Daily Driving Downshift or Not???

[CM3]

Hey i'm somewhat new to manual transmissions and i've been wondering recently. Is it better to downshift or go straight to neutral when stopping? I've heard it is better to downshift but my logic says that putting it straight into neutral relieves stress on the clutch etc and the only wear and tear would be on the brakes? If anyone can give me some insight into this please enlighten me.

THANKS:chuckle

[mleblond]

I downshift because it's automatic for me but all I can say it's cheaper to replace brakes than a clutch. Remember tho if you downshift to control your rev....Iusually tap the gas before downshifting :)

[Thunder 3]

I'm new to manual too...personally I've been shifting into neutral whenever I'm coming to a stop. Sometimes I'll downshift but depends on the situation and my mood I guess. I figure I'd rather wear my brakes down than my clutch.

[Wild Weasel]

You're asking the wrong question.

You should never just shift to neutral. You have the option of downshifting, or just leaving it in gear until you're down near idle RPM's and then putting in the clutch. Just going to neutral and using the brakes when you want to slow down is not an option.

Do a search for some extensive discussion on the topic here.

[nicker]

I always downshift. Never had issues with my clutch etc. I mean I don't ram it into the lower gear. I let it slide into the gear smouthly.

[tweak_s]

down shift (obviously rev match before doing so).

If you're lazy.. leave the car in gear. Don't neutral + stop as WW mentioned. Thats not safe.

[Fuman]

If you're lazy.. leave the car in gear. Don't neutral + stop as WW mentioned. Thats not safe.
+1
Not safe = incase something happens and you need to use the throttle.

[dentinger]

i always downshift, but only becuase it sounds cool, cuz i have a loud exhaust.
usually i'll downshift into 3rd, then 2nd, then neutral/clutch it to a stop.

[mogul_pro]

Always be in gear! Like people said you might need to speed up to avoid accident.

Down shift, but keep in mind the RPM your going to end up in with the new gear, you should not rev to high, but down shifting can help slow your car down properly, save pad life, and won't hurt your clutch.

[Speedy2008]

I agree with WW + Fuman. Always stay in gear until revs hit approx. 1000rpm or slightly less. Downshifting isn't necessary b/c the car slows itself down while in gear. For example, when approaching a stop light, I simply take my foot off the throttle and coast (while in gear) to the stop light. Sometimes I don't even need to use the brakes at all. Most of the time I only have to feather the brakes then depress the clutch right before coming to a complete stop. This applies to city driving where I don't normally drive faster than 40km/hr. Also have to mind the cars behind you b/c you don't want people honking like crazy.

[tweak_s]

I agree with WW + Fuman. Always stay in gear until revs hit approx. 1000rpm or slightly less. Downshifting isn't necessary b/c the car slows itself down while in gear. For example, when approaching a stop light, I simply take my foot off the throttle and coast (while in gear) to the stop light. Sometimes I don't even need to use the brakes at all. Most of the time I only have to feather the brakes then depress the clutch right before coming to a complete stop. This applies to city driving where I don't normally drive faster than 40km/hr. Also have to mind the cars behind you b/c you don't want people honking like crazy.

Tis true.

the only reason i would downshift sometimes is because... if I was in 5th gear or something (say highway 7 for example). i don't want to coast in NEUTRAL too much. i don't remember exactly how many km/h it would be but maybe at like 20-25km/h my car would start boggin down on 5th gear as I am coasting in gear to stop. Hence those are the times I downshift to ensure i can still coast in gear.

[2007mazda3boy]

Well I drive 140km a day I use a lot of Downshift. Stay that way your brake pad will last longer.Other point when I try to make a turn I always downshift cuz after the turn u can speed up much ez.
the most importan thing is always stay in the gear that way u save a lot of gas.

[Speedy2008]

Oh yeah Tweak_s, I guess it also depends on the scenario. For example, if you're if 4th or 5th while slowing down towards a red light but then it changes back to green, then obviously it would be appropriate to downshift into 2nd or 3rd depending on your approach speed if you want to continue moving forward without bogging down the engine.

[theurgy]

I downshift all the time and simple press the gas a bit to match the revs just before letting off the clutch after a downshift.
But i never leave it in Neutral and coast to a light.
If done right you're not really wearing down your clutch and you get less brake dust in the end.

[Thunder 3]

Why would you suddenly need to accelerate if you are coming up to a stop sign? Couldn't you just pop it into gear from neutral if you needed to? Personally I prefer just shifting into neutral...i hate holding my foot on the clutch unless i'm shifting.

[theurgy]

Holding in the clutch is not bad.. it's holding in between clutching and gasing that's bad.
Having your foot on the clutch just disengages the wheels from the engine (in laymens terms..).
The point of always being in gear is if for any reason, in a split second decision you need to press the gas and get out of a situation.
As much as you need brakes to avoid accidents... being in gear and being ready to gas out is just as important.

[CM3]

Thanks guys, this has been a big help...now all i need to do is save up for an exhaust system so when i downshift it sounds cool LOL

[Speedy2008]

I recommend www.shifters.ca to anyone interested in learning the basics or even advanced manual shift training. I registered in Dec. '07 as an absolute beginner. It's worth the money b/c they specialize in standard transmission driving on city roads & on the racetrack. YouTube & random internet articles can only take you so far. My instructor's name was Bernard & he was excellent.

[sp3GT]

Before I got my exhaust I didn't downshift that much, it would be just coast in gear then neutral. But after I got my exhaust I downshift a lot!

I remember someone telling me you might use a little more gas with downshifting.

[Wild Weasel]

Why would you suddenly need to accelerate if you are coming up to a stop sign? Couldn't you just pop it into gear from neutral if you needed to? Personally I prefer just shifting into neutral...i hate holding my foot on the clutch unless i'm shifting.

Hate to sound blunt, bro, but you're doing it wrong, or I'm misunderstanding what you're saying.

Nobody is telling you to hold the clutch in. If you want to put it in neutral once you're nearly stopped, that's entirely up to you. I think there's arguments for and against that, but for the most part it doesn't much matter.

If you're coming toward a red light doing 70 though, and then shift to neutral and use the brake to slow to a stop, then that is absolutely wrong.

[Donutz]

You might want to research this topic a little more, although everyone above has summed up the main points. I either downshift or brake into a stop then push in the clutch. I find you can brake down to about 1000 RPM and sometimes lower in our car if you're going to come to a full stop.

You may learn the hard way that it's best to be under power even when cruising into a stop or rolling slowly in stop and go traffic.

[Thunder 3]

If you're coming toward a red light doing 70 though, and then shift to neutral and use the brake to slow to a stop, then that is absolutely wrong.

This is the first place I've heard not to do that...I was taught to do stop in neutral...not to be argumentative but personally I don't understand what the big deal is. I just find that easiest to do...don't have to worry about forgetting the clutch or stalling or anything. To each his own I guess! As long as I'm not harming my car in any way.

[Donutz]

Say you hear squeeling tires and you see some dingus in your rearview has locked up his/her brakes and is sliding towards you. You are in neutral what do you do, get rear ended?

What if something shoots out in front of you and you are in neutral? Sure, you can stop your car, but what if you need to get back on the power to avoid it?

How about stopping in the winter? Compression braking is an invaluable asset for winter driving.

For your own safety you may want to research this a little further. I'm not busting on you, just trying to enlighten you on the value of leaving it in gear. :)

[Speedy2008]

This is the first place I've heard not to do that...I was taught to do stop in neutral...not to be argumentative but personally I don't understand what the big deal is. I just find that easiest to do...don't have to worry about forgetting the clutch or stalling or anything. To each his own I guess! As long as I'm not harming my car in any way.

Geez man, I hope you don't drive around at speed in neutral. Imagine riding your bicycle at 25-35km/hr then suddenly realizing that your chain has fallen off its chainring. Sure you can brake but sometimes you may need to pedal in order to swerve around obstacles. Anyone who rides their bike on Toronto streets can easily understand this comparison.

[Wild Weasel]

This is the first place I've heard not to do that...I was taught to do stop in neutral...not to be argumentative but personally I don't understand what the big deal is. I just find that easiest to do...don't have to worry about forgetting the clutch or stalling or anything. To each his own I guess! As long as I'm not harming my car in any way.

You were taught wrong, and should question anything else your so-called teacher told you when it comes to driving.

If it's any incentive to do things right, when you're giving no throttle and decelerating in gear, you're using no gas. None. Zero. Nada.

You might find your fuel economy improving by proper driving, along with extending your brake pad life.

I'm not going to argue here, as there is nothing to argue. What's easiest is to drive an automatic. If you're going to take control of your car, you should put the effort into doing so correctly.

[cosic]

I started downshifting about 4 months after learning and owning my first manual civic about 3 years ago, but I never got in the habit of tapping the gas while downshifting, just nicely easing off the clutch. I've definately gotten to the point where when I do downshift I do it swiftly enough but smooth to even make it seem or sound like I am tapping on the gas.

I want to hear someone with more knowledge or experience on this situation. Bad, or same thing?

[tweak_s]

I started downshifting about 4 months after learning and owning my first manual civic about 3 years ago, but I never got in the habit of tapping the gas while downshifting, just nicely easing off the clutch. I've definately gotten to the point where when I do downshift I do it swiftly enough but smooth to even make it seem or sound like I am tapping on the gas.

I want to hear someone with more knowledge or experience on this situation. Bad, or same thing?


Well, to sum it up... kind of bad. nothing on your part of skill jsut for your syncrhos.
basically think of it like this:

if in your situation you "dropped" your clutch (or released it very fast), it would jerk pretty bad depending on the gear/speed right?


Doing the blip of the gas basically rev's up your engine to the more appropriate rev.

Done right, even if you release your clutch quite fast... you wouldn't feel much at all.

Honestly, its actually a pretty nice feeling :chuckle.

So take aways: for releasing clutch slowly instead of rev-matching: you're hurting your clutch by releasing it slower than you should (so it takes more wear)

Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong on anything, anyone feel free to correct me. :)

[MSMitch]

Then of course there's heel and toe techniques - pretty much for turns - but that's a whole other can of whoop a55. Something fun to look up and eventually learn in an empty parking lot preferably!

[Wild Weasel]

Well, to sum it up... kind of bad. nothing on your part of skill jsut for your syncrhos.

basically think of it like this:

if in your situation you "dropped" your clutch (or released it very fast), it would jerk pretty bad depending on the gear/speed right?

Well, thats because your wheels speed, and the new gear's are not spinning at the appropriate matched rate, and your transmission's synchronizer's will have to do extra extra work to compensate. That is why releasing the clutch slow , "works" for you, as it gives time for the synchronizers to well, synchronize.

Doing the blip of the gas basically rev's up your transmission to the more appropriate rev (for example theoretically 60KM /h, would be something like 2000RPM in 4th gear, but 3000RPM in 3rd gear ) and hence matches the speed of your wheels and transmission.

Done right, even if you release your clutch quite fast... you wouldn't feel much at all.

Honestly, its actually a pretty nice feeling :chuckle.

So take aways: for releasing clutch slowly instead of rev-matching: you're hurting your clutch by releasing it slower than you should (so it takes more wear), and your synchronizers take more wear as well.

Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong on anything, anyone feel free to correct me. :)


You've got the right idea here but are a little off the mark. Unless you're double-clutching, you're really not doing anything for your synchros. Rev-matching is to smoothly and quickly transition to a lower gear. It saves unnecessary excessive wear on your clutch, though to an extent it can also prevent unnecessary shock to the drivetrain.

Note that "easing it out" is hardly an option if you're looking to downshift in order to pass someone.

For those of you that don't know how to bring the revs up to downshift... how do you pass people? Just mash the pedal and hope for the best?

[Skarbro]

I always downshift.

BTW, it's illegal to coast in Neutral in many States.

[Thrice08]

I'm about half and half, but I don't just shift into neutral I cycle through the gears with the clutch in as I slow down. If your not going to downshift you should always have the car in the proper gear for your speed. It's a safety thing, you could be slowing down and braking and then have to make an evasive maneuver using the gas and if you have to stumble to get into gear you may miss it or shift into the wrong one. You should always downshift or at least cycle through the gears as you slow down.

[Wild Weasel]

Not really.

If you're not going to downshift, then you shouldn't be cycling through the gears because your clutch should still be in so you can't.

Once you're slow enough to put the clutch in, there's no point in cycling through the gears.

[Thrice08]

Weasel not to get into anything here and after reading your posts I've been agreeing with you. I don't think you understand what I mean. When I'm slowing down I either downshift using the rev match technique and a little brake. Or as I said I cycle through the gears as I'm slowing down WITH THE CLUTCH IN.

eg: so if I'm doing 40kmph and have to stop I'll put the clutch in and the shift the car to 3rd but I won't engage the gear as I continue to brake and the car slows I'll put the shifter into 2nd but I'm still keeping the clutch in and as the car slows again I'll shift into first the whole time keeping the clutch in and braking. I'm saying it is safer because even if I don't engage each gear I am still in the appropriate gear for my speed, if I need to speed up because the light changed or I need to avoid somthing I just need to engage the clutch and hit the gas. My car is never in neutral, not even when I park.

[Thrice08]

Not really.

If you're not going to downshift, then you shouldn't be cycling through the gears because your clutch should still be in so you can't.

Yes you can at the appropriate speeds, with the clutch in as your slowing down you can shift into the appropriate gears for your speed. I've been driving stick for 7 years and this method has never burned a clutch nor not worked. It's almost no different than downshifting only your not engaging the gears or using the engine to slow you down. Basically a lazy mans downshift, all I was saying is atl east you are in the proper gear for your speed in case you need to speed up again.

I agree with you that stopping in neutral is incorrect and unsafe, regardless if it works for anyone because it is 'easier' anyone who does this I believe did not learn properly and should make the attempt to drive the car properly. I can see that method being hella dangerous in the winter.

[Skarbro]

Weasel not to get into anything here and after reading your posts I've been agreeing with you. I don't think you understand what I mean. When I'm slowing down I either downshift using the rev match technique and a little brake. Or as I said I cycle through the gears as I'm slowing down WITH THE CLUTCH IN.

eg: so if I'm doing 40kmph and have to stop I'll put the clutch in and the shift the car to 3rd but I won't engage the gear as I continue to brake and the car slows I'll put the shifter into 2nd but I'm still keeping the clutch in and as the car slows again I'll shift into first the whole time keeping the clutch in and braking. I'm saying it is safer because even if I don't engage each gear I am still in the appropriate gear for my speed, if I need to speed up because the light changed or I need to avoid somthing I just need to engage the clutch and hit the gas. My car is never in neutral, not even when I park.
I have to question your technique here. What's the point of riding with the clutch in and cycling through the gears? It doesn't make sense to me. You're there. Why are you not letting the clutch out and putting the car in gear? You mention that you want the shifter to be in the appropriate position to make an evassive maneuver. This is still inferior to actually being in the proper gear with the clutch out.

[Wild Weasel]

I understand why he's doing it, but the reason not to is this:

Let's say you're doing 40 and slowing down to stop. If you're not going to downshift, then you should just leave the clutch in until you get down to 1000 rpm or so.

Of course, off the top of my head I have no idea what speed that happens at.

If you're getting down to idle RPM, put the clutch in, but aren't sure yet whether you're going to stop or keep going (maybe the light is about to turn green or something) then by all means select the gear you think you're going to need. If you're going that slow though, and will probably be needing 2nd if you don't stop, then there's no value in going through 3rd to get there. Just pop it out of 4th and go to 2nd. Of course, if you'd put the clutch in while doing 60 and the braked down to 20, your tranny may still be spinning fast enough that shifting right to 2nd could be hard on the synchros and going through 3rd will slow things down... but you shouldn't have ended up in that boat in the first place.

Regardless, doing this will have no effect at all on the clutch. This is now about the synchros.

[Flagrum_3]

Well, to sum it up... kind of bad. nothing on your part of skill jsut for your syncrhos.

basically think of it like this:

if in your situation you "dropped" your clutch (or released it very fast), it would jerk pretty bad depending on the gear/speed right?

Well, thats because your wheels speed, and the new gear's are not spinning at the appropriate matched rate, and your transmission's synchronizer's will have to do extra extra work to compensate. That is why releasing the clutch slow , "works" for you, as it gives time for the synchronizers to well, synchronize.

Doing the blip of the gas basically rev's up your transmission to the more appropriate rev (for example theoretically 60KM /h, would be something like 2000RPM in 4th gear, but 3000RPM in 3rd gear ) and hence matches the speed of your wheels and transmission.

Done right, even if you release your clutch quite fast... you wouldn't feel much at all.

Honestly, its actually a pretty nice feeling :chuckle.

So take aways: for releasing clutch slowly instead of rev-matching: you're hurting your clutch by releasing it slower than you should (so it takes more wear), and your synchronizers take more wear as well.

Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong on anything, anyone feel free to correct me. :)

You have sorta the right idea except that blipping the throttle does not rev up the tranny! How can it ? your clutch is dis-engaged! What your doing is upping the engine revs to match the tranny revs which is directly related to your tire revolutions...downshifting without blipping the throttle is perfectly fine in 'some instances' if your vehicle speed and enigne revs are fairly close to start with and your technic is perfect, otherwise it is favourable to 'blip match' your revs to your speed.

As for Trice08's method, understand something; when holding your clutch pedal to the floor your clutch is 'dis-engaged', therefore your clutch 'disc' is spinning freely and wobbling to a lesser degree, hense causing unnecessary wear on the disc.Best method is to always (or as much as possible), keep your clutch 'engaged', except of course when coming to a complete stop, stopped or parked! I always find myself downshifting to 3rd or 2nd depending on my original speed and coasting in gear to just about 1000rpm, no brakes, just until I'm just about stopped....saves on fuel, saves on brakes and saves your clutch disc from pre-mature wear.


_3


.

[Wild Weasel]

Clutch is wobbling?? First time I've heard that one. :chuckle

[Thrice08]

I have to question your technique here. What's the point of riding with the clutch in and cycling through the gears? It doesn't make sense to me. You're there. Why are you not letting the clutch out and putting the car in gear? You mention that you want the shifter to be in the appropriate position to make an evassive maneuver. This is still inferior to actually being in the proper gear with the clutch out.

If you read my previous posts I was basically saying that if you are not going to downshift for what ever reason you can do this. This is what I do, and almost everyone else I know and we all learnt from different people. I wouldn't call it a tecnique it is just somthing I naturally do if I don't have time to downshift properly, quick stops etc. I was also making reference to the fact that this method is better than just putting your car in neutral. ATLEAST YOUR CAR IS IN THE APPROPRIATE GEAR AND NOT IN NEUTRAL. The thread is about downshifting or not and some people don't and only brake in neutral, well this is somthing you can do if you are not going to fully downshift.

[tweak_s]

You have sorta the right idea except that blipping the throttle does not rev up the tranny! How can it ? your clutch is dis-engaged! What your doing is upping the engine revs to match the tranny revs which is directly related to your tire revolutions...downshifting without blipping the throttle is perfectly fine in 'some instances' if your vehicle speed and enigne revs are fairly close to start with and your technic is perfect, otherwise it is favourable to 'blip match' your revs to your speed.



.


Yep agreed... mistook it with double clutching as WW pointed out. I'll edit my post to reflect that.

[Skarbro]

If you read my previous posts I was basically saying that if you are not going to downshift for what ever reason you can do this. This is what I do, and almost everyone else I know and we all learnt from different people. I wouldn't call it a tecnique it is just somthing I naturally do if I don't have time to downshift properly, quick stops etc. I was also making reference to the fact that this method is better than just putting your car in neutral. ATLEAST YOUR CAR IS IN THE APPROPRIATE GEAR AND NOT IN NEUTRAL. The thread is about downshifting or not and some people don't and only brake in neutral, well this is somthing you can do if you are not going to fully downshift.
Why don't you release the clutch and put it in gear? This is what I don't understand.

Most of the people you know do this? I don't know a single one!

[Flagrum_3]

Clutch is wobbling?? First time I've heard that one. :chuckle

Have you ever replaced a clutch? if you have you would have noticed the clutch disk is not attached to anything, it 'rides' on a serpentined shaft, that shaft will keep it in place and not allow it to spin wildly but has enough free play where the 'disk' will wobble to a certain degree (when the clutch is disengaged) and when doing so will be brushing against the flywheel and pressure plates to a certain degree also...its pretty simple to comprehend then that leaving your clutch dis-engaged unnessarilly is not a good practice and will increase the wear on your clutch!


_3


.

[Thrice08]

Why don't you release the clutch and put it in gear? This is what I don't understand.

Most of the people you know do this? I don't know a single one!

I guess I should be more specific, I'm talking about slowing down to come to a complete stop without actually engaging any of the gears on the way down but I put the shifter in the appropriate gear 'incase' I need to accelerate (ie if the light turns green etc.)

I know I'm not doing anything out of the ordinary, I'm sure if you saw the way I drive you would understand, it's nothing crazy nor is it a techinique it's just a natural thing I just do. If I have time to down shift I do, I'm not going to explain myself anymore. I think this whole thing got misunderstood as do most threads of this nature. Driving a standard vehicle really comes down to personal preference, there are certain things you should do and things you should avoid but ultimately it's what makes you comfortable. Obviously in a perfect world you would downshift and engage every gear. But not everyone does this and that is all I'm saying. I had my last car and never replaced the clutch had it for 6 years 200,000kms. There are worse ways to wear your breaks and clutch.

[Flagrum_3]

I guess I should be more specific, I'm talking about slowing down to come to a complete stop without actually engaging any of the gears on the way down but I put the shifter in the appropriate gear 'incase' I need to accelerate (ie if the light turns green etc.)

I know I'm not doing anything out of the ordinary, I'm sure if you saw the way I drive you would understand, it's nothing crazy nor is it a techinique it's just a natural thing I just do. If I have time to down shift I do, I'm not going to explain myself anymore. I think this whole thing got misunderstood as do most threads of this nature. Driving a standard vehicle really comes down to personal preference, there are certain things you should do and things you should avoid but ultimately it's what makes you comfortable. Obviously in a perfect world you would downshift and engage every gear. But not everyone does this and that is all I'm saying. I had my last car and never replaced the clutch had it for 6 years 200,000kms. There are worse ways to wear your breaks and clutch.

I think Skarbro understands exactly what you are doing but is just dumbfounded as to why you do it that way! As am I to tell you the truth....its unconventional, and its flawed.Don't get me wrong here, if it's more comfortable for you to carry on with your method than all the power to ya, but there is a right and wrong way to drive a standard and your method is just wrong....sorry!


_3

.

[Wild Weasel]

Obviously in a perfect world you would downshift and engage every gear. But not everyone does this and that is all I'm saying. I had my last car and never replaced the clutch had it for 6 years 200,000kms. There are worse ways to wear your breaks and clutch.

I would never suggest downshifting and engaging every gear, every time. Just not worth the effort, and there's no point in downshifting to 1st.

As for your clutch... doing what you're doing has no effect at all on your clutch. No worries there.

The only question is why your clutch is pushed in to begin with, such that you have time to go through the gears like you do. You'd be better off not pushing in the clutch during that time, just leaving it in gear until you're near stopping, and then just choosing the gear you want.

My issue with what you're doing has nothing to do with what you're doing with the shifter. I get why you're doing that. I'm just suggesting that you leave the clutch engaged instead. You'll save some gas, reduce brake wear, and not be coasting.

I have a feeling though that you're only doing this at very low speeds though, so it's probably completely a non issue.

Let's say you're doing 75 and there's an amber light up ahead and you know you need to stop. You don't push the clutch in and brake to a stop while going through your gears, do you? From what you're saying, I'm assuming that you slow down to 30 or 20 or so, and then go through this gear exercise. Does that sound about right?

[Thrice08]

I would never suggest downshifting and engaging every gear, every time. Just not worth the effort, and there's no point in downshifting to 1st.

As for your clutch... doing what you're doing has no effect at all on your clutch. No worries there.

The only question is why your clutch is pushed in to begin with, such that you have time to go through the gears like you do. You'd be better off not pushing in the clutch during that time, just leaving it in gear until you're near stopping, and then just choosing the gear you want.

My issue with what you're doing has nothing to do with what you're doing with the shifter. I get why you're doing that. I'm just suggesting that you leave the clutch engaged instead. You'll save some gas, reduce brake wear, and not be coasting.

I have a feeling though that you're only doing this at very low speeds though, so it's probably completely a non issue.

Let's say you're doing 75 and there's an amber light up ahead and you know you need to stop. You don't push the clutch in and brake to a stop while going through your gears, do you? From what you're saying, I'm assuming that you slow down to 30 or 20 or so, and then go through this gear exercise. Does that sound about right?

Exactly, it's quite the non issue. As I've tried to explain and other members can't seem to drop it. I'm almost done with this forum as all forums where everyone is quick to dispute somthing they don't know is right or wrong. Maybe if you actually thought about what I am doing as weasel does it wouldn't be an issue.

I'm not going to explain myself anymore since no one seems to understand it anyways.

[Thrice08]

I think Skarbro understands exactly what you are doing but is just dumbfounded as to why you do it that way! As am I to tell you the truth....its unconventional, and its flawed.Don't get me wrong here, if it's more comfortable for you to carry on with your method than all the power to ya, but there is a right and wrong way to drive a standard and your method is just wrong....sorry!


_3

.

Not sure what makes you the professional when it comes to driving stick but I'll take your word anways :chuckle

[Thrice08]

I would never suggest downshifting and engaging every gear, every time. Just not worth the effort, and there's no point in downshifting to 1st.


Pretty much what I meant all together, thanks for pissing me off everyone. What weasel

[Thrice08]

Sorry I meant thanks weasel for seeing it my way aswell, I appreciate it

[Skarbro]

Um... I understand quite perfectly what you are saying. I just don't agree with it.

But I guess it's better than just dropping it into neutral.

[Videcak]

Thrice08, you realize you are causing lots of wear to your throwout bearing by holding the clutch in the whole time you are slowing down...

I downshift all the time rev-matching (HKS Hi-Power ftw!), and heel-toe whenever I can...

[Flagrum_3]

Thrice08, you realize you are causing lots of wear to your throwout bearing by holding the clutch in the whole time you are slowing down...

And the clutch disk, whether WW wants to believe it or not.


_3


.

[Flagrum_3]

Not sure what makes you the professional when it comes to driving stick but I'll take your word anways :chuckle

Well I never said I was an expert but considering I've known how to drive stick since I was twelve, that's 37 years by the way, have driven farm tractors, tractor trailors, dump trucks, 5-tonnes etc; etc;...yeah I guess I 'could' be classified as an expert!...but you wouldn't hear me say that.:chuckle


_3


.

[Skarbro]

I have to agree with Wild Weasel on the clutch wobble argument. The clutch sits on a spline input shaft and does not wobble when the clutch is in. You can see it here in this video (about 55 seconds in):

http://videos.howstuffworks.com/howstuffworks/116-how-clutches-work-video.htm

[Thrice08]

Anyways, I never once said that what I was doing is the correct way, I was explaining to people who shift to neutral that they should atleast keep the car in the proper gear for safety reasons.

I maybe shouldn't mention this but I had an anonymous private message from an individual stating that a couple of you are notorious for 'always being right'. So obviously this is not the first time you guys have acted this way. Flagrum 3 for a 39 year old you are quite immature. I never questioned your methods nor did I ask for any advice. I was simply stating my opinion for some who do not even make an attempt to down shift. Since people are contacting me maybe some of you should think about how you are responding to other individuals posts and taking the time to read what others have to say before crapping all over them.

Sorry to the original creator for making this post what it has become.

[Videcak]

I was explaining to people who shift to neutral that they should atleast keep the car in the proper gear for safety reasons.


I think this is what caused this whole mess. What you are doing is not putting the car into gear...the car is in gear when the clutch is released, until then it is just the shifter knob itself in a new position...therefore not actually downshifting...

[Flagrum_3]

Anyways, I never once said that what I was doing is the correct way, I was explaining to people who shift to neutral that they should atleast keep the car in the proper gear for safety reasons.

I maybe shouldn't mention this but I had an anonymous private message from an individual stating that a couple of you are notorious for 'always being right'. So obviously this is not the first time you guys have acted this way. Flagrum 3 for a 39 year old you are quite immature. I never questioned your methods nor did I ask for any advice. I was simply stating my opinion for some who do not even make an attempt to down shift. Since people are contacting me maybe some of you should think about how you are responding to other individuals posts and taking the time to read what others have to say before crapping all over them.

Sorry to the original creator for making this post what it has become.

I'm 49, and why am I immature because I pointed out your doing something wrong! (my opinion also)...but if you read my first post refering to you I also said, do what makes you happy.And if your bunching me up in the 'couple of you' then all I can say is others whom might say them things are immature and you shouldn't listen to them, because when it comes to many things covered on this board I am always right :chuckle


_3


.

[Wild Weasel]

I maybe shouldn't mention this but I had an anonymous private message from an individual stating that a couple of you are notorious for 'always being right'.

Pfft. PM SchmeeEm. I thought it was common knowledge here that I am always right. :bana

[Flagrum_3]

I have to agree with Wild Weasel on the clutch wobble argument. The clutch sits on a spline input shaft and does not wobble when the clutch is in. You can see it here in this video (about 55 seconds in):

http://videos.howstuffworks.com/howstuffworks/116-how-clutches-work-video.htm

Seriously how is that video going to show you anything? Its an animation!
If you heard what he said though "the disc spins freely" when the clutch is disengaged~Its during this period the disc does wobble but like I said ever so slightly, as the tolerance between the spline and disc is not tight by design.
That's a fact jack.


_3


.

[Wild Weasel]

I can't back up my call of shenanigans with any first hand knowledge, so I'll just keep to myself on this one. But I'm keeping my broom close at hand.

Gotta put a clutch into something this summer so I can better argue with you, old man! :bana

[Flagrum_3]

I can't back up my call of shenanigans with any first hand knowledge, so I'll just keep to myself on this one. But I'm keeping my broom close at hand.

Gotta put a clutch into something this summer so I can better argue with you, old man! :bana

Just make sure you rent a proper jack and mock spline shaft for the installation or you'll have a hell of a time and don't forget measure the clearance between the spline and disc grooves.:)


_3


.

[cosic]

Downshifting for slowing down, compared to downshifting for passing is pretty different. In that case, obviously people rev match. I guess I'll just have to get into it. Not a problem

[Speedy2008]

Anyways, I never once said that what I was doing is the correct way, I was explaining to people who shift to neutral that they should atleast keep the car in the proper gear for safety reasons.

I maybe shouldn't mention this but I had an anonymous private message from an individual stating that a couple of you are notorious for 'always being right'. So obviously this is not the first time you guys have acted this way. Flagrum 3 for a 39 year old you are quite immature. I never questioned your methods nor did I ask for any advice. I was simply stating my opinion for some who do not even make an attempt to down shift. Since people are contacting me maybe some of you should think about how you are responding to other individuals posts and taking the time to read what others have to say before crapping all over them.

Sorry to the original creator for making this post what it has become.

The mild criticism you may be experiencing was designed to be constructive. Perhaps there is no right or wrong way to slow down towards a traffic light since we face numerous different driving scenarios every time we drive. Although WW is facing some animosity from fellow members, I believe that he has made some very good points. His methods which are similar to mine are simple to execute on a consistent basis. Our city roads are sometimes a complicated mess, why not use our brakes to slow down/stop & use our gears to propel us forward. We all know the acronym, K.I.S.S.

[Thrice08]

I am all for constructive criticism I deal with it everyday at work as a graphic designer. The problem I had with the conversation is that it was starting to be very one sided and I felt there were some condescending undertones. I'm not an idiot, I know that downshifting is the proper way to drive a standard, but not everyone does and in the grand scheme of things it really doesn't matter we all love our cars. I'm pretty sure those were the comments the creator of this thread was looking for not basically calling people out for driving a different way. The best thing you can do is search online and inform yourself on proper ways to drive stick, since this was all going on today I did some reading myself and found out that everything else I was doing is spot on (which I figured), just because I don't downshift every single gear in every scenario doesn't mean I don't know what I'm doing. Try reading between the lines the next time you thread crap...

[Wild Weasel]

Just to toss in a word here...

Not sure if that was sarcasm in your post or not, but nobody is suggesting anyone downshift every single gear.

I don't think anyone should downshift to 1st. Ever.

And I don't think anyone HAS to downshift at all when coming to a stop. I don't all the time.

The only thing I've been stressing in this thread is that people should NOT coast in neutral. That's the thing I've been stressing here not to do.

Just to get that straight. :)

[CM3]

LOL maybe I shouldnt ask anymore questions...seeing that a world war III of words started haha, Thanks for all the help though :chuckle

[Skarbro]

Seriously how is that video going to show you anything? Its an animation!
If you heard what he said though "the disc spins freely" when the clutch is disengaged~Its during this period the disc does wobble but like I said ever so slightly, as the tolerance between the spline and disc is not tight by design.
That's a fact jack.


_3


.
Really? The disc is loose on the spline? I'll have to see this first-hand for myself.

[MSMitch]

LOL maybe I shouldnt ask anymore questions...seeing that a world war III of words started haha, Thanks for all the help though :chuckle
You should stick with safe questions like; what is the best hand driving position, or which colour Mazda is the fastest :chuckle:chuckle
Good question, interesting, enlightening and rather funny thread as a result - well done!

[EvilDeadFan]

Downshift.

[Thrice08]

Just to toss in a word here...

Not sure if that was sarcasm in your post or not, but nobody is suggesting anyone downshift every single gear.

I don't think anyone should downshift to 1st. Ever.

And I don't think anyone HAS to downshift at all when coming to a stop. I don't all the time.

The only thing I've been stressing in this thread is that people should NOT coast in neutral. That's the thing I've been stressing here not to do.

Just to get that straight. :)

You know what's funny is that you summed up exactly what I was trying to say in one easy post. I may not be the best with words but I don't really understand why everything got out of hand. I do want to apologize for probably not helping the situation but I was just a little offended by certain comments. Can't we all just get along? lol Next time lets argue over which colour is the fastest :).

[Flagrum_3]

Really? The disc is loose on the spline? I'll have to see this first-hand for myself.

Well how would you expect the disc to slide away and towards the flywheel if there wasn't enough 'loosness' for it to move? There is no lubrication used there at all.

The clearance between the disc's splines and spline shaft must be there to allow freedom of movement and compensate for temperature changes or else you'd have your clutch disc sticking or seizing on you in a very short period....so there is a tolerance built in to the design but this tolerance unfortunitely also allows the disc to wobble slightly, therefore allowing for some undo wear but only in instances when the clutch is disengaged.


_3


.

[Skarbro]

Thrice - I tried your technique yesterday while driving home. I just couldn't get it to make sense in my head.

Let's say you're in 4th and have to stop. I can understand riding in 4th until the RPMs get down to 1,000 then putting the clutch in. But at that point, if you want to get going again, 3rd gear would be the incorrect gear. You would have to be in 2nd for it to make any sense. So running the shifter through 3rd makes no sense to me in this situation.

Now, if what you do is put the clutch in at the time when you would need 3rd gear to get going again as the correct gear, then you are most definitely putting the clutch in way too soon (higher than 1,000 RPMs). In that situation, you are doing no better than putting the car in neutral and riding on the brakes-only too much through the stop.

[Skarbro]

Well how would you expect the disc to slide away and towards the flywheel if there wasn't enough 'loosness' for it to move? There is no lubrication used there at all.

The clearance between the disc's splines and spline shaft must be there to allow freedom of movement and compensate for temperature changes or else you'd have your clutch disc sticking or seizing on you in a very short period....so there is a tolerance built in to the design but this tolerance unfortunitely also allows the disc to wobble slightly, therefore allowing for some undo wear but only in instances when the clutch is disengaged.


_3


.
What's with all the bold, buddy? :)

I understand that it slides on the spline. I just don't think that the tolerance is extreme enough to consider the plate as wobbling. To me that's an extreme word to describe what I think of as a very very very very very very very very small movement.

But I'm not professing to be an expert on the subject. I've yet to see one first-hand. ;)

[Flagrum_3]

What's with all the bold, buddy? :)

I understand that it slides on the spline. I just don't think that the tolerance is extreme enough to consider the plate as wobbling. To me that's an extreme word to describe what I think of as a very very very very very very very very small movement.

But I'm not professing to be an expert on the subject. I've yet to see one first-hand. ;)

I like BOLD :chuckle, hey it wasn't capatilized!! I used bold just to emphasize those points!....If you have an oppurtunity to afix a clutch disc to a splined shaft you will see that you can actually wiggle the disc slightly, I'll add, as I've alway said....but you guys don't believe me (like always) do some research on the internet,(Ive seen this exact point stated a couple of times) or go ask a tranny replacement guy at Mister transmission or somewhere!.


_3


.

[Skarbro]

No worries. Weasel and I know of a couple of cars that need new clutches. I plan on getting more educated with dirty hands.

[Gods Son]

Whoa whoa, i was reading through all the posts and it got kinda heated in here lol I think its pretty obvious that when it comes to standard everyone has a different style and in some cases similar.

I recall in one of the posts someone saying they were doing 40 and downshifting to 3rd. Personally, I don't see the point as your rpm will be so low that speeding up will take a lil longer than usual and the car will be less inclined to engine brake where as if you would've downshifted to 2nd.

In regards to another point of downshifting to first, I swear in the mazda 3 manual it says you shouldn't do it. And just in general i thought it is a good rule of thumb not to downshift to 1st. Well thats how i was taught anyway and ive been driving standard since 2002.

[ghostdog]

yes the general rule of thumb told to me is that if it is over 10km/h then you shouldn't downshift to 1st gear... it kills the gear...

[Wild Weasel]

Normally, unless you're coming to a complete stop you don't need to shift to 1st.