TTC Strike

[S.F.W.]

Looks like some people are going to be stuck downtown. TTC rejected the agreement, and is striking at midnight.
http://www.thestar.com/News/GTA/article/418711

[JonsMazda]

Jeez, what happened to the 48hours notice there...

[Kevin@nextmod]

i guess the happiest ones are the cab drivers

[Swerny]

pathetic

greedy bastids

[new3]

extremely disappointed with the TTC union

[b.rabbit]

I hope this strike is resolved by Monday.

Striking is only going to make ppl even more angry with the TTC, which will mean that the TTC workers are going to be spat on, beaten on, or whatever some more because patrons are so furious!

Don't know the details of the deal, but..wtf. :complain

[mazdaagain]

How much more do they want ? There are ticket collectors that make $100 K a year ... for sitting on their a** and watching others go to work !!

[chinsterr]

pathetic

greedy bastids


extremely disappointed with the TTC union


I hope this strike is resolved by Monday.

Striking is only going to make ppl even more angry with the TTC, which will mean that the TTC workers are going to be spat on, beaten on, or whatever some more because patrons are so furious!

Don't know the details of the deal, but..wtf. :complain


How much more do they want ? There are ticket collectors that make $100 K a year ... for sitting on their a** and watching others go to work !!

Thanks guys , I guess your forgetting that some of us work for the TTC.

I couldn't be happier ! I haven't even started my first day of work yet and it looks like I am going to get a 4% raise already!

Come spit at me @ davisville station, I am the construction project leader (or whatever) down there :)

[Flagrum_3]

Thanks guys , I guess your forgetting that some of us work for the TTC. :)

+1, I love it when people start spewing out of their mouths when they know absolutely nothing!! :loco

...To those who would like to badmouth all my brothers at Local 113, wait till you understand the details and please don't go by just politician's statements or bad media, before making any further comments.

Oh and by the way that guy who made 100k in a booth!!, he basically lived in his booth the whole year....Anyone here like putting in 70 hrs a week? cause thats what he did :chuckle

I suspect/hope it'll be over before Monday morning :)


_3


.

[bluntman]

A strike is never good, for either side...believe me, I've been there, twice. Let's hope this gets resolved in a fair manner, and soon.

[dumpbear]

I just lost all respect for the TTC. Not honouring the 48 hours notice that they promised to the city is irresponsible.

[lesnar]

make it essential service or get rid of all the employees and hire from scratch. I'm sure there are thousands who are willing to work for them for less.

[zedtech]

After talking to a couple of my buddies who work for the TTC, I can understand their side, especially the maintenance workers, but striking so suddenly giving only 2-3 hours notice is irresponsible imo. I don't see how striking that suddenly will help your cause, especially with the people you want on your side the most... your own riders.

From The Star:

One man, who tried to get on a southbound train after they had just closed off the service about 11:50, starting cursing at her.

"We have to stick together," the ticket collector said. "If they are going to contract out with the maintenance people, where does it end?"

But other TTC workers were less sympathetic.

"It's not right to do it at midnight, we should just shut down at 2:30 at the end of service," said Wayne Cook, ticket collector at Ossington, swarmed by confused commuters. "Bob Kinnear has a lot to answer for, for the way he's handled things."

[fini]

To those here who work for TTC, what were the major concerns that the union had as a collective?

I just want a better understanding.

[Flagrum_3]

After talking to a couple of my buddies who work for the TTC, I can understand their side, especially the maintenance workers, but striking so suddenly giving only 2-3 hours notice is irresponsible imo. I don't see how striking that suddenly will help your cause, especially with the people you want on your side the most... your own riders.

From The Star:

Just so everyone understands 'WHY' there was no notice given!...It was done to protect the TTC employees-i.e; drivers in particular, from getting any undo treatment or from being assualted by members of the public.

This was done inlight of the FACT that there were many drivers assualted and accosted last weekend during the original 48 hours notice.The union has the legal responsibility as does the TTC to protect the safety of their members/employees.


I hope that clears that up.


_3


.

[zedtech]

Ahh that clears some of it up, thanks. Have they disclosed this reasoning to the public (or through the media) though?

[tweak_s]

Well I just hope everything gets resolved soon in a fair manner where both parties are satisfied

A strike is never good...especially for something like the TTC. Hope everything is done by Monday.

[Flagrum_3]

Ahh that clears some of it up, thanks. Have they disclosed this reasoning to the public (or through the media) though?

Yes it has.


_3


.

[zedtech]

TTC back by Monday?

Legislature meets Sunday to mull back-to-work legislation: http://www.thestar.com/News/GTA/article/418772

[Jeff-TheBiz]

Oh and by the way that guy who made 100k in a booth!!, he basically lived in his booth the whole year....Anyone here like putting in 70 hrs a week? cause thats what he did :chuckle

even at 70hrs a week... it still works out to $27.50 an hour... not bad.

[Swerny]

even at 70hrs a week... it still works out to $27.50 an hour... not bad.

yeah, for sitting on his ass.

Exactly what special skills are required to do that job?


Just so everyone understands 'WHY' there was no notice given!...It was done to protect the TTC employees-i.e; drivers in particular, from getting any undo treatment or from being assualted by members of the public.

This was done inlight of the FACT that there were many drivers assualted and accosted last weekend during the original 48 hours notice.The union has the legal responsibility as does the TTC to protect the safety of their members/employees.


I hope that clears that up.

_3
.


That's a complete load of crap.

They could have finished their shifts at 2 am or whenever and not left thousands of people stranded.

No notice was given, so they could have just not shown up for work this morning.

[Flagrum_3]

That's a complete load of crap.

They could have finished their shifts at 2 am or whenever and not left thousands of people stranded.

No notice was given, so they could have just not shown up for work this morning.

The word irresponsible seems to be the key word being used by asshats like Mayor Miller and John Tory....So I'll just say this, as mentioned before the Union and the TTC are obligated by law in assuring the safety and security of their workers-nothing new, all employers have that obligation...Now it would have been irrespondsible inlight of last weeks events to have our drivers on a Friday night no less, where many of the patrons have had much to much alcohol in their systems, to have them (our drivers) put in that situation.

Like it or not it was a safety issue and unless you've ever done the job you would never understand.The union has the right to strike by Law and by law needs to give no prior notice, so like I said before it was a matter of safety and completely lawful....Would you have rather they announced it on Sunday night?


_3


.


even at 70hrs a week... it still works out to $27.50 an hour... not bad.


yeah, for sitting on his ass.

Exactly what special skills are required to do that job?

And what exactly do you think justifies your earnings? What skills exactly do your jobs intale? ...never mind I don't really care, but don't go demeaning another's livelyhood until you've been in their shoes...remember; The grass always looks greener on the other side of the fence. :)


_3


.

[zedtech]

So because people think the way the TTC suddenly went on strike was irresponsible, they're asshats? I've said my piece on the strike (from an outsider's point of view) plus I see the validity of the TTC and the riders (having spoken to people on both sides) so I won't continue on.

BTW, http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/irrespondsible :)

[chinsterr]

yeah, for sitting on his ass.

Exactly what special skills are required to do that job?

Lots of people get paid for sitting on their asses ... look at politicians .

Stop hating.

[iconicrocket]

How much do TTC workers make? I hope the public is getting the service they deserve.

[Skarbro]

Thankfully, they will likely be forced to go back to work by Monday via legislation.

The TTC is too important to have the power to strike.

[iconicrocket]

The only people getting hurt in this strike is the general public. Kinda feel sorry for the people that have to depend on the TTC to get to work. Lucky for me school is over.

[Flagrum_3]

The only people getting hurt in this strike is the general public. Kinda feel sorry for the people that have to depend on the TTC to get to work. Lucky for me school is over.

Thats not entirely true, I'm getting hurt along with all my brothers/sisters at Local 113, by the time I get back to work, hopefully tomorrow night, I'll have lost $400 in wages!!....

Although it is tough to swallow being that Local 113 went on strike Friday night with no warning, the positive side is we should be back hopefully Sunday night by (agreement or legislation) giving us the oppurtunity to get the buses ready for Monday morning service....I'm crossing my fingers anyways!


_3


.

[midnightfxgt]

I personally think it was irresponsible myself also.

Why would going on strike at 2:30am when the service shuts down have been worse? If its done at the END of a shift, you dont mess up others nights, and impact everyone else.

The right to strike immediatly is, of course, their right. However, why sit there and LIE to everyone else, and assure them you will give 48 hour notice? If your looking for support from the general public, stranding innocent people en route to their location, and falling back on promises is not the way to do it.

I do respect the union sticking up for the maintanace workers etc... just not in the fashion it was done.

FYI - My salary is based on education, experience, and a specific skill set. Cant say that for everyone making over $20/hour. ;)

-John

[Acradian9]

they should honestly put the no strike law on public transportation since so many people rely on it...public transportation is a necessity for a big city like toronto...so many other cities have this law such as nyc...i hope they get back to work asap since so many uoft students still have exams to write and it'll be a bitch to try to get to downtown for a 9am exam....

[iconicrocket]

Thats not entirely true, I'm getting hurt along with all my brothers/sisters at Local 113, by the time I get back to work, hopefully tomorrow night, I'll have lost $400 in wages!!....

.

How does that compare to the vast majority of the general public that makes $12-13/hr that depends on the TTC to get to work? Or the single mothers that lives off minimum wage?

[Flagrum_3]

they should honestly put the no strike law on public transportation since so many people rely on it...public transportation is a necessity for a big city like toronto...so many other cities have this law such as nyc...i hope they get back to work asap since so many uoft students still have exams to write and it'll be a bitch to try to get to downtown for a 9am exam....

Hey that sounds great but it would mean making the TTC an Essential Service, which the politicians keep ***** footing around the issue i.e David Miller....McGuinty has basically said he's all for it but the GTA must ask for it....it would solve alot of problems and take our right to strike away!


_3


.




FYI - My salary is based on education, experience, and a specific skill set. Cant say that for everyone making over $20/hour. ;)

-John

So is mine, 2 Journeymans cards, Several college diplomas and certificates and 30 years working experience....but remember there's alot of people making much more than $20 hr with alot less.....its a useless argument.


_3


.


How does that compare to the vast majority of the general public that makes $12-13/hr that depends on the TTC to get to work? Or the single mothers that lives off minimum wage?

Hey anyone can apply to the TTC! ...and many have but never get past the driving test for one thing- 300 out of 500 failed in the last batch!....But I would suggest applying to the City first they have it much better there.

Also understand that what someone makes is usually directly proportional to thier skill set, knowledge and last but not least drive.


_3


.

[midnightfxgt]

So is mine, 2 Journeymans cards, Several college diplomas and certificates and 30 years working experience....but remember there's alot of people making much more than $20 hr with alot less.....its a useless argument.


_3


.

I am reffering to a guy sitting in a ticket booth. Obvioulsy I have never worked that job, but I would think that just about anyone could do it.

-John

[little_wheelz]

I'd like to know who builds the scheduled so that one ticket collector worked 70hr weeks and made 100K.

Also, I find it sort of ironic that everyone is so pumped up about the TTC strike.... considering this is a car forum.... (p.s. I take the TTC everyday for work)

[iconicrocket]

Hey anyone can apply to the TTC! ...and many have but never get past the driving test for one thing- 300 out of 500 failed in the last batch!....But I would suggest applying to the City first they have it much better there.

Also understand that what someone makes is usually directly proportional to thier skill set, knowledge and last but not least drive.


_3


.

I was talking about the people that are suffering from the strike. Obviously, you losing $400 isn't going to be an issue.

[Dragazn]

I drive, hate the bus, hate the TTC, not the workers but just the system.

I live in Richmond Hill, work downtown. I don't trust GO parking stations for parking or even other parking lots for commutting.

Not much impact on me, but driving my family, girlfriend and the amount of traffic downtown is making me C R A Z Y. I was stuck from bloor and jane to bloor and the 404 for 2 hours. (damn girl wanted to get her hair done at THAT specific salon).

[zedtech]

TTC ordered back to work.

http://www.thestar.com/GTA/Transportation/article/418964

[Flagrum_3]

I am reffering to a guy sitting in a ticket booth. Obvioulsy I have never worked that job, but I would think that just about anyone could do it.

-John

^ Most anyone can do the job? Your probably right (technically) but then alot of people would'nt want to...long hours sitting in a booth, which by the way you can't leave even to do the washroom without calling control.Plus the fact you have to deal with alot of abuse! and the threats!...believe me its not a cake walk.Anyways most booth collectors are ex-drivers with lots of seniority.

To answer little_wheelz's question, as a booth collector there is always the opportunity for overtime; people call in sick, vacation coverage and yes some schedule blunders etc; they are asked if they want to work part of someone elses shift. This guy obviously never said no .Mind you he might have to travel to another part of the city to cover for someone, which is no party.

To iconirocket; Oh ok so my loosing $400 or so is no issue.So what is? What do you mean by suffering?? So people on Friday night might have had to get a cab for $50...I don't think any "single mothers with kids" would be up let alone out at 12 midnight, or so I would think!.Some people had to change plans or call home to get a ride back...I think thats classified as inconveniences not suffering.Point is its never a good time to strike! Yes some will be inconvenienced but it could have been worse as I mentioned earlier.They could have called the strike Sunday night stranding everyone; 1.5 million users on Monday morning...which would you have preferred?...the union knew they would be ordered back to work by legislation within a couple of days because most of the paper work had been completed last weekend!! The politicians had to be inconvenienced, to show in commons and vote on a Sunday (took them 45 minutes by the way) to pass the order...maybe that was the plan all the time! to wake the politicians up and get them thinking "Essential Service"!!

By the way everyone can help so this doesn't happen again by just writing or calling the Mayor's office and demanding he make TTC an essential service!....problem solved.

Anyways I'm back to work tonight at 11pm, just got my call...Please be nice to your TTC drivers!


_3


.

[Noisy Crow]

Oh ok so my loosing $400 or so is no issue.So what is? What do you mean by suffering?? So people on Friday night might have had to get a cab for $50...I don't think any "single mothers with kids" would be up let alone out at 12 midnight, or so I would think!

Some of the poorest paid people work the afternoon and midnight shifts... cleaners, factory workers, stockers at grocery stores, students who work in the evening.... Kinda sucks working 8 hours at 8 bucks an hour and then having to pay it all to a cab driver just to get home, or getting written up for NCNS because you were stuck at a bus stop trying to get to work.

If the strike was over poor treatment of the drivers by riders, I could maybe understand the last minute announcement. But it wasn't. It was all about job protection. Sorry, my sympathy went right out the window.

[Flagrum_3]

If the strike was over poor treatment of the drivers by riders, I could maybe understand the last minute announcement. But it wasn't. It was all about job protection. Sorry, my sympathy went right out the window.

The drivers safety was the precise and only reason for the last minute announcement but definitely not the reason for the strike!...understand now?


_3


.

[midnightfxgt]

TTC handled it poorly (yes it could have been worse, but it could have been better). They lost even more public support, and I hope none of them complain if there is any backlash from the general public.

-John

[midnightfxgt]

The drivers safety was the precise and only reason for the last minute announcement but definitely not the reason for the strike!...understand now?


_3


.

The problem was that they began the strike at 12:00 and screwed a lot of people over. Could have waited until 2:30 and been a lot better off. More than likely the same end result would have occured too. Leave the poles open longer, and everyone gets what they need.

A woman I work with, her husband is a driver and was very disappointed with how the union handled themselves.

[Swerny]

The drivers safety was the precise and only reason for the last minute announcement but definitely not the reason for the strike!...understand now?


_3

.


Sorry, but that's another load of bull.

The drivers last week agreed to the new deal.

The maintenance workers bitched that the new deal didn't do enough for them, and the deal was off.

The whole "driver safety" BS excuse was used to garner sympathy from the general public.

Sorry, but you're not fooling anyone.

[Cardinal Fang]

The drivers safety was the precise and only reason for the last minute announcement but definitely not the reason for the strike!...understand now?


_3


.

That is a load of crap the Union would like you to believe. Give the citizen's more credit than that. Somehow the people would lynch them if they returned to their jobs? I guess today we are going to be seeing bus drivers being strung up everywhere.

Yet again the people of Toronto are blamed for the strike. They feel threatened by us so they can't go back to work.

Give me a farking break.....keep eating what they're serving.

[whiteomega]

The maintenance workers bitched that the new deal didn't do enough for them, and the deal was off.

that wasn't it at all. it was a misunderstanding between the union leadership and the union membership, according to the CBC:

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/toronto/story/2008/04/27/ttc-breakdown.html

i was caught downtown during the strike; it was annoying, yes. am i angry with the union? not really. i *do* wish they'd explored alternative solutions though. if they were truly worried about safety of the workers, how about holding off the vote results until after service was delayed? sure, you wouldn't impact as many people that way, but you'd still make your point to the public, and the TTC, that you're serious about the oustanding contract issues. this way, you still make your point, albeit not quite as strongly, but without peeving off your paying customers, many of whom, the CBC says, are unsympathetic: http://www.cbc.ca/canada/toronto/story/2008/04/28/ttc-monday.html


That is a load of crap the Union would like you to believe. Give the citizen's more credit than that. Somehow the people would lynch them if they returned to their jobs? I guess today we are going to he seeing bus drivers being strung up everywhere.

Yet again the people of Toronto are blamed for the strike. They feel threatened by us so they can't go back to work.

Give me a farking break.....keep eating what they're serving.

i think the greater concern was not what would happen when they returned to work, but what would happen if they were working after the contract was rejected.

my understanding is that they were worried more about retalliation against currently working TTC personel when the strike was announced. that said, see my post above about perhaps finding alternate solutions.

i don't think the midnight strike was necessary; i'm pretty sure they could have waited until the end of service to announce it. news of the strike would have made the morning papers anyway.

the thing about labour actions like this is that there's never a good time to strike. you either piss off the ridership, or lose some of the pressure of a strike by waiting until everyone is off the service. then the next day comes around and people still can't use the service, and then the public gets upset that they don't have their normal service, etc, etc.

[midnightfxgt]

They claim it was for safety, yet did they consider the single females who may of had to walk home late at night alone? Probably not...

[Cardinal Fang]

Of course there's no good time for a strike. At the very least give people the opportunity to make alternate arrangements as they originally promised. By leaving people high and dry the way they did they come off as vindictive bunch. This issue of safety of their drivers is a smoke screen. Remember the wild cat walk out during the last contract negotiations? They didn't seem too concerned about the safety of their workers when they waked out illegally and were ordered back to work by the Ministry of Labour.

Safety is used as a pawn.

[whiteomega]

i realize that. i'm not defending their actions. i'm just trying to keep a level head about stuff like this, because IMO, way too many people AREN'T doing that.

[Wild Weasel]

That's a load of BS about being concerned about safety. If that was an issue, they'd have never made the promise in the first place. And if they decided later it was a bad idea, they should have rescinded the promise and let people know that an immediate strike was a possibility.

What they did was lied to the public and then bent them over a barrel and stuck it to them. They should be more concerned now about safety after having screwed over the entire city.

No matter who's doing the job, sitting in a booth selling tickets isn't worth $27 an hour. So what if they're long-time drivers? If they make more as a driver, they should keep driving. There are people who would be overjoyed to make $12 an hour selling tickets. If not for the union convincing them they can hold the city hostage and get paid more, they would be.

Instead, there are people slaving over hot stoves flipping burgers for less than $9 an hour... because that's what their skills are worth. Same goes for those selling tickets. It's a low-skilled job and should be paid accordingly.

Unions have their place, but they've far overstepped their bounds over the years. Of course, those in charge have to justify the dues by constantly fighting for more.

They can't just sit back and say "Whoa... these guys have got it way better than they should... so we've done our job. Let's go get lunch..."

No. They have to fight for more, while taxpayers are burdened with the results.

[RemaerdLacidar]

The drivers safety was the precise and only reason for the last minute announcement but definitely not the reason for the strike!...understand now?


_3


.

If driver safety was the reason for the last minute announcement, couldn't they have just held off till 2:29AM made the announcement then, and had the TTC on strike at 2:30AM ?

[midnightfxgt]

If driver safety was the reason for the last minute announcement, couldn't they have just held off till 2:29AM made the announcement then, and had the TTC on strike at 2:30AM ?

Thats what I am saying. The TTC had every right to stike. The fact is they screwed over a lot of the general public, broke promises, and made things worse than they needed to be.

The agument that "it could have been worse" is crap. Sure it could have been! It could have been a lot better too! I have no sympathy for them at all. It was a stupid move, to try and flex some muscle.

-John (the guy who would be happy with 3% each yr, for 3 years right now)

[whiteomega]

Thats what I am saying. The TTC had every right to stike. The fact is they screwed over a lot of the general public, broke promises, and made things worse than they needed to be.

The agument that "it could have been worse" is crap. Sure it could have been! It could have been a lot better too! I have no sympathy for them at all. It was a stupid move, to try and flex some muscle.

-John (the guy who would be happy with 3% each yr, for 3 years right now)

this is what i wish they had done. the argument against it of course is that it wouldn't have been as effective to strike then as it would have been to strike at midnight. unfortunately, i think the midnight strike backfired on them and very likely cost them the sympathy of a lot of people..

[Kaz]

Heard about this on 102.1 The Edge this morning during their morning show.... its a Wiki entry on Bob Kinnear...its since been edited but the link below shows the original.

I found it humourous even if it is a bit on the crude side...just goes to show you how ticked off people can get.

http://www.joeydevilla.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2008/04/bob_kinnear_wikipedia_entry.gif

[Wild Weasel]

http://www.joeydevilla.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2008/04/bob_kinnear_wikipedia_entry.gif

heh. Awesome. It's like they typed what's in my brain. :chuckle

[iconicrocket]

http://www.joeydevilla.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2008/04/bob_kinnear_wikipedia_entry.gif



Way to peeved off the entire public. lol.

[Flagrum_3]

If driver safety was the reason for the last minute announcement, couldn't they have just held off till 2:29AM made the announcement then, and had the TTC on strike at 2:30AM ?

They could have but then how many people are up at 2:30 am? You'd have people getting up in the morning needing to get to work to find out? then they would complain why didn't they tell us last night? ....You can't please everyone....Like I said before there is no good time to call a strike!

Everyone must understand that the voting was not closed till 10 p.m Friday night, the membership got the call from the union @ 10:25 p.m. of the results.Now again the decision was made by the union committee INLIGHT of last weekends events (i.e drivers being assualted and threatened) inspite of the 48 hr warning been given ...so to protect the safety of the drivers that were still out on the road from any possibility of further assaults,....it was decided to shut down immediately, the announcement was broadcast on the news at 10:45 pm giving anyone 1hr 15 minutes, ample time to get home from just about anywhere....that was the best they could do in the circumstance.Waiting till service close was not a viable option.

If we wanted to 'flex our muscles' ...they could have choosen to strike Sunday night! that would have stranded 1.5 million users for atleast two working days and made for traffic kaos for everyone not just TTC users, everyone!!.Remember we have been in a LEGAL Strike position since April1 and not obligated to give any warning!!...Better yet we could have gone work-to-rule, now work to rule would have kept the service going we would have lost no time or pay, but believe me service would have been at a snails pace and definitely very kaotic for Mondays commute, if not longer ....so people would still complain.

In hindsight its always easy to cut-up decisions and always harder at the spur of the moment.


Also to MS MSP's statement...No one had agreed to anything last weekend except the bargaining committee and to be more precise it wasn't unanimous 7 out of the 14 members did not sign the agreement!! .This little fact was hidden from the public by the media for the most part, it was mentioned on one broadcast...now the agreement must be voted on by the membership before it is ratified and 65% voted it down after reading the fine details and yes that would mean atleast 1/2 the drivers were against it.Unlike alot of things like our great govenment here in Canada Unions are a True democracy where if 50%+1 vote against something, it stands.

Now everyone here can keep bitching and crying about the less than 48 hr strike on a weekend, or you could do something about it.......Commons will be meeting on Tuesday to discuss the plausibility of making the TTC an Essential Service, anyone want the TTC to be 24/7/365 without the chance of any kind of disruption? Than demand your local politician or your Mayor to vote this in.......I'm all for it.


_3


.

[Cardinal Fang]

Council turned downed the motion to ask the Province to declare the TTC and essential service. Gee given the socialist leaning of the Toronto Council how many never saw that decision coming?

[Flagrum_3]

Heard about this on 102.1 The Edge this morning during their morning show.... its a Wiki entry on Bob Kinnear...its since been edited but the link below shows the original.

I found it humourous even if it is a bit on the crude side...just goes to show you how ticked off people can get.

http://www.joeydevilla.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2008/04/bob_kinnear_wikipedia_entry.gif

It never ceases to amaze me how ignorant of the truth people can be!! Whoever wrote this simply does not have a clue about anything!....and has got weird dilutions of what and how being branded an Essential Service effects Bob Kinnear or anyone else at Local 113......total idiot is all I gotta say :loco


_3



.

[Flagrum_3]

Council turned downed the motion to ask the Province to declare the TTC and essential service. Gee given the socialist leaning of the Toronto Council how many never saw that decision coming?

Where did you hear this? I just heard that Councel will be meeting on Tuesday just for that specific reason.But have also heard that unless the Province and the City decide to properly finance Transit, that it will not likely be passed....politicians...so much for them caring...hypocrites!! :bang

Apparently Toronto transit as compared to most larger cities in Canada is substancially underfunded,....I guess thats why we still have 30 year old buses on the streets of this great city:chuckle



_3



.

[Acradian9]

if underfunded then why keep asking for more money and benefits...damm ttc prices keep going up every year

[whiteomega]

7 out of the 14 members did not sign the agreement!!

<snip>

Unlike alot of things like our great govenment here in Canada Unions are a True democracy where if 50%+1 vote against something, it stands.



i wouldn't call 7 out of 14 equal to 50% +1...one wonders, if this was the executive membership result, why was the contract put to a full membership vote? the default position should have been to reject it, IMO.

[Wild Weasel]

The fact is, the TTC employees are already quite generously compensated for their work and should be happy for it.

Instead, they do as other unions do and continually ask for more, in this case at the expense of Toronto taxpayers.

[Flagrum_3]

i wouldn't call 7 out of 14 equal to 50% +1...one wonders, if this was the executive membership result, why was the contract put to a full membership vote? the default position should have been to reject it, IMO.

7 of 14 was the committee vote, which was taken to the full union body...the 50%+1 is what is needed by the full union body for ratification, a 50% +1 is not needed at the committee level....and your question is valid, I wondered also as soon as I had seen so many signatures absent from the agreement as to its reasoning....obviously it meant something was not right from the start to have that situation.


_3


.

[Flagrum_3]

The fact is, the TTC employees are already quite generously compensated for their work and should be happy for it.

Instead, they do as other unions do and continually ask for more, in this case at the expense of Toronto taxpayers.

Generously Compensated, Compared to whom? ...until you've actually worked at the TTC or have done any research, I don't think you have the knowledge or right to make such a strong statement.

Just FYI, this union's employees have been taking concessions for the past 9 years (three contracts), concessions that have saved countless millions to the city and the public and in which the workers obsorbed the losses.If you want to talk expense why don't you look-up what riders pay in other large cities? Vancouver for instance a bus ride = $5 one way and they are not half the size of the TTC...Thanks to our dedicated and 'skilled' workforce we've kept buses and trains running on average 7 years longer than anyother transit system in North America.We are the third largest transit system in NA and the most underfunded by our governments, 80% of our revenue comes from fares and believe it or not, fares that are more than competatively priced compared to all transit systems!

Also an independent audit was sought by the TTC management and our government to compare the wages of drivers/tellers at the TTC to all similar sized transit systems in NA a couple of years ago.....What was the Independant Auditor's findings?? ...TTC employees as compared to all equally sized transit systems in NA were "Substantially Underpayed" even Mississauga transit workers make more than the Toronto transit workers...give that some thought next time you think we're all overpayed at the TTC.


_3


.

[Wild Weasel]

Actually, you're being somewhat less than honest.

To ride the transit in Vancouver is only $2.50. If you pay $5, you're doing the equivilant of starting off on Markham Transit or some other non-TTC entity and then transferring to the TTC.

Of course, starting off outside the city and using public transit to come downtown will cost more than $5 here... and travelling around downtown certainly costs more than $2.50... so I'm not sure where you're going with that.

As for the pay... I'm not talking about drivers since I have no idea what they make or how many people qualified to drive a bus there are wandering around making less.

I'm talking about all the unskilled labourers that are sponging off the backs of taxpayers when there are plenty of people who would happily work for less and do just as good as job.

[iconicrocket]

Also an independent audit was sought by the TTC management and our government to compare the wages of drivers/tellers at the TTC to all similar sized transit systems in NA a couple of years ago.....What was the Independant Auditor's findings?? ...TTC employees as compared to all equally sized transit systems in NA were "Substantially Underpayed" even Mississauga transit workers make more than the Toronto transit workers...give that some thought next time you think we're all overpayed at the TTC.


.


Really, do you have a link to that report? I like to read it for myself.

[Wild Weasel]

Just because other people make more doing the same job as you, doesn't mean that you are underpaid.

The real question is this: Are there people out there that are qualified to do the job and would be willing and happy to do it (legally) at a lower rate? If so, then you are probably being overpaid.

Take a look at what the auto unions are doing these days. They know they are being overcompensated for what they do, and are negotiating new contracts whereby current workers wages are being grandfathered and new union members are being hired at a lower rate.

[midnightfxgt]

There is no use debating the 48hour strike notice... you clearly think it could have been worse. My only point is that it could have been handled much better. Again, I feel bad for the drivers, since they have to deal with the public they screwed over the night before. Like I said, imagine sending a single woman walking home around midnight... what if she was assaulted on the way home? I guess it could have been worse, right?

Imagine how many buses we could buy if the wages werent so high for TTC workers? lol. Like Weasel said, the Auto Unions are starting to smarten up. I think its mostly due to the fact that they have no choice, and are losing money, but they are still starting.

-John
(Still awaiting a nice 3% for 3yrs raise. I must be underpaid)

[midnightfxgt]

even Mississauga transit workers make more than the Toronto transit workers...

$21.34 is the average wage for an transit/equipment operator in the Province.
$26.84 is what a TTC driver with 12month or more experience earns.

That is $11,400 a year above average, and this is considered underpaid?!

Even Mississauga transit workers make more? OK, so the TTC should be far above ALL other comparable services? I mean, you name 1 single city who makes more, but failed to mention the countless others that the TTC makes more than. I dont feel bad for TTC workers in the least, and I know a few of them. Don't forget the great pension that the TTC doles out. A pension is something that is falling by the wayside. I work for a company with more than 25000 employees, and I dont get one.

-John

[Cardinal Fang]

Pay should be commensurate with the skill level you can bring to the workforce. People with very specific skills can command a greater pay because not everyone has those skills. They are in demand. A ticket collector being paid over $20.00 an hour for UNSKILLED labour is obscene. Those jobs should be contracted out as they are a burden on taxpayers. You would never have this private sector. There is no tolerance for that level of waste. What as a society are we saying when a person sitting there 8 hours a day giving out tickets is entitled to be paid more than a graduate student working for a professional engineers office, a teacher or pick anyone one of the number of licensed professions in Ontario.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. Unions pander to the lowest common denominator. It disgusts me and I have no sympathy for them.

[Wild Weasel]

I've said it before and I'll say it again. Unions pander to the lowest common denominator. It disgusts me and I have no sympathy for them.

That's the key here.

This is not specific to the public sector. This has to do with unions in general, as there are auto workers who do nothing more than put a few bolts in place all day making huge amounts of money.

Unions were meant to protect workers and ensure that they're treated fairly. In this respect, I commend them and accept their value.

The problem is that in this day and age, they've become a method by which groups of workers are able to bully their demands on a company beyond that which would be considered reasonable.

[ShortBus]

the ttc saves money by having and keeping 50 year old buses, trains, and street cars running. but they also save you money by not fixing the subay stations.

and instead of buying more efficient buses, trains, subway trains they have to spend it on paying mechanics to keep on fixing those 50 year old vehicles. you'd think that the 3% + inflation adjustment could be better spent to improve the infrastructure of the ttc instead of having fare hikes while having nothing to show for it besides drivers and collectors haing fatter wallets.

[midnightfxgt]

A ticket collector being paid over $20.00 an hour for UNSKILLED labour is obscene. Those jobs should be contracted out as they are a burden on taxpayers.

The same people who view this as acceptable are the ones who complain about funding. Money is being pissed away at an alarming rate. Sure we dont know what a day in the life of a ticket collector is, but you will never convince me that there is not someone out there who would do the job for 1/2 the price, and be content doing so. I have worked in warehouses where some guys are struggling to get $14/hour for very physically demanding work... I bet they would love double the money, and sit in the booth all day!

[midnightfxgt]

...there are auto workers who do nothing more than put a few bolts in place all day making huge amounts of money.


I agree they should make good money. I know a lot of auto workers and the job is quite physically demanding, and boring. You need to pay well to get people to stay. Also, these people are building vehicles, so you want them somewhat skilled. That being said, they are overpaid for the most part too. Although, not nearly as badly as the ticket collectors.

FYI - My aunt and uncle are both enjoying their 1yr layoff from GM while getting something like 85% of their pay! LOL.... Unions, in theory, are great. Too bad most get money hungry, and feel the need to use a strike as a bully tactic to extort every dollar, rather than legit means, and fighting for whats fair.

-John

[Wild Weasel]

I have worked in warehouses where some guys are struggling to get $14/hour for very physically demanding work... I bet they would love double the money, and sit in the booth all day!

Yep. Been there, done that. Made less than $14 an hour.

People in these unions start to think that they're entitled to what they're getting and that they deserve more if their union can get them more.

They don't realize that they're lucky as hell to have those jobs and should be thankful to the company for giving them far more than they deserve based on their limited skills.

I realize that everyone wants more than what they have, but people should take a good hard look at what they're doing to earn it and get themselves a little perspective on things.

[Cardinal Fang]

the ttc saves money by having and keeping 50 year old buses, trains, and street cars running. but they also save you money by not fixing the subay stations.

and instead of buying more efficient buses, trains, subway trains they have to spend it on paying mechanics to keep on fixing those 50 year old vehicles. you'd think that the 3% + inflation adjustment could be better spent to improve the infrastructure of the ttc instead of having fare hikes while having nothing to show for it besides drivers and collectors haing fatter wallets.

In fairness to the TTC they are underfunded by the Province. Every other transit authority in North America of comparable size is funded to a higher extent by the State authorities. Successive provincial governments have dropped the ball on this. Come election time they are here saying what they will do. When they leave nothing changes.

[ShortBus]

In fairness to the TTC they are underfunded by the Province. Every other transit authority in North America of comparable size is funded to a higher extent by the State authorities. Successive provincial governments have dropped the ball on this. Come election time they are here saying what they will do. When they leave nothing changes.

i'm not saying they aren't but what funding they do get (either from the gov't or through fare hikes) a large protion (3% at ~$25/hour = $3 million/year) goes to pay increases, that money could be better used to fix up a station(s) or buy new vehicles.

[Cardinal Fang]

That maybe true but keep in mind that that TTC is short changed by the province to the tune of approx over 100 million per year. Three million is a drop in the bucket and wouldn't amount to anything substantial when it came to the repairs of some of these stations.

But your point is well taken. The savings could be spent elsewhere.

[Flagrum_3]

Really, do you have a link to that report? I like to read it for myself.

What would make you think a Independent Internal report would be on the internet? :loco ...Ask any driver or teller at the TTC if you don't take my word for it.Plus this little fact has been mentioned on several TV interviews.


_3


.

[whiteomega]

i would think an independant report supporting the position of ATU Local 113 would be publically available for the express purpose of garnering public sympathy. the fact that it isn't shows either oversight or unwillingness to make it public. the former you could get away with, but the latter implies something else.

[Cardinal Fang]

Anecdotal evidence is great isn't it? Can't back it or up or refute it.

[Flagrum_3]

You know I've heard this argument for years about unions being this, unions being that, union workers have it so good, unions make way too much money, people out there would/should work for less....blah, blah, blah....

Okay, lets all write our governments and get them to pass a law to outlaw unions then!! ...and lets see what happens to alot of you saying these things, lets see what happens to your pay, your benefits, your holidays etc; etc; I can guarantee that alot of people here are making a hell of alot more then they deserve....and why becuase companies have been 'forced' over the decades to raise the standards up for everyone because of "Unions efforts, fights and yes suffering"....Don't kid yourselfs, eliminate unions and we'd be back to the turn of the century, ....kids working 14 hrs a day for pennys....and don't think for a second that that can't happen again! Let's all revert to China's standard where it pertains to wages, safety, quality of life for workers, then maybe you guys will be happy? .....and I'm also sure that there is no one here that thier position could not be taken by someone else willing to work for less.....in fact I'm 100% on it.

Don't get me wrong, sure there may be some union positions that are getting paid highly for non-skilled positions, but is it also better to expect people to work for less whilst everything around them goes up including coporations profits...I'm sorry but the mind-set here is alarming to me....So on that note all you union bashers why not go into work tomorrow and say to your boss "You know I think your overpaying me, so why don't you drop my wages in half and while your at it eliminate my holidays, I don't need any time off! and forget the overtime pay I'll work 70 hours a week if you like!"



_3


.


Anecdotal evidence is great isn't it? Can't back it or up or refute it.

Are you guys not reading my posts or just reading what you want? As I said that fact "has been reported on several TV interviews", including one with Bob Kinnear last weekend, which I believe makes that public knowledge!....and I don't know maybe I'm weird but I'm not in the habit of recording everything I see or hear.:loco


_3


.

[Cardinal Fang]

You know I've heard this argument for years about unions being this, unions being that, union workers have it so good, unions make way too much money, people out there would/should work for less....blah, blah, blah....



Nice. So you expect some of us to take your arguments seriously when you dismiss ours with contempt. :loco

By the way. When I referred to anecdotal evidence I mean it. I'm sorry that I can't take your word for it but with all due respect, I think your towing the "party line" on this one Flagrum. Show me the report. You put forth the statement and all I ask is that you back it up. I doubt you'd take my word for it if I put forth a statement saying that * assaults on TTC drivers are no higher than the general population so extend to me the same courtesy.

* = I heard some guy say that he heard it from his cousin who was watching some show on T.V. so it must be true. :pop

[Flagrum_3]

What the heck triple post!

My final note to all this and all this bickering behind us now (hopefully), TTC is back up, people are on their marry way, contract is being arbitrated! ...but guess what, commons will probably not pass a bill making TTC essential, in three years this contract will be over and it will all start over again.Fares will probably still keep going up every six months, why? because our governments will not increase funding to the proper levels needed to even maintain the system...(we still need 600 buses @ $800k approx a piece, stations are crumbling...even more $$millions, we need hundreds of new employees...more money) ....Point is...if people want a Transit system that works, is up to the standards of this great city, and which will never go off again due to a strike, then we must 'ALL' demand our governments properly fund our transit and deem it an essential service......because it is, isn't it?


_3


.

[Cardinal Fang]

The left leaning council would never ask the government to declare the TTC and essential service. That would be slapping the unions that get them elected. With everything else I couldn't have said it better. We get the transit we deserve.

[Swerny]

we need hundreds of new employees...more money)

More employess needed eh? Why mnot chop the dead wood that's already working for the TTC?

Here's a thought, start paying the TTC employees what they actually deserve to make rather than overpaying them, and use the savings to hire more staff.

Kind of a 2 for one deal.

Or better yet, fire all the disgruntled, bitter employees and hire some go-getters who actually want to do the job for that new lower wage.

Problem solved.

[Flagrum_3]

Nice. So you expect some of us to take your arguments seriously when you dismiss ours with contempt. :loco

By the way. When I referred to anecdotal evidence I mean it. I'm sorry that I can't take your word for it but with all due respect, I think your towing the "party line" on this one Flagrum. Show me the report. You put forth the statement and all I ask is that you back it up. I doubt you'd take my word for it if I put forth a statement saying that * assaults on TTC drivers are no higher than the general population so extend to me the same courtesy.

* = I heard some guy say that he heard it from his cousin who was watching some show on T.V. so it must be true. :pop

Contempt I don't think so! And like I said and I'll repeat and add that everything I've stated on this board is public knowledge and has been
reported at one time or another by media and members of government etc; for all to view.Alot of statements made by others here come from the same place I would imagine as no one here would have direct insider info.

I have no reason to make-up any of my points, but like I said I'm not in the habit of taping everything I hear or see, Do you? ...and by the way I'm not the only one here making alot of statements which are not being backed up!
This is a discussion not a court case! ....believe what you like, everyone has their point of view and everyone has thier own interpretations of things around them.


Like I mentioned before if you don't believe my point about the independent audit, just go ask any employee at the TTC, everyone is aware of it and will tell you the same.If I could get a hard copy of the results I would, it is posted on many information boards at TTC garages behind locked glass, so I am unable to do so.


_3


.

[Cardinal Fang]

Contempt I don't think so! And like I said and I'll repeat and add that everything I've stated on this board is public knowledge and has been
reported at one time or another by media and members of government etc; for all to view.

Yes but....



..... wait till you understand the details and please don't go by just politician's statements or bad media, before making any further comments.



I'm just going by what you told me to do. I don't want to be mislead by politicians and the media. :chuckle

[Flagrum_3]

More employess needed eh? Why mnot chop the dead wood that's already working for the TTC?

Here's a thought, start paying the TTC employees what they actually deserve to make rather than overpaying them, and use the savings to hire more staff.

Kind of a 2 for one deal.

Or better yet, fire all the disgruntled, bitter employees and hire some go-getters who actually want to do the job for that new lower wage.

Problem solved.

Oh that's a real adult view at everything! If you believe we are getting it so good, why don't you apply for a job? eh its great you do nothing all day, and rake in the money! :)

but seriously,

The TTC is understaffed as it is at the moment!!, due to retirements (present and near future)for one, but also because expansion of service routes to meet demand.This city is growing and the demand is growing for more buses more trains in service, more wheel-trans, more subway lines etc; ...this all means more drivers, usually 4 per route (remember we run 24/7).More buses and trains require more essential service personnel, the expansion of subway routes will require numerous amonts of new personnel.

Remember we're not manufacturing wickets at the TTC we are providing a service to 1.5 million + users a day there's alot more to it then you then you would imagine.


_3



.

[Wild Weasel]

Don't get me wrong, sure there may be some union positions that are getting paid highly for non-skilled positions, but is it also better to expect people to work for less whilst everything around them goes up including coporations profits...I'm sorry but the mind-set here is alarming to me....So on that note all you union bashers why not go into work tomorrow and say to your boss "You know I think your overpaying me, so why don't you drop my wages in half and while your at it eliminate my holidays, I don't need any time off! and forget the overtime pay I'll work 70 hours a week if you like!"


I can already see how this discussion would go.

"Hey boss... think you can find someone to do my job as well as I do for half or even 2/3rds the pay?"

"Nope, I don't think I can."

"Right then. Let's get some work done!"

You talk about getting rid of unions and things being like China here. Firstly, things would never be like that because we have minimum wage laws and other laws to protect our citizens.

Secondly, nobody is suggesting that unions be done away with. I simply believe they should understand their purpose and not overstep their bounds. They should know when their people are better off than they should be and they should be happy with that.

I keep saying it... if there are people who will do as good or better a job for far less money, then the position is overpayed.

You talk about corporations just making more and more money. Look at the automakers. The unions have been a huge contributer to running them into the ground.

If the automakers were making money hand over fist, then the unions could point to that as an argument for better compensation. Everyone should get their fair share.

But you're in a public sector union. There is no profits. All your union does it take more and more from the pockets of me and all the other taxpayers.

[Flagrum_3]

Yes but....



I'm just going by what you told me to do. I don't want to be mislead by politicians and the media. :chuckle

Typical, taking things out of context!! Public knowledge was the point nothing else in my last statement.So from now on I guess I can ask you and everyone else to back and show direct proof of all their statements.
You question the validity of my statement on the audit's report, I tell you where to go check it and your reaction is to try to insult my intelligence?

That I believe is the reaction of a desperate person with no intelligent return.


_3


.


I can already see how this discussion would go.

"Hey boss... think you can find someone to do my job as well as I do for half or even 2/3rds the pay?"

"Nope, I don't think I can."

"Right then. Let's get some work done!"

You talk about getting rid of unions and things being like China here. Firstly, things would never be like that because we have minimum wage laws and other laws to protect our citizens.

Secondly, nobody is suggesting that unions be done away with. I simply believe they should understand their purpose and not overstep their bounds. They should know when their people are better off than they should be and they should be happy with that.

I keep saying it... if there are people who will do as good or better a job for far less money, then the position is overpayed.

You talk about corporations just making more and more money. Look at the automakers. The unions have been a huge contributer to running them into the ground.

If the automakers were making money hand over fist, then the unions could point to that as an argument for better compensation. Everyone should get their fair share.

But you're in a public sector union. There is no profits. All your union does it take more and more from the pockets of me and all the other taxpayers.

I'm not arguing the point, but I could say every position held by anyone on this board including yours could be classified as overpayed and definitely there are people just waiting in the wings to take it from you for less money.

Your whole statement on automakers woes, I think requires a whole different discussion, there is alot more to the NA automakers demise then just union workers wages....that would be simplifying the reasons of the problem.

The TTC is only partially funded by tax payers money, 30% I believe.The rest comes from fares and advertising (profits as you may)....thats operating costs I'm talking about.
But yes money for new buses, trains, contruction etc; is funded by the tax payers mostly.But then it is a Public transit system.


_3


.

[Cardinal Fang]

Typical, taking things out of context!!

Relax Flagrum. In case you didn't notice I put a smile beside the post. Take it for what it was meant to be. A joke.



Public knowledge was the point nothing else in my last statement.

Public knowledge according to you. I'm being truthful and honest to you when I say I never heard of that report. My reason for asking you about it is to become educated by it. Nothing more. If you questioned my intentions in asking you for proof that's your problem not mine.



So from now on I guess I can ask you and everyone else to back and show direct proof of all their statements.

If I or anyone else makes a statement about fact that you have doubts about there is no harm in asking for proof. I would have no problem giving that to you when the time comes either. I also wouldn't take offense to it if I was asked because I realize that not everyone reads the same material I do.



You question the validity of my statement on the audit's report, I tell you where to go check it and your reaction is to try to insult my intelligence?

Re read my post. I didn't weigh in either way to what you said about the report other than to reiterate to you that anecdotal evidence cannot be proven or discounted. That was not an insult to your intelligence. If anything your reading comprehension is lacking.



That I believe is the reaction of a desperate person with no intelligent return.

You can believe what you like. It's obvious to most that you've made up your mind one way or another. You've prejudged me and others simply because we disagree with your position. What are we to make of your behavior then?

Grow up.

[chinsterr]

I got a job at the TTC this summer as an engineering coop student, and even though I have not started my first day of work yet...I find some of the things you guys are saying offensive.

Now here is my question, how the f*ck can you guys be posting on TM3 at work? Stop wasting your employers money and do your god damn jobs. All of you posting during work hours are no better than the employees at the collection booths.... at least you guys have the internet to surf.

[Cardinal Fang]

Good point. From now on those at work will no longer be allowed to post here. It's for their own good. Lets see how long this board lasts now or the internet for that matter.

[Wild Weasel]

I got a job at the TTC this summer as an engineering coop student, and even though I have not started my first day of work yet...I find some of the things you guys are saying offensive.

Now here is my question, how the f*ck can you guys be posting on TM3 at work? Stop wasting your employers money and do your god damn jobs. All of you posting during work hours are no better than the employees at the collection booths.... at least you guys have the internet to surf.

Interesting point you bring up. You seem to feel that my employers money is being wasted and you're using that as some sort of argument.

Of course, my employers money isn't your money, and through the processes of a free market and competition, I've earned my position and some of the privileges that come with it.

On the flip side... the TTC's money IS my money, and that of every other taxpayer.

Any monies coming in from fares or advertising is simply helping to subsidize it so I don't have to pay quite as much in taxes.

It's in MY best interest to have it run as efficiently as possible so that my money is being well spent and I can be happy about it and not feel as though my pockets are simply being pilferred.

What exactly is it that's being said that you find offensive? If you're an engineering student as you say, then you should be able to earn your keep and will likely develop the same disdain for this sort of tax dollar wastage once you start earning a decent living and paying your share of taxes.

Are you defending the over-paying of unskilled workers? Is that offensive to you? Do enlighten us rather than just spouting off nonsense.

[little_wheelz]

I got a job at the TTC this summer as an engineering coop student

Just curious as an Eng are you part of the union? I would assume that you are not if it is like any other company with a union ..... and if you are not in the union, how do you like getting paid less then a ticket collector?

And this is coming from a PEng who didn't make 100K last year working ~ 60 hr weeks.

[Kaz]

Now here is my question, how the f*ck can you guys be posting on TM3 at work? Stop wasting your employers money and do your god damn jobs.

Not sure what this has to do with anything...but its awfully presumptuous of you to say that by surfing\posting on the internet during work is wasting our respective employers money. For instance I work for the airport and provide system support (among other things) for numerous systems some of them extremely safety sensitive. If there is nothing going wrong it is considered a good thing....and I will often surf the internet during down time.

I don't see that as wasting my employers money in any way....I consider it as if they are paying me as a sort of insurance policy to ensure that operations run smoothly and planes don't crash in the mean time.

And BTW I'm in a union as well but in my case I think it does a lot more harm then good and typically just gives a lot of the employees (with an extremely broad range of skilled and unskilled labour segments) the opportunity to bitch and moan and show absolutely no initiative whatsoever to better improve the company they work for...when without the union these are the same people would be the first ones to be let go...but they have the union to protect them. Instead of being grateful for the job and working to maintain it like a lot of people outside a unions continually have to do a lot of unionized workers think the mere fact they are in a union entitles them to be lazy workers (and I think unions typically endorse this ...since much of their promotions and other entitlements are based merely on seniority). Please note though that this is just my personal experience.

[Kaz]

Just curious as an Eng are you part of the union? I would assume that you are not if it is like any other company with a union .....


Our engineers are in our union...not TTC obviously....just saying that there are some unionized Engineers out there in some companies....but I'm not saying they're happy about it.

[chinsterr]

Good point. From now on those at work will no longer be allowed to post here. It's for their own good. Lets see how long this board lasts now or the internet for that matter.

This board is not a way of life, some people can actually survive without having to look at it every waking minute. If I were you boss, your ass would be out the door if I caught you on tm3/surfing/msn/etc for a good chunk of every day. This is not directed at you, but rather, the comment you made.


Just curious as an Eng are you part of the union? I would assume that you are not if it is like any other company with a union ..... and if you are not in the union, how do you like getting paid less then a ticket collector?

And this is coming from a PEng who didn't make 100K last year working ~ 60 hr weeks.

Actually , I get paid as much as a collector .. but I'm only 21 and its a 4month placement. If I choose to work 70hrs/week, then yes, I CAN make 100K for the year or 33K in 4 months.


Not sure what this has to do with anything...but its awfully presumptuous of you to say that by surfing\posting on the internet during work is wasting our respective employers money. For instance I work for the airport and provide system support (among other things) for numerous systems some of them extremely safety sensitive. If there is nothing going wrong it is considered a good thing....and I will often surf the internet during down time.

I don't see that as wasting my employers money in any way....I consider it as if they are paying me as a sort of insurance policy to ensure that operations run smoothly and planes don't crash in the mean time.


If you work for GTAA then I feel sorry for you.

[iconicrocket]

I love some of the comments that posted on blog.to. sorta mirror what happening in this thread.

http://www.blogto.com/city/2008/03/ttc_union_the_propaganda_way/

And I believe the report Flagrum_3 is talking about is on there - it's the Marilyn Churley report on the Transit System. But the link is no longer available. I wonder why? :)

Gotta love some of the comments there like:


The situation is so bad, that I actually take notice when service is good. Shouldn't it be the other way around? But we're used to bad service so when we have a good experience it's like "wow, that was good". - Maria


ROFLMAO

The blogger's are referring to the ATU union advertisment/informercial/campaign as propaganda. lol. And is it a coincident that this campaign was started before the strike? Brainwash the general public before they pilfered some more money from the trough. The link to the Marilyn Churley Report seems to be broken, so can't verify if it's actually independent, but I can probably make an educated guess that it's not.

[little_wheelz]

Actually , I get paid as much as a collector .. but I'm only 21 and its a 4month placement. If I choose to work 70hrs/week, then yes, I CAN make 100K for the year or 33K in 4 months.

I'm going to assume that you are in a Union, as you are paid OT. It has just been my experience that Engineers (and all Management for that matter) are not paid OT, even though it is worked. Congrats on the summer job!

[Wild Weasel]

This board is not a way of life, some people can actually survive without having to look at it every waking minute. If I were you boss, your ass would be out the door if I caught you on tm3/surfing/msn/etc for a good chunk of every day. This is not directed at you, but rather, the comment you made.


Ah... how young and naive!

A good chunk of every day? I dunno about others, but it only takes me a couple minutes to sift through the new posts here every couple hours or so and throw in my 2 cents. People spend more time than that sitting on the can.

Yours is the point of view of someone who needs constant supervision and micromanagement to get anything done. If you were a boss and had respect for your employees, then you'd be on top of things to ensure that all the work was getting done and encourage better morale in the workplace to promote productivity. You wouldn't give a rats ass about what Internet sites they were looking at so long as they didn't violate any code of conduct and weren't interfering with productivity.

The general mentality around here is that we don't necessarily work for our managers. Here, our manager works for us, ensuring we have everything we need to get our jobs done and that things run smoothly. As a team, we accomplish all sorts of good stuff.

But your narrow view of the world doesn't include this sort of scenario.

I also find it curious that while we are enjoying a lively debate about the TTC union and their affects on the city, you're jumping in with personal attacks based on no knowledge whatsoever of what any of us actually do for a living.

You might need some anger management classes or something.

[chinsterr]

You might need some anger management classes or something.

lol, I am more amused than anything else. But you did raise some good points about teamwork and such. I haven't work much in my life, so I yes, I guess I am young and naive. Thanks for pointing that one out.

I initially made a general comment about this forum and you took it as a personal attack, but then again, I guess the same could be said about me. Could it be that you are one of those people that should be working but instead are here posting? :chuckle and that's why you took it to heart? Whatever your reason, I hope that YOU chillax. Seems like you are furiously typing an essay to my 1-2 liner responses.

I am eagerly looking forward to your next lengthy response,

Enjoy the rest of your day.
*btw: Baskin Robin's has ice cream scoops for 31cents today, maybe that'll take the edge off :)

[Cardinal Fang]

If I were you boss, your ass would be out the door if I caught you on tm3/surfing/msn/etc for a good chunk of every day. This is not directed at you, but rather, the comment you made.


Fear not chinsterr. I'm pretty sure you'd never be able to rise to the position of being my boss so you don't have to worry about that.

[chinsterr]

Fear not chinsterr. I'm pretty sure you'd never be able to rise to the position of being my boss so you don't have to worry about that.

hahaha, where do you work? :chuckle

[Cardinal Fang]

The Vatican.

Shouldn't you be at class or at work right now. I'm sure you can find more productive ways of using your time then spending here awaiting people's responses to your post. After all, this board isn't a way of life you know. :chuckle

[chinsterr]

The Vatican.

Shouldn't you be at class or at work right now. I'm sure you can find more productive ways of using your time then spending here awaiting people's responses to your post. After all, this board isn't a way of life you know. :chuckle

Actually I just finished my exams and I am waiting for my first day of work , which is next week. I am sitting around here killing time because none of my friends are awake yet, and I had to walk the dog @ 8am.

But they are awake now. Time for some cheap ice cream.

Don't work too hard CF :chuckle

Peace out

[Fobio]

Actually I just finished my exams and I am waiting for my first day of work , which is next week. I am sitting around here killing time because none of my friends are awake yet, and I had to walk the dog @ 8am.

But they are awake now. Time for some cheap ice cream.

Don't work too hard CF :chuckle

Peace out

Gawd, what a great life you have...21 and driving a Mazda 3 telling the rest of us to get back to work...hope your tenure at the TTC will enlighten you some. Unless, you know, they go on strike on your first day to work while your Mazda is getting a major install done since, you know, you make all that money...

And since all your friends have time to kill, they wouldn't mind driving you to work, while a single mother of 4 has to explain to her boss why she can't come in...AGAIN, cuz now she has to WALK her 2-yr old to the hospital for emergency medical services...

Enjoy that ice cream while I save the world from inflation and interest rate risks...

[little_wheelz]

Looks like a bit of a refund........

http://www.citynews.ca/news/news_22194.aspx



But they are awake now. Time for some cheap ice cream.

I've been told that the "cheap" ice cream is only in the US. I really hope you don't take the TTC to B&R and waste the $2.75!

[Swerny]

Looks like a bit of a refund........

http://www.citynews.ca/news/news_22194.aspx



yeah, and there will be a fare hike next week to make that money back!

[Wild Weasel]

Sadly, this whole discussion has gone down the tubes and become a series of jabs at one another.

chinsterr, do enlighten us as to what offended you in the first place. Which arguments did you have a problem with? Which do you disagree with and why?

You'll find that while your union-brother Flagrum wasn't necessarily winning the debate here, at least he was trying to give another side to the arguments.

[Flagrum_3]

Relax Flagrum. In case you didn't notice I put a smile beside the post. Take it for what it was meant to be. A joke.



Public knowledge according to you. I'm being truthful and honest to you when I say I never heard of that report. My reason for asking you about it is to become educated by it. Nothing more. If you questioned my intentions in asking you for proof that's your problem not mine.



If I or anyone else makes a statement about fact that you have doubts about there is no harm in asking for proof. I would have no problem giving that to you when the time comes either. I also wouldn't take offense to it if I was asked because I realize that not everyone reads the same material I do.



Re read my post. I didn't weigh in either way to what you said about the report other than to reiterate to you that anecdotal evidence cannot be proven or discounted. That was not an insult to your intelligence. If anything your reading comprehension is lacking.



You can believe what you like. It's obvious to most that you've made up your mind one way or another. You've prejudged me and others simply because we disagree with your position. What are we to make of your behavior then?

Grow up.


I guess I owe you an apoligy, I missed some stuff in your post :blush...blame it on being overtired, its been hell at work the last couple of days winding back up from the strike! ...We even had a couple of employees hit by buses!! ...everyone seems to be in la-la land.

Anyways back to the discussion, latest news if no one managed to view it on TV is that the motion to discuss TTC as an essential service as been deemed null and void! ....reason being they've had a motion already active for over a year! ....since the Wildcat strike!! ...so anyways some politicians are getting the heat as to why they've sat on their hands for so long. :chuckle

I've done a little bit of research on how deeming TTC an 'Essential Service' would impact the unions role,(anyone chime in with any info please or correct me if I'm wrong on anything), so....from what I could gather, basically the only thing that would change is our right to strike! otherwise most all aspects stay the same, we'd still have arbitration, we'd still be able to use the Work-to-Rule and most protections in place could/would stay in place!...So why would politicians be reluctant to make the TTC an ES? I think it comes down to money, and alot of it...An arbitrator would be used to set an ES baseline, meaning all issues would be covered from wages to pension package...Now don't quote me on this but that would mean the arbitrator would have to take into account the packages already in existance by other ES members; police, firefighters etc; ...and we all know they have pretty lucritive packages...so that could mean an incredibly high cost to the city and province and the reason some politicians are opposed to the motion.

I personnaly believe the TTC should be deemed an Essential Service not for the reasons of a better package but because the impact of a strike to the city is enormous! ...its not just the inconvenience to riders who depend on the system (although a major part), but also the short and long term economical effect it brings....

I guess it comes down to the interpretation of what deems an entity an 'essential service' and all the legal mumbo-jumbo that goes with it! thats causing all the problems.


_3


.

[Wild Weasel]

I don't get why it should cost the city more.

Every time they strike, the government legislates them back to work and assigns an arbitrator, right?

So if they're deemed an essential service, won't things be exactly the same but without the service disruption?

[tfordham]

I just read this on citynews.ca and CUPE's thoughts on ES and the TTC. Is this for real?

"The delay puts off at least temporarily a threat by CUPE leader Sid Ryan to stage a labour revolt if the city and the province remove the Amalgamated Transit Union's right to strike. "If any governments, whether municipal or provincial, thinks that they can just arbitrarily take that away without a fight from the labour movement, they're going to be dreaming in technicolour," he warns."

[Cardinal Fang]

.An arbitrator would be used to set an ES baseline, meaning all issues would be covered from wages to pension package...Now don't quote me on this but that would mean the arbitrator would have to take into account the packages already in existance by other ES members; police, firefighters etc; ...and we all know they have pretty lucritive packages...so that could mean an incredibly high cost to the city and province and the reason some politicians are opposed to the motion.



This is absolutely correct and echoed in this article from the National Post:

http://network.nationalpost.com/np/blogs/fullcomment/archive/2008/04/27/john-turley-ewart-toronto-s-ttc-strike-and-the-better-way-for-the-future.aspx

"Taxpayers have little reason to be optimistic an arbitrator will generate a better deal for the city than the one already offered. When Toronto’s largest union went on strike in the summer of 2002, the city was trying to roll back concessions made in 1999 that promised a job for life to city staff who had more than 10 years on the job — a majority of the work force. That provision made it impossible to save money by contracting out services and laying off high-priced union workers. Soon after the province sent workers back to the job and appointed an arbitrator, the arbitrator called a press conference, scolded Toronto officials for not “buying into improved [labour] relations,” and by November had awarded the union almost everything it was demanding."

On average cases of binding arbitration end up costing the Cities more.

[iconicrocket]

Wow, so either way, the general taxpayer get screwed!?!

[S.F.W.]

anyhow..I think this thread is beaten to death.