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View Full Version : Tolls on the 400-series highways, the Don Valley Parkway and Gardiner Expressway?



b3GS
06-18-2008, 11:47 AM
I'm surprised this hasn't been discussed here yet.

this to me is crazy. Didn't the government OWN a toll highway which they promptly sold to a corporation????? :loco

perhaps the question should be asked is where is the money being spent that is collected on the gas tax already? It is getting insanely expensive to drive a car at all now and they are proposing this? :bang

on the other hand.. I can see some benefits if it eases congestion and the money is actually spent on improving mass transit and highway conditions.
but we all know it won't be spent properly, what government has ever spent money properly? :bang

http://www.thestar.com/GTA/Columnist/article/444421


Road tolls, a bitter pill that works

Jun 17, 2008 04:30 AM
Royson James

Road tolls are coming – and it will be good for you.

That may be the easiest of the arguments Metrolinx has to make to GTA residents long starved of top-notch transit.

Metrolinx is the 11-member provincial agency (most members are municipal politicians) charged with the task of developing a 25-year transportation plan for the region. There is no shortage of ideas and projects as each city and town has dusted off favourite projects. What's been missing is the money – not good when the price tag is in the neighbourhood of $17 billion.

The province will pick up a hefty portion. And we can always pray for a change in Ottawa. But municipalities will have to chip in between $2.8 billion and $6.2 billion a year of their own share. And municipalities mean you.

Metrolinx is to present a draft report on the financing options next month and decide by October. And last Friday board members received an update, a kind of preview of what to expect. That's where the road toll, or road pricing option, came up.

Once upon a time, promoting that option would have been fatal to anyone's political fortunes. Now, just about everyone realizes that road tolls are a given as the region attempts to grapple with millions of trips in one of the fastest-growing areas in the nation.

In case you are still skeptical about the need for road tolls, consider the options and alternatives for the GTA and Hamilton, each one netting $1 billion per year:

Add a 20-cent tax to each litre of gas;

Raise transit fares, especially in the 905 region, so that the fare box covers half the operating cost. The TTC is already there;

Add a 1 per cent retail sales tax;

Lobby governments to pay half the capital costs;

Slap a $1 per weekday tax on non-residential parking spaces;

Impose a 10-cent per kilometre toll on the Gardiner, Don Valley Parkway and 400 series highways.

If you managed to get all those through – all six – then you would have netted about $6 billion and have begun to address the GTA region's transportation needs. That explains why a sure thing like road tolls can't be omitted as a funding option.

Metrolinx has some advantages over the politicians who proposed road tolls in the past. The mayors and regional chairs that sit on this agency don't have to seek re-election based on their actions and voting record at Metrolinx.

For example, Mayor David Miller's re-election platform doesn't include his imposing road tolls on Toronto residents to maintain or expand the TTC. Rather, Miller pushes the idea at Metrolinx where the politicians are better insulated from public backlash.

Whether or not that flies in the face of responsible governance is a matter for pundits and the guardians of democracy. But it is efficacious. We've known that it will cost bundles of money to address our transit deficit across the region. And we know property taxes alone can't pick up the tab. That part isn't new. What is new is we have an agency that is positioned and prepared to dispense the medicine so needed to fix the region's ailing transportation infrastructure.

Which would you rather pay to get the subways and streetcars and high occupancy vehicle lanes and rapid transit and road improvements needed to move this region daily? More gas tax on top of already outrageous gasoline prices? How about a 1 per cent sales tax? None of them is painless. And we need them all.

Just remind us of the benefits.

Mafty
06-18-2008, 12:27 PM
i cant believe this.............wow driving is going to be non existent for many people now

Gizzmo_jr
06-18-2008, 12:32 PM
What next, congestion tax?

silvermist99
06-18-2008, 12:39 PM
just watch, even they do get the $6billion, after all this the public transit system is STILL going to be sh!t and inaccessible to half the people in 905 region without a car in the winter (especially older people). There is no fix to this. unless maybe the gov forks out $100billion and swollow it themselves to built underground subway/express train everywhere in GTA.

silvermist99
06-18-2008, 12:40 PM
What next, congestion tax?

tax for breatheing air? tax on sunny days for seeing the sun? tax for using the washroom?

openuser
06-18-2008, 12:49 PM
This is ridiculous..
Instead of trying to get more funding, they should reduce unneccesary expenses like keeping bunch of lazy ass bums that do nothing but munch on precious tax money.
Honestly, how many goverment workers even match the productivity of the private sector employees?

LockOut
06-18-2008, 12:49 PM
i cant believe this.............wow driving is going to be non existent for many people now
I can't believe I'm saying this, but pretty soon, I won't be able to afford to commute... I'll have to get a place downtown and go to work from there....

That being said, I've decided that my next car will be some sort of a turbo-ed car (maybe an MS3, especially if they come out with a sedan in the next few years...) if I'm living downtown and don't have to use it for a daily driver... So it's not ALL bad, I guess... :chuckle

KenYork
06-18-2008, 12:59 PM
It eventually had to happen, just that people don't want to realize the truth. I'm already looking to downsize my house and move back into the city, have my car sitting more in the driveway. I can't stand having to always rely on a car.

TheProfessor
06-18-2008, 02:34 PM
Wouldn't the change to charging tolls on the proposed highways just cause an insane amount of traffic on city streets and alternate routes?

I'm not sure if tolls are the answer.

kid_icarus
06-18-2008, 02:53 PM
tolls definitely work, as can be seen in a variety of other countries
unfortunately like many of you said, it will depend primarily on how the city uses or abuses this new funding.

if anything the toll should change depending on day and hour. to encourage carpooling/mass transit when most needed. weekends, should see the toll right at the bottom of the charges if not zero., so we can cruise freely =)

tolls can be the answer... it just takes serious thought and planning by our cities...

- personally i've always thought that downtown toronto should be completely closed to inidividual-vehicles. that or there isa toll to enter the downtown core. allowing only taxis, street cars, subways, buses
- i think large hubs should be created in a variety of places around the gta where ppl can get to easily and find parking easily.
- we start from the center and vastly improve mass transit where ppl can make it on time, where transit is run continuously and consistently and comfortably
- then apply this outwards into etobicoke, north york, etc etc

anyways don't flame me for this idea... it is.. just an idea... but imagine a downtown core that was reliably dependant on mass transit that was easily accessible from all corners of the gta...
automated payment machines, and low cost... you can jump on a bus at union and get to college in 10 minutes max...
buses that don't need to stop every 1 block becuase ppl are too lazy to walk 90 seconds or because some jerk wants to make a left turn in a no left turn lane.

Wild Weasel
06-18-2008, 03:21 PM
I think they should go for it, but any car registered in the City of Toronto should be exempt.

We're already paying the new registration tax. That should give us a "Get on the Highway Free" card. :)

b3GS
06-18-2008, 03:35 PM
I think they should go for it, but any car registered in the City of Toronto should be exempt.

We're already paying the new registration tax. That should give us a "Get on the Highway Free" card. :)

you honestly think that will happen? you'll be paying on top of that fee.

nobody seems to be questioning how much it will cost to make these highways toll ready either.

kid_icarus
06-18-2008, 03:48 PM
you honestly think that will happen? you'll be paying on top of that fee.

nobody seems to be questioning how much it will cost to make these highways toll ready either.

well the government will find some way to pull that out of their budget i'm sure. called cutting spending on education and health care =)

i mean they'll stick a few booths onto the highway. screw us around by widening the roads and causing construction delays

i don't think it's the main meat of the article though
the focus is on the toll itself more or less the expenditure of building the toll booths. if they build the booths, no one is gonna put up a fight
ppl will put up a fight on the idea of paying tolls.

Flagrum_3
06-18-2008, 03:53 PM
I think some people are forgetting about the whole 407 fiascoes!! Does anyone really think tolls are the answer? It is theft plain and simple!

They will spend billions fixing the roads, converting them to tolls, then they will sell them to private investors who will then periodically increase the $/km until no one can afford it.The tax money will never go to where it should and we will never know where it goes at all.....that is the reality!!

I am beside myself that ALL Ontarians would not be crying bloody murder at this point! ...They should be asking what the government is doing with all the taxes we pay now and they generate from things such as 30+ cents a litre tax (which is supposed to go directly to transportation and infrastructure), but doesn't....What about the revenue collected from Lottery's and Casino's??


I think everyone should be extremely pissed at this point with all the taxes and the government mis-management of such and be 110% against any type money grabbing scheme.....


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Wild Weasel
06-18-2008, 03:58 PM
Apparently they're funnelling all the tax dollars into their pockets (and those of their friends) by routing it through the health-care system. Anyone read the recent news about how they won't let the ombudsman see the records for health care?

kid_icarus
06-18-2008, 04:08 PM
definitely agreed that our governments are not the most honest governments.... i think they just enjoy power and facetime

there are very few who are genuinely interested in improving things.

the 407 thing was different though... they couldn't afford to finish building the highway which is why the sold it
i'm pretty sure they've learned from that stupid move

anyways... there are a lot of good sytems out there... canada's government just refuses to adopt and use them honestly
i won't argue with that.

Flagrum_3
06-18-2008, 05:49 PM
definitely agreed that our governments are not the most honest governments.... i think they just enjoy power and facetime

there are very few who are genuinely interested in improving things.

the 407 thing was different though... they couldn't afford to finish building the highway which is why the sold it
i'm pretty sure they've learned from that stupid move

I don't believe that was the issue, from what I recall and I followed it closely, they had already completed 90% of the hwy construction at a cost of 1 Billion dollars to the tax payers I will add and used the notion that selling the rights to the 407 would save taxpayers money from future costs in upkeep of the 407....It was plainly a travesty and probably one of the biggest and most blatent acts of fraud perpetuated on the public by our politicians since the Free Trade Agreement....They didn't have to learn anything and obviously alot of the public didn't either.

I say NO to any TOLLS period.


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Flagrum_3
06-18-2008, 05:52 PM
Apparently they're funnelling all the tax dollars into their pockets (and those of their friends) by routing it through the health-care system. Anyone read the recent news about how they won't let the ombudsman see the records for health care?

Yeah I saw that report! What a Joke eh! ....So much for free and open government! They keep us in the dark and pocket our money....basterds!


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MajesticBlueNTO
06-18-2008, 06:22 PM
definitely agreed that our governments are not the most honest governments.... i think they just enjoy power and facetime

there are very few who are genuinely interested in improving things.

the 407 thing was different though... they couldn't afford to finish building the highway which is why the sold it
i'm pretty sure they've learned from that stupid move

anyways... there are a lot of good sytems out there... canada's government just refuses to adopt and use them honestly
i won't argue with that.


I don't believe that was the issue, from what I recall and I followed it closely, they had already completed 90% of the hwy construction at a cost of 1 Billion dollars to the tax payers I will add and used the notion that selling the rights to the 407 would save taxpayers money from future costs in upkeep of the 407....It was plainly a travesty and probably one of the biggest and most blatent acts of fraud perpetuated on the public by our politicians since the Free Trade Agreement....They didn't have to learn anything and obviously alot of the public didn't either.

I say NO to any TOLLS period.


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the PC govt at the time sold off the rights to own and operate the 407 to a Spanish consortium for $3.1B to not run a negative budget. They also leased ownership of the land and everything else (roads, buildings, strucutres) on the land for 99 years, after which the govt will take back ownership.

It was to satisfy a Bill that they enacted not to run a deficit, or risk paying a substantial penalty.

since that time, customer service at their call centre, and road construction/maintenance have remarkably improved. however, the province also threw away a constant revenue stream. in fact, some have likened the PC govt's sale of the 407 as selling all your furniture to make your mortgage payment - dumb and shortsighted.

when construction of the 407 began, while the NDP were in power, the tolls were conceived to recoup their construction costs. once the cost of construction was recovered, the 407 was to return to being a 'freeway' ...hmm, only 91 years to go before it goes back to the govt...not in my lifetime.

Flagrum_3
06-18-2008, 06:28 PM
the PC govt at the time sold off the rights to own and operate the 407 to a Spanish consortium for $3.1B to not run a negative budget. They also leased ownership of the land and everything else (roads, buildings, strucutres) on the land for 99 years, after which the govt will take back ownership.

It was to satisfy a Bill that they enacted not to run a deficit, or risk paying a substantial penalty.

since that time, customer service at their call centre, and road construction/maintenance have remarkably improved. however, the province also threw away a constant revenue stream. in fact, some have likened the PC govt's sale of the 407 as selling all your furniture to make your mortgage payment - dumb and shortsighted.

when construction of the 407 began, while the NDP were in power, the tolls were conceived to recoup their construction costs. once the cost of construction was recovered, the 407 was to return to being a 'freeway' ...hmm, only 91 years to go before it goes back to the govt...not in my lifetime.


Yeah thats the way it happened! thanks for the refresher! ......91 years left! We'll all be gone and people will probably be tele-porting by then :chuckle

They'll sell the rights to the Tele-porters then!:chuckle


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