Hesitation on low rpm launch

[wikdslo]

I just noticed this yesterday while driving. The car was purchased used, 114k. Not sure on the history but no accidents reported.

When I launch the car at a low rpm and just get it rolling, 1000 ~ 1200 rpm, then hammer on the gas, the whole car kind of bucks.
It bogs out for a second, then kicks a bit and starts to accelerate.

If i just give it a bit of gas and get it over the 1500 ~ 1800 rpm range, then it's fine.

Just wondering if this is normal, or an issue I should look into?
Maybe an overfueling issue?


Thanks.

[shuller1458]

Just do a 3000 rpm clutch drop, you won't have any bogging down issues. :)

The is big problems with intake manifolds on mazdas 3. So it's possability. We replace them very often.

[wikdslo]

Just do a 3000 rpm clutch drop, you won't have any bogging down issues. :)

The is big problems with intake manifolds on mazdas 3. So it's possability. We replace them very often.

Ha, yeah I suppose that COULD fix the problem :)

But, what are you referring to when you talk about the Intake manifold?
Throttlebody?
Carbon buildup?

[shuller1458]

no, not the throtle body. The whole plastic black intake manifold. Something always brakes inside of them, and you got to replace the whole thing. 600+ $. :( Here at Airport mazda I sell them to service on avarage one in 2 days.

[wikdslo]

no, not the throtle body. The whole plastic black intake manifold. Something always brakes inside of them, and you got to replace the whole thing. 600+ $. :( Here at Airport mazda I sell them to service on avarage one in 2 days.

Jeebus.

Well, I have both MAP warranty and Lubrico warranty on this guy.

I'll have to get it in to determine if it is in fact the IM and which warranty will cover it!

Is there any way I can check myself to determine what the issue is?

I've scoured the forums, and saw lots of threads of some valve that tends to break, but nothing technical to state how I find this valve and confirm what the issue is.

[mazdabetty]

Mine does that too, but it's automatic... same deal I suppose?

[shuller1458]

ok I have talked to my tech.

I don't think manifold is your problem. He told me that early mazdas3 had problems with intake manifolds due to a loud ticking noise. Like injector ticking, but louder. What it is, is that air valves inside manifold would become loose and rattle.

[wikdslo]

ok I have talked to my tech.

I don't think manifold is your problem. He told me that early mazdas3 had problems with intake manifolds due to a loud ticking noise. Like injector ticking, but louder. What it is, is that air valves inside manifold would become loose and rattle.

I do have a tick.

It's not crazily loud or anything, but it is definitely there.
I have been reading up a lot on that too. All indications point to intake manifold for that issue.

[shuller1458]

Well, than you know what to fix.

[wikdslo]

Well, than you know what to fix.

:) Much appreciated!

[shuller1458]

It might not fix it, but it will be a step for isolation of the problem.

[wikdslo]

It might not fix it, but it will be a step for isolation of the problem.

For sure. I'll look into this!

[sas]

A had a similar symptoms on cold engine with my old 323.
It was a misfiring. Even not as misfiring as leaking somewhere in the high voltage
circuits. I changed spark plugs, cleaned out caps with acetone, and all was ok.

[wikdslo]

A had a similar symptoms on cold engine with my old 323.
It was a misfiring. Even not as misfiring as leaking somewhere in the high voltage
circuits. I changed spark plugs, cleaned out caps with acetone, and all was ok.

I just checked my spark plugs last month and they were all good, but I will pull them again and see how they look. If it's running rich maybe they have some carbon buildup or something.

Mine happens when it's warm or cold.
It seems ok when i launch the car and have the clutch fully disengaged closer to 1700+rpm.

But when I launch it at 1000 ~ 1200rpm and then press the gas, the whole car slows down first, bucks a bit, then starts to get going.

I'm not 100% sure that my low end acceleration in any gear is right either. Sometimes it seems like the car hesitates a little to get going.

I'm waiting for that MAP warranty to get switched over, then I'm going to try getting Mazda to change out my Intake Manifold. I know that there is some ticking action happening, not loud, but audible.

Will try that first, then go from there.

[wikdslo]

BTW:
2004 Mazda 3 GT Hatch
114K on the 2.3L
5 Speed
Seems to run and drive fine other than the above mentioned issues.

[sas]

Wariants with injectors,low fuel pressure,air filter,swirl valve are possible too.
But, as I understand, you stil have power at 2000rpm and higher. Plus , if those parameters
are changed on more then 30-35 percents you should to have the CEL.
When engine works at low RPM you have a small timing advance, at high RPM the advance is being increased.
With small timing advance at moment of spark the pressure in the combustion chamber higher and the spark appearing at higher voltage. Sometimes it's enought to shot somewhere in another place. That is why I think about misfiring.

[wikdslo]

Wariants with injectors,low fuel pressure,air filter,swirl valve are pissible too.
But, as I understand, you stil have power at 2000rpm and higher. Plus , if those parameters
are changed on more then 30-35 percents you should to have the CEL.
When engine works at low RPM you have a small timing advance, at high RPM the advance is being increased.
With small timing advance at moment of spark the pressure in the combustion chamber higher and the spark appearing at higher voltage. Sometimes it's enought to shot somewhere in another place. That is why I think about misfiring.

I gotcha.

I'm going to have the Mazda dealer take a look at replacing the Intake Manifold or doing a valve adjustment if necessary to alleviate the Tick.
Might have to pay for the damn 96000km service.. BLEH!

Right now, I'm going to head up to a shop and pick up a ScanGauge II so at least I can monitor some data, and see if anything goes crazy on me.

I noticed a little bit of RPM bouncing going on last night, only happened when I had first turned on the car, and only lasted for about 5 ~ 10 seconds.. but still, never saw that before either.

[wikdslo]

I gotcha.

I'm going to have the Mazda dealer take a look at replacing the Intake Manifold or doing a valve adjustment if necessary to alleviate the Tick.
Might have to pay for the damn 96000km service.. BLEH!

Right now, I'm going to head up to a shop and pick up a ScanGauge II so at least I can monitor some data, and see if anything goes crazy on me.

I noticed a little bit of RPM bouncing going on last night, only happened when I had first turned on the car, and only lasted for about 5 ~ 10 seconds.. but still, never saw that before either.

So I found out that the service records on my car indicate the Intake Manifold was already done under warranty, I believe last year, (about 10k ago).

So, I will for the time put that one aside as likely not being the issue, and look towards something else.
I noticed that the 96000km service shows a valve adjustment.?

[shuller1458]

Hold on a second, which dealership did you go and when?

[carbon3]

I noticed that on my car also, Try grounding the throttle Body, I noticed a diffrence with it grounded, Runs alot smoother.

[sas]

I noticed that the 96000km service shows a valve adjustment.?
I wouldn’t wait from them big body movements in that direction. Manual says about
checking by ear. The stethoscope is good thing but with this manifold ticking issue no one knows what will be their decision. Just only the big workshop can afford to have the full set of adjusting shims.
With your mileage, if car had a poor maintenance, I would assume you have the bigger clearance and your valves are tapping the first minute on the cold engine, but not more than it. Usually, with this problem the oil is becoming dirty much quickly and mileage is lowering. Though, the car is new for you and you can’t to compare.

[wikdslo]

Hold on a second, which dealership did you go and when?

I haven't been to any dealership to have it serviced.

Only found out that the car WAS serviced at Avante and apparently they have record of the Intake Manifold being replaced.

As for the ticking noise, seems to be more prominent when the motor is warmed up.

The hesitation seems to always be there, warm or cold.

[wikdslo]

I noticed that on my car also, Try grounding the throttle Body, I noticed a diffrence with it grounded, Runs alot smoother.

Will look into this.

Are you referring to just running a grounding wire to the throttle body?

[wikdslo]

Could this be to do with some bad engine mounts.
Particularly the rear engine mount?

[shuller1458]

Yes, but not the rear, the side mount on the passanger side has desighn flaw from mazda. I will make engine move alot. Just bring it to Mazda, tell them what problem you have and what it might be, they will charge you but it will be 100% correct diagnostic.

[wikdslo]

Yes, but not the rear, the side mount on the passanger side has desighn flaw from mazda. I will make engine move alot. Just bring it to Mazda, tell them what problem you have and what it might be, they will charge you but it will be 100% correct diagnostic.

I checked my passenger side mount out.
Looks like it's pretty dry and crusty. Poked my finger right through it?

Not sure if there is any way for me to check if the mount is toast or not.

[wikdslo]

Alright, so an Update:

Today i was looking at my Mass Air Flow Sensor (i think.. on the rubber boot, 2 screws holding it down).
I noticed both screws were somewhat loose and the sensor had some wiggle room to it.
Naturally I tightened it down.

After about 10 minutes of driving, the car started to buck a bit while launching and then threw up a CEL.
Checked and it's showing code P0103 - MAF or VAF high output

Here's a description of symptoms (includes engine sluggishness or loss of power)

http://www.obd-codes.com/p0103

Any ideas if I can clean it and how I would go about doing that?

[dereklandon]

Dirty MAF? Maybe get an MAF cleaner...
Or it could be the wires. There have been quite a few owners who have experienced some sort of disconnection.
http://www.mazda3forums.com/index.php?topic=64661.0

[sas]

MAF & IAT sensor pins location at harness side:
__------__
|E D C B A|
_________

Pin A +input (+12V)
Pin C signal output (~1-3 V)
Pin B ground input (0V)
Pins E & D – IAT sensor

This error speaks that output signal from MAF is higher then 4.9V.
The most possible reason, you don’t have the ground on pin B or there is bad
contact in connector.
There is another interesting fact. I see in one of the wiring diagrams that ground from MAF
is connecting with ground of the accelerator pedal sensor and then running to the ground point.

[sas]

Was trying to find in diagrams where they are connecting and where that ground point .
Without success.
Firstly, do not touch something, just remove the MAF connector and measure the resistance
between pin B of the harness and body of the car. The resistance has to be less then 1 Ohm.
To be more exact, 0 - 0.5 Ohm + resistance of wires of the ohmmeter. If the resistance is higher, then there is a grounding problem. If normal, then possibly it is just a bad contact in the connector. Maybe the problem was that the air was being sucked thru the MAF.

[shuller1458]

I checked my passenger side mount out.
Looks like it's pretty dry and crusty. Poked my finger right through it?

Not sure if there is any way for me to check if the mount is toast or not.

Then your mount is busted, they always do. They have OIL inside of them, like a baloon, rubber outside oil inside. they rip and oil leaks outs, the mount dries up and that's it, it doesn't hold much anymore. When baloon full oil bursts, nothing good happens.

[wikdslo]

Then your mount is busted, they always do. They have OIL inside of them, like a baloon, rubber outside oil inside. they rip and oil leaks outs, the mount dries up and that's it, it doesn't hold much anymore. When baloon full oil bursts, nothing good happens.


Shucks.. Well, I guess I'm in for a new one of those too then.
Here is a couple of pics of both my side mount and my rear mount.
Anyone care to comment on the rear mount? any way for me to tell if it's done?

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y25/wikdslo/Mazda/DSCF0135.jpg

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y25/wikdslo/Mazda/DSCF0132.jpg
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y25/wikdslo/Mazda/DSCF0131.jpg

[wikdslo]

Was trying to find in diagrams where they are connecting and where that ground point .
Without success.
Firstly, do not touch something, just remove the MAF connector and measure the resistance
between pin B of the harness and body of the car. The resistance has to be less then 1 Ohm.
To be more exact, 0 - 0.5 Ohm + resistance of wires of the ohmmeter. If the resistance is higher, then there is a grounding problem. If normal, then possibly it is just a bad contact in the connector. Maybe the problem was that the air was being sucked thru the MAF.

Ok, so Im outside checking the resistance and found taht the left wire (aqua) has about 50 ~ 51 ohms (set to 2000) on my multimeter and the second wire (black) shows 1 ohms (set to 2000).

Not exactly sure if that gives you what you were looking for?

[wikdslo]

Another bit of a mystery.
So for the two above mentioned wires, I pulled the cover to fuse panel and removed the harness end where it plugs in there.
I checked resistance on both ends of the wires (end to end) for the black and the aqua.

When I touch the black end to the aqua end, it shows a quick ohm reading (high number 1450ish) and then goes back to no reading as if there was nothing... But it will always have a quick reading like the contact was made but just bad.. is this a sign of something?

[wikdslo]

Ok.. So I think it's a wiring issue.
When I started up the car, it idled fine.
Pushed the wires down right where that set of wire comes out of the ribbed harness, and the motor nearly stalled out.

Looks like I have some surgery to do!

[sas]

When I touch the black end to the aqua end, it shows a quick ohm reading (high number 1450ish) and then goes back to no reading as if there was nothing...

This is speaking that you have a condenser in circuit, this condenser is being charged by
multimeter and showing conductivity ,when the condenser completely charged there is no conductivity. It’s normal for Green/Blue wire.


I think the best way to check is to connect the all back except the MAF connector. Connect the Black wire of MAF harness to the multimeter and other wire of multimeter to the body. Enable the audible mode and try to move harness.

There is the second variant. If your Green/Blue wire is shorting somewhere to another
positive wire.


I have finished my home work. Now can explain what you are seeking.
The MAF has an electronic circuit inside. Here is stabilizer and amplifier which
amplifying signal from sensor. The stabilizer is giving 5V to amplifier.
You can have more then 5V on output if only there is a loosed ground, faulty stabilizer
inside the MAF or the output wire receives this voltage from side.

[wikdslo]

I think the best way to check is to connect the all back except the MAF connector. Connect the Black wire of MAF harness to the multimeter and other wire of multimeter to the body. Enable the audible mode and try to move harness.

There is the second variant. If your Green/Blue wire is shorting somewhere to another
positive wire.


I have finished my home work. Now can explain what you are seeking.
The MAF has an electronic circuit inside. Here is stabilizer and amplifier which
amplifying signal from sensor. The stabilizer is giving 5V to amplifier.
You can have more then 5V on output if only there is a loosed ground, faulty stabilizer
inside the MAF or the output wire receives this voltage from side.

Your diagnosis was spot on sir.

I tested all of the wires on that harness for continuity to their endpoints on their respective harnesses, and the black wire was severed almost completely..

I cut about 6" of that wire just a bit after the MAF connector back into the harness and replaced it.
I checked that wire, and sure enough, it LITTERALLY pulled apart (the strands of wire).

After soldering in a new length of wire, I took it for a spin.
Oh dear god, this car has another 20hp at least, and the throttle response is incredible.

No more guessing games if my car is gonna rev the snot out of itself when I launch it, or if it's going to bog out and nearly stall.

Thanks so much for all the help, very much appreciated.

My car is now 10x more fun to drive!

Cheers

[sas]

I’m glad I was helpful. I like stories with the happy endings.
Now you have the real Mazda3.
What about the passenger side engine mount, I think it’s time to replace
it. It’s still holding by sidewalls horizontally but doesn’t hold the vertical loads.

[wikdslo]

I’m glad I was helpful. I like stories with the happy endings.
Now you have the real Mazda3.
What about the passenger side engine mount, I think it’s time to replace
it. It’s still holding by sidewalls horizontally but doesn’t hold the vertical loads.

Ha, yeah, I like it when things end well :)

Yup, working on that, just trying to read up and figure out what my best option is.
So many to choose from.
OEM
Street Unit
Top Performance
Medieval

Oh what to do!

[sas]

I can’t help here. I’m absolutely unfamiliar with that stuff.
The all I heard that the OEM are crappy and some people had problems
with Medieval mounts.
Here are people with the much bigger experience.

[shuller1458]

Glad that you solved the problem, big props to SAS.

Regarding engine mount: eventhough, I am a dealer and would like to sell you parts, do not buy mazda mount. it will most likely be busted again in 40K km. I don't know about aftermarket, but buy something good.

[wikdslo]

Glad that you solved the problem, big props to SAS.

Regarding engine mount: eventhough, I am a dealer and would like to sell you parts, do not buy mazda mount. it will most likely be busted again in 40K km. I don't know about aftermarket, but buy something good.

Much appreciate the honesty.
I was thinking of going aftermarket, but don't want too much vibration.
I know the medieval are said to make things very rigid and thus vibrationy.
However, I've heard the CS inserts are a nice medium for both.

Will post up my results if/when I get to that.

Thanks again folks!

[splitslim]

@wikdslo

Was this "bogging" happening every time on a cold engine as well?

I'm having a problem where when I start the car in the morning after sitting all night, first it starts up then i hear a click/bang, the rpm drops, then when I take off normally, it bogs/hesitates up to around 2-3k RPM. It will do this until the engine warms up a bit.

Sound like the same problem?

Mine is a 2k4 GT 2.3 5spd.

Thanks

[Dante]

my car bogs horribly now, exhaust fumes smell like gas and the gas consumption is pretty damn high. Gotta get it into mazda, what do you think that means :S Ive got a cold air intake.. i hope its not my MAF..

[wikdslo]

my car bogs horribly now, exhaust fumes smell like gas and the gas consumption is pretty damn high. Gotta get it into mazda, what do you think that means :S Ive got a cold air intake.. i hope its not my MAF..

For both of you guys, this is what you can do to tell if the HARNESS is your issue.

1. Turn on the car and let it idle.
2. If required, remove the plastic pice that goes over your intake boot, I believe this supplies cold air into your battery box?
3. Gently move the harness that connects to the MAF around and see if your idle changes.
-When I did this on my car, my car would nearly stall out.

If it DOES change the engines idle (higher/lower) you will likely notice it change quickly and drastically. As I mentioned my car would go from a steady 65x rpm idle to nearly stalling out on it's own.

What was happening in MY case, and could very well be the same for you specifically Dante, is that the ground wire was nearly severed inside the sheathing (nothing you could see visually) and as a result, the MAF was outputting higher voltage signals than it should, which causes the computer to lean/richen the air/fuel mix.

This can cause poor gas mileage, hesitation, engine bogging, loss of overall power, rough idle.

I changed about 6 inches of wire, and it fixed up everything.

If you read through my posts, I was fairly detailed about all of this. I generally tend to be thorough so when the next person comes along (ie. you folks) you will be able to read through it all step by step and follow what I did to find your resolution.

If you're in/aroun Scarborough, hit me up with a PM and you can swing by so we can take a look at it. I'll be more than happy to help you fix it if it's a wiring issue.

Cheers.

[wikdslo]

@wikdslo

Was this "bogging" happening every time on a cold engine as well?

I'm having a problem where when I start the car in the morning after sitting all night, first it starts up then i hear a click/bang, the rpm drops, then when I take off normally, it bogs/hesitates up to around 2-3k RPM. It will do this until the engine warms up a bit.

Sound like the same problem?

Mine is a 2k4 GT 2.3 5spd.

Thanks

Mine was happening cold or warm, and never really heard any click/bang, but it was causing hestiation up to around the 2-3k RPM range for sure. After that range, it generally tended to smooth out.

But there was a noticeable power gain since I fixed it.
I don't know if/when it LOST that power, as I bought the car used about a month and a half ago, and only noticed it once i got back from travelling for a month.

[sas]

first it starts up then i hear a click/bang, the rpm drops

It’s hard to say what is it from description. It’s unclear what the character of this “click/bang”,when exactly it’s happening and how long it lasts. Exact rpm are very important thing too.


..

I remember you complained about the bad gas mileage a long time ago, and until now,
you don’t have the CEL. So far , nothing points to the emission problem. It could to be
issue of the control system, like a badly working oxygen sensor or not calibrated MAF,
but this can be determined only by thorough diagnosis. Until now the computer isn’t
registering impossibility to manage by process.
It means that you have a normal level of oxygen in the exhaust gases and amount of injected fuel never exceeded preprogrammed criteria.
If you have a gas smell, I can suppose that isn’t all fuel burning. The first, what comes to head is the thought about injectors.
There are playing so many things that this is remaining only as a supposition.

[Dante]

Hmm, Well i did the plugs and that helped power and gas mileage a ton but i still have hesitation from 2-3K. Im going to check the MAF as suggested , If anything else I would assume its covered under warranty. I had a CEL but thats for a bad catalytic converter from all the carbon buildup on this motor that burns oil.. Well used to.. now its switched to synthetic and had an engine flush.. that cleared out quite well ..

[cinder88]

check - or have your mechanic check your engine mounts.....

the 04-05 are prone to failure - and the bucking is the aging mounts.