charged curriculum to get someone to study needs special attention themselves. What they are pretty much saying is that all of these kids have fome degree of ADD.... if it's not interesting and about their history then it's not worth learning???

Hell so I should have told my Physics teacher to piss off then I guess, because Nikola Tesla wasn't mentioned when other fools that barely amounted to anything had chapters in the text books/curriculum. Give me a break...

[DingBat]

Excuse me, but didn't we just have a provincial election in which the idea of publicly supported faith based schools was a major issue and which ended up being emphatically rejected?

I'm disgusted, but not surprised, that the TDSB didn't have the balls to vote this down.

[midnightfxgt]

I think it’s disgusting that the one black counsellor on the board was given a rough time by people because she voted against it.

Imagine that... A black person who went through post secondary education and everything, and does NOT feel the need for this. The school is a fine idea.... just not with tax dollars!

[Cardinal Fang]

2. is it fair that blacks should have to work much harder than many other populations to be successful scholastically?

Help me to understand this. I'm not saying this because I don't believe it's true but because I really have a hard time grasping when this is being said.

1. Is it because Mrs. Teacher sees a child of colour and automatically assumes their criminals (or stupid) and then marks them down on purpose?
2. Is it because the education system as we have it is stacked to purposely punish people of colour?
3. Is it because people of colour feel that they're not at home in their own schools?

I'm not being sarcastic with this comment Broli. I just want to know exactly what it is in our current educational system that keeps people of colour down. I listened to the debate on the radio and kept hearing this over and over and I couldn't understand it. They referred for the need to teach "Black history." Ok then....so then if we teach "Black history" and make the kids feel that their race contributed greatly in our society will that magically reverse the drop out rate?

I hated history when I was in school. As an immigrant to this country I found it boring and bewildering how a bunch of drunks could exit a bar, cause a street fight and have that labeled as a rebellion. I know nothing about my ethnic history. But it never stopped me from exceeding.

What I believe that everybody is avoiding the problem like the elephant in the room. I think it has to do with what people of colour are taught to believe. Education doesn't amount to anything. Do even bother because society is stacked against you. We were persecuted in the past so lets live in that moment rather than move forward. Society is to blame for where we are now, we had nothing to do with it. Society has made great strides to balance the past inequities. And it needs to make more strides. But I don't buy into the notion that their is a conspiracy.



i know life is not fair, and it is not reasonable to expect it to be. but it is reasonable to understand that as the path gets more and more difficult you have less and less people taking it. it is a basal human tennant to avoid heartship.

This is true Broli. But you must also realize that life is not fair and is hard at the best of times. The good things in life take time and above all else takes a heck of alot of effort. I won't want it any other way. Why? Because this is the way you weed out those that are not serious. Those that are in it for the ride. I want the best of the best in positions of importance in society.

" Two roads diverged in a wood, and I—
I took the one less traveled by,
And that has made all the difference." - Robert Frost

We caudal everything nowadays. We can't tell children their wrong because it detrimental to their well being. Parents want to be their children's friend rather than their parents. We have a self-help industry growing up around the fact that there is nothing wrong with how you feel. You're ok..it's everyone else that is to blame.

ME ME ME ME ME.

Say goodbye to personal responsibility.

[rktsci]

I found this really good post by a writer on Canoe.ca about this issue.

http://blog.canoe.ca/canoedossier/2008/01/31/africentric_schools_a_misguided_concept

I tend to agree with a lot of what he is saying.

[crazycanuck]

I got a little turned on by this Fang :p

And I'm facebooking the Robert Frost quote.


QUOTE=Cardinal Fang;256027]Help me to understand this. I'm not saying this because I don't believe it's true but because I really have a hard time grasping when this is being said.

1. Is it because Mrs. Teacher sees a child of colour and automatically assumes their criminals (or stupid) and then marks them down on purpose?
2. Is it because the education system as we have it is stacked to purposely punish people of colour?
3. Is it because people of colour feel that they're not at home in their own schools?

I'm not being sarcastic with this comment Broli. I just want to know exactly what it is in our current educational system that keeps people of colour down. I listened to the debate on the radio and kept hearing this over and over and I couldn't understand it. They referred for the need to teach "Black history." Ok then....so then if we teach "Black history" and make the kids feel that their race contributed greatly in our society will that magically reverse the drop out rate?

I hated history when I was in school. As an immigrant to this country I found it boring and bewildering how a bunch of drunks could exit a bar, cause a street fight and have that labeled as a rebellion. I know nothing about my ethnic history. But it never stopped me from exceeding.

What I believe that everybody is avoiding the problem like the elephant in the room. I think it has to do with what people of colour are taught to believe. Education doesn't amount to anything. Do even bother because society is stacked against you. We were persecuted in the past so lets live in that moment rather than move forward. Society is to blame for where we are now, we had nothing to do with it. Society has made great strides to balance the past inequities. And it needs to make more strides. But I don't buy into the notion that their is a conspiracy.



This is true Broli. But you must also realize that life is not fair and is hard at the best of times. The good things in life take time and above all else takes a heck of alot of effort. I won't want it any other way. Why? Because this is the way you weed out those that are not serious. Those that are in it for the ride. I want the best of the best in positions of importance in society.

" Two roads diverged in a wood, and I—
I took the one less traveled by,
And that has made all the difference." - Robert Frost

We caudal everything nowadays. We can't tell children their wrong because it detrimental to their well being. Parents want to be their children's friend rather than their parents. We have a self-help industry growing up around the fact that there is nothing wrong with how you feel. You're ok..it's everyone else that is to blame.

ME ME ME ME ME.

Say goodbye to personal responsibility.[/QUOTE]

[midnightfxgt]

I found this really good post by a writer on Canoe.ca about this issue.

http://blog.canoe.ca/canoedossier/2008/01/31/africentric_schools_a_misguided_concept

I tend to agree with a lot of what he is saying.

Excellent Link!

[Wild Weasel]

Help me to understand this. I'm not saying this because I don't believe it's true but because I really have a hard time grasping when this is being said.

1. Is it because Mrs. Teacher sees a child of colour and automatically assumes their criminals (or stupid) and then marks them down on purpose?
2. Is it because the education system as we have it is stacked to purposely punish people of colour?
3. Is it because people of colour feel that they're not at home in their own schools?


This is a big part of the problem. It's true that many underprivileged black kids have to work much harder than others to succeed, but none of your questions address the reasons why. The fact is, the schools are not stacked against them. It's their upbringing that's stacking the odds.

If your parents value your education and encourage and reward you for doing well, you'll feel good about it and want to succeed.

If your parents don't care, or actively discourage you by telling you it's pointless or worthless or whatever, then you're going to have to work that much harder to motivate yourself to succeed. You have to understand that your parents are wrong and that you can only rely on yourself to succeed. That's not an easy thing for anyone to do, much less a kid of primary school age that needs to develop good work habits! If they're already failing by high school, then it's probably too late for most.

None of this is the fault of the school system and none of this is being addressed by this afrocentric school initiative. What they need is more counselling and programs for ALL kids in primary grades. Hell, they need to teach from a very early age that while you should respect and obey your parents, you should also expect that they'll be wrong about a lot of things and that you need to try to recognize the important things on your own.


I hated history when I was in school. As an immigrant to this country I found it boring and bewildering how a bunch of drunks could exit a bar, cause a street fight and have that labeled as a rebellion. I know nothing about my ethnic history. But it never stopped me from exceeding.

Same here. I think of myself as Canadian. A product of growing up in a Canadian town with Canadian values. What's my ethnic heritage? Who cares? It had no bearing on my life so far as I can tell.



What I believe that everybody is avoiding the problem like the elephant in the room. I think it has to do with what people of colour are taught to believe. Education doesn't amount to anything. Do even bother because society is stacked against you. We were persecuted in the past so lets live in that moment rather than move forward. Society is to blame for where we are now, we had nothing to do with it. Society has made great strides to balance the past inequities. And it needs to make more strides. But I don't buy into the notion that their is a conspiracy.


Agreed.

[WLS ZMZM]

QUOTE=Cardinal Fang;256027]

We caudal everything nowadays. We can't tell children their wrong because it detrimental to their well being. Parents want to be their children's friend rather than their parents. We have a self-help industry growing up around the fact that there is nothing wrong with how you feel. You're ok..it's everyone else that is to blame.

ME ME ME ME ME.

Say goodbye to personal responsibility.[/QUOTE]

I strongly agree with this Fang... you really hit it on the nose! Instead of being upfront and honest we beat behind the bushes as to not offend anyone.

[Cardinal Fang]

Will you asshats please stop agreeing with me. I came here for a good argument!

</Monty Python>

[WLS ZMZM]

sorry when you make a valid point you make a valid point you asshat!

[Wild Weasel]

Would it be unethical to start lobbying in favour of these schools so that the children of uneducated ignorant people will not have to intermingle with our own and hold them back?

I mean... at the end of the day, the people who end up going to these schools are not going to go because they're black. Socially responsible black people are going to continue sending their kids to the regular schools. It's those with a chip on their shoulder who think the white schools are the problem who are going to send their kids, right?

So won't this benefit the rest of the kids at their expense?

*running away*

[mogul_pro]

it can be simple

less of you there
not many black teachers
reading books that aren't written by black authors
learning canadian history and no black history (i didn't learn a thing about black history in highschool)

it is hard to be in the minority sometimes perhaps, and children as less equipped to handle it than adults

Not as many black people = les black teachers.. direct relation to the population demographic, same with black authors.

Learning Canadian history VS Black History... well we are in Canada... and are for the most part all Canadians, so yes of course we will learn Canadian History.... to me thats a no brainer.

[mogul_pro]

I see people compairing religous schools to the proposed 'black schools'.

I went to a Catholic Highschool.. and there were MANY people that went there of ALL races AND religions. Those students who were NOT catholic were in NO WAY forced to participate in the religous events IE: Going to church once a month ect.
I often asked why go to a catholic school if your not a catholic? They all said they wanted to be in a school with uniforms, and they thought they would get a better education for there fields of interest. That to me makes total sence.

Now... if you have a "black" school, will white people be allowed to go AND have the same treatment that non-catholics did in a school like mine that I just mentioned?

Also something to think about... just IMAGINE the uproar if someone even suggested the idea of a "white only school". The word Racist would fly every other word for months in the news!

That being said I do not think a school should be based race. I also agree with most of your points about having just one public system, however there has been much success with little problem having a 2 tear public and catholic system.

[Wild Weasel]

Yes. Anyone and everyone will be allowed to go to the black schools.

Really though... who's actually going to send their kids to one? I don't even think black students of educated and socially responsible parents are going to go.

[mogul_pro]

I don't even think black students of educated and socially responsible students are going to go.

I agree.

[WLS ZMZM]

yeah I agree mogul... white school would automatically mean KKK backing... but in this situation its different it always seems to be different. I think WW has the right idea educated families will not let their kids go to this school. It seems alot of less educated people think this is a great idea, not sure why but they do

[SirWanker]

ummmm voluntary segregation?

[crazycanuck]

I think all of you should read the book "Capitalist Ni****"

The author talks about how the black community have become a total consumer race within western societies. And goes in depth about how every other minority (Jews and Asians in particular) are able to thrive and contribute to the society; where only blacks whine and tout racism for their lack of progress.

Very interesting book, and highly controversial as you can imagine.

For those of you wondering, the author is black.

[mogul_pro]

Leason #1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=65zXlytv01c

NOTE: There will be a pop quiz when the "white devil" pulls you over o nthe way home from school this afternoon!

*rolls eyes*

[WLS ZMZM]

looks like a good book, have to go to chapters and check it out

[Broli]

I think all of you should read the book "Capitalist Ni****"

The author talks about how the black community have become a total consumer race within western societies. And goes in depth about how every other minority (Jews and Asians in particular) are able to thrive and contribute to the society; where only blacks whine and tout racism for their lack of progress.

Very interesting book, and highly controversial as you can imagine.

For those of you wondering, the author is black.


i wish i had to time to read this book,

but the Jews and Asians in particular are currently stereotyped in more 'positive' ways. i say positive in quotes because no stereotyping is positive. nonetheless, for the most part the stereotypes are not as damaging to them in north american society. this cannot be disputed. As well rates of change in acceptance for Asians and Jews on a whole is much faster than that for Blacks. If someone tells you something for such a long time, it is difficult to over come not because you believe what they tell you is true, because it seems hopeless to fight it.

can we solve the problem of high drop out rates at the education system level . . honestly, no!

it is a societal issue, and as such it is slow to fix.

[WLS ZMZM]

i wish i had to time to read this book,

but the Jews and Asians in particular are currently stereotyped in more 'positive' ways. i say positive in quotes because no stereotyping is positive. nonetheless, for the most part the stereotypes are not as damaging to them in north american society. this cannot be disputed. As well rates of change in acceptance for Asians and Jews on a whole is much faster than that for Blacks. If someone tells you something for such a long time, it is difficult to over come not because you believe what they tell you is true, because it seems hopeless to fight it.

can we solve the problem of high drop out rates at the education system level . . honestly, no!

it is a societal issue, and as such it is slow to fix.

As much of a surprise as this is going to be I don't agree.... Stereotypes are everywhere... but how can you say they are not as damaging?? I apologize to all the asian members, but I mean really... talk about a stereotype of "asians not being able to drive" how is that not as damaging... it something that is constantly discussed... by individuals.. to the point where even my asian friends make comments.

All it is, is an excuse, a point that allows them to blame their own individual failure. In doing so we are condoning this and allowing it, and in doing so encourage them to use this excuse. Being a Jew I constantly get the whoe "cheap" stereotype... am I cheap.. not always besides I refer to it as being "cost efficient" :chuckle But I don't use that as an excuse for any of my downfalls.

As for overcoming difficult times, okay I get the fact that they've had it hard, but truthfully what race or religion hasn't had their "struggle" If we were living in the Southern United states, maybe I'd be more sympathetic, but we live in Canada... and Toronto more specifically. You can't pull that B.s in a melting pot of cultures, especially when other cultures are working their ass off to get ahead, sometimes you just need to shut up stop blaming the world and get on with it. If they put as much effort into changing as they do whining their would be no issue!

[midnightfxgt]

I agree with WLS ZMZM. If you take the Asian example provided (and we assume there was statistical data showing Asians are in more accidents than others), does that mean people of an asian decent should have to complete a different driving test? I mean afterall, they have to face a stereotype... so instead of overcoming it, why not just make new rules for them?

Broli.... I will be at the La Paloma meet this week... BE THERE! lol :)

[Broli]

John, there seems to be a misunderstanding, i am against the afrocentric school. so to address the statement about the driving test . . i agree!

i cant be at the paloma meet, i am super busy these days with school.

Will, how can u say being called cheap or being called a bad driver or good at math the same as being called a criminal. certainly in the past there have been more negative and damaging stereotypes than those, but nowadays these are the most prevelant in north america.

I am not saying that people should have things handed to them or that they should be walked on eggshells around because they have been discriminated in the past. i am very opposed to that, and i am not saying it is ok to not fight as a people because you had hard times in the past. i am saying that as a reasonable person i understand the difficulties in overcoming such a past. As such, yes many blacks (or the average black person) may have to work twice as hard to accomplish the same as some other cultures. it is an obligation, however it is not easy, and it is not fair but it is life.

all i am saying is i recognize that situation.



the ones who bitch and whine about the situation are the same ones that cause the sterotypes, the majority spend everyday working hard and trying to get ahead. they get a bum wrap from the small minority unfortuanately it is the small minority that is the loudest and this is in a significant way the fault of the north american media preferentially displaying them to the masses.

[WLS ZMZM]

John, there seems to be a misunderstanding, i am against the afrocentric school. so to address the statement about the driving test . . i agree!

i cant be at the paloma meet, i am super busy these days with school.

Will, how can u say being called cheap or being called a bad driver or good at math the same as being called a criminal. certainly in the past there have been more negative and damaging stereotypes than those, but nowadays these are the most prevelant in north america.

I am not saying that people should have things handed to them or that they should be walked on eggshells around because they have been discriminated in the past. i am very opposed to that, and i am not saying it is ok to not fight as a people because you had hard times in the past. i am saying that as a reasonable person i understand the difficulties in overcoming such a past. As such, yes many blacks (or the average black person) may have to work twice as hard to accomplish the same as some other cultures. it is an obligation, however it is not easy, and it is not fair but it is life.

all i am saying is i recognize that situation.



the ones who bitch and whine about the situation are the same ones that cause the sterotypes, the majority spend everyday working hard and trying to get ahead. they get a bum wrap from the small minority unfortuanately it is the small minority that is the loudest and this is in a significant way the fault of the north american media preferentially displaying them to the masses.

valid point.. I'll give you that... but as for the criminal label.. that *without sounding racist* was brought on by their own people, if they stopped sensationilizing gang life and stopped dressing like "bad ass" gangstaz maybe they'd get a little respect. I understand that it's not fair to judge by how they dress etc.. .but there has to be some certain level of professionalism. Sadly the hip hop culture has taken a hold of their society, but only by their own doing.

My point is instead of trying to make a more positive impact they are too focused on the negative. I do agree that the minority of them is causing the issue, but unfortunately until the majority of them speak up and fight for their rights, and voice their opinions. We have to listen to the facist and racist BS that the minority are claiming. Sadly that is what gets the attention, as the violins get broken out and so on and so forth.

As for the jew thing... don't forget my friend.. maybe in the City it is more accepted, but let's not forget the hate crimes last year committed in thornhill, having swastika's plastered on your house and car are hardly welcoming or not discriminating. Not to mention the fact of a few small towns up north who are not very "jew friendly" but I don't blame my current situation on people's ignorance and intolerance, instead I use that as strength to prove them wrong.

Instead of this community using the peoples ignorance against them, they rather just be lazy and be ignorant as well since it's easier. I'm sorry there are many other cultures in this city who have it worse, or who work hard, but you don't hear them complain, they are just excited at the chance to have a chance at a better life, and don't expect it to be handed to them as certain discussed communities. It's always about "what you put in is what you get out" Instead of having the attitude of "lifes like a di*k when it gets hard f*ck it" instead realize that the only ones they are screwing are themselves and actually put forth an effort, who knows what could be accomplished.

[midnightfxgt]

Alex... I am just bustin your chops bro... its all good! Dont be affraid to admit you scared to come to the meet in fear of a smack down ;)

[Cardinal Fang]

Sadly the hip hop culture has taken a hold of their society, but only by their own doing. .

Sadly, the "hip hop gangster wannabe" culture has taken hold of many suburban "whites." Although the problem may seem most prevalent in the one segment of our society it definitely has crossed over into other cultures.

It's apparently cool to sound and act like an illiterate moron.

[mogul_pro]

It's apparently cool to sound and act like an illiterate moron.

Guess I missed that memo...

[crazycanuck]

It's apparently cool to sound and act like an illiterate moron.

*cough* Fang *cough*