Don't taz me bro! the senior edition

[SirWanker]

http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/31202935/ Great-grandma dared cop to Tase her, so he did....and yes she did ask for it.

[FoXy]

WOW.... I don't get why she was being so beligerant in the first place... :loco

[Cardinal Fang]

Regardless this was a 72 year old women who at best is guilty of being an :AH. She posed no danger to the cop. As a matter of fact he was able to push her around quite easily given his size. Tasers were designed to give cops a non-lethal manner to subdue people who pose a threat to police and themselves. He was annoyed and rather than turn her around by the scruf of the shirt and hand cuff her he decided to take her up on the offer. If she started fighting back and hitting the officer then I have no issue with him stepping back and nailing her.

More and more I think police are grabbing their tasers as a first alternative to a situation rather than a last alternative.

[Soyabean]

Regardless this was a 72 year old women who at best is guilty of being an :AH. She posed no danger to the cop. As a matter of fact he was able to push her around quite easily given his size. Tasers were designed to give cops a non-lethal manner to subdue people who pose a threat to police and themselves. He was annoyed and rather than turn her around by the scruf of the shirt and hand cuff her he decided to take her up on the offer. If she started fighting back and hitting the officer then I have no issue with him stepping back and nailing her.

More and more I think police are grabbing their tasers as a first alternative to a situation rather than a last alternative.

not really, its hard to grab her by her shirt especially that age. He gave her plenty of warning. Although he could of forcefully grabbed her, he could of hurt her by using too much force since she is resisting. By tasing her he was on the ground and it made the arrest more easily.

I do agree that cops are abusing their powers but sometimes its citizens who choose not to cooperate who make the situation more difficult

[Cardinal Fang]

not really, its hard to grab her by her shirt especially that age. He gave her plenty of warning. Although he could of forcefully grabbed her, he could of hurt her by using too much force since she is resisting.

As opposed to tasering her and risking the onset of a heart attack if she had a pre-existing heart condition? The cop couldn't know this but it's safe to assume that a 72 year old isn't exactly without health issues. So why on earth would he risk her life over a dare?



By tasing her he was on the ground and it made the arrest more easily.

And here is the problem in a nutshell. Rather than get in there and get their hands dirty like they did in the old days the new bread of cop would rather the easy way out. Even if it means putting other people in danger.

I say again. When tasers were invented it was to assist police in making arrests where people were so violent that they resisted to the point that police actual shot and killed them. Someone came up with the taser to prevent needless deaths in these situation. The problem is that they are not using tasers for exceptional condtions but rather for the most common place situations.



I do agree that cops are abusing their powers but sometimes its citizens who choose not to cooperate who make the situation more difficult

Absolutely...but what is the penalty for that? The reaction should be in proportion to the event. Let's be serious for a minute here. I've met some mouthy seniors in my time but I certainly don't wish a 72 year old women be tasered because she was being a bitch and dared the cop to.

[SirWanker]

I see it this way:

Driving 60 in a 45. That's 15 mph over. Now, maybe she'd set cruise control for 5 over and was going down a long hill around a blind turn and didn't have the time or couldn't be bothered to use her brakes (http://episteme.arstechnica.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif), but really, that's just asking for it. Failure in decision making #1

She gets pulled over, the cop writes her the ticket. She can either sign it and be on her way, or refuse and get arrested. She goes with "refuse and get arrested", to the point of telling the officer to just arrest her because she won't sign it. Failure in decision making #2

After escalating things to the point where peacefully getting arrested is the best possible outcome, she then decides that's not enough, and instead of cutting her losses at this point, she decides to resist arrest. She is then given the option (once again) of compliance or being hit with a taser and then arrested. She continues to resist, and even dares the officer to use the taser. Failure in decision making #3

Then, after (predictably) being tasered, cuffed and arrested, she decides that wasn't enough and goes to the local news media about it in an attempt (presumably) to 'get back' at the officer who pulled her over. Failure in decision making #4

As if that weren't enough, she then lies on camera about the entire incident. Failure in decision making #5

It seems as though this woman, in all of her 72 years, never once learned how to make an intelligent decision, or take responsibility for any of her own actions.

That alone is disturbing enough.

This was not some out of control, hair-trigger power tripping cop looking to start up an elderly beat-down. This woman essentially dragged this situation - kicking and screaming - to its ultimate conclusion.

[Nick]

this kind of "resistance" did not require the use of a taser, he could have simply arrested her without using any kind of excessive force (if arresting was even necessary for a traffic violation). i'm not trying to argue with anyone here, i could see the potential for the officer to act in a more respectable and professional manner to have a smoother encounter. the way he ended up treating her was if she had committed a robbery.

[RedRaptor]

Hahaha...she deserved every bit of that. Dumb arse.

[mazdabetty]

OH MY GOD......... I couldn't finish it.... that was REALLY upsetting to watch.... that cop is totally on a power trip, Fang I completely agree with you... things were run just fine for hundreds of years, the taser is supposed to be a last resort or when an officer's life is ACTUALLY in danger... I hope he gets suspended. Better yet fined and shunned by his friends and family for doing something so horrible... She was just being a little difficult, he could have managed. He also could have just let her back in the car there was no reason to shove her like that (did it to get her out of traffic my a$$)... what a dick!!!!!!!!!!!!

[RedRaptor]

Power trip? How so? He only warned her like 10 times! Resisting arrest is a crime...doesn't matter if you are 18 or 72. Laws are there for a reason.

[mazdabetty]

Yahhh maybe you're right, not a power trip.... maybe a WEENIE afraid for his life because a 72 year old woman tried to talk back to him :chuckle Please I'm SURE he's dealt with much worse. She was far from a weapon-bearing criminal deserving of an electric shock!!!! lol

Tasers are there for a reason too.... and he did not use it appropriately. As stated, it's to be used for situations where their life is at risk. He was hardly at risk, he should not have used it. He could have called for backup if he couldn't handle the situation on his own. He could have used force and arrested her, if needed. He also could have let her take off and charged her even more for that afterward.... there are a million other ways he could have handled it.

I'm surprised people would argue with that!!!!! :whoa

[mazdabetty]

SIGH, see, here's the other reason I'm bothered as to why someone would question why this is so wrong... I know you say that it doesn't matter if you are 18 or 72, but in this situation it does matter because she is CLEARLY the weaker one, she has no endurance so she sure as hell couldn't have run away, she never laid her hands on him (at least not in the parts that I saw)... and he STILL pussied out and used the taser.

It hits home because I have an 84 year old, tiny 4-foot-something, GRUMPY AS HELL, but hilariously cute Polish grandmother back home, and she is SOOOO friggin stubborn that somehow I'd be able to see her getting mad at a police officer (maybe not to that extent) because she's old and senile... like most old people!!! lol..

But it upsets me to think if an authority figure ever did that to her JUST because she wasn't cooperating, it would kill me... I would personally want to hunt down the cop and kill him myself. I dunno, maybe think about that, if you disagree and think that your own grandparent would deserve to be tasered thennnnnnnn I have no comment.

[Thrizzl3]

that woman needs to get laid..grouchy old lady:flaming

[Cardinal Fang]

*Proceeds to taser phil05gx*

[Thrizzl3]

*Proceeds to taser phil05gx*

lol what did i say?

[RedRaptor]

Mazdabetty,

We are all quick to judge other people's actions...yet you're not the one on a busy highway with cars zooming by at 60+mph while this grumpy old lady who is RESISTING ARREST is confronting you with attitude.

Get real! There is no way for this officer to look good. Would you prefer that he tackles her to the ground, pounding her FACE first into the pavement? Or risk her going crazy and running onto the busy highway? Would he look any better then? I think tasering her is the best option in this scenario...no confrontation...the officer is safe and SHE is safe.

It doesn't MATTER if you are old! Laws are there for a reason! Why should the law change because of a person's age?

She broke the law...and officers have protocols on how to handle that.

Just because you are old, senile and grumpy, it DOESN'T give you the right to tell an officer to "F-off".

[Cardinal Fang]

According to International Association of Chiefs of Police (IACP) and the Police Executive Research Forum (PERF) in the United States.

"The weapons should be used only on people (1) actively resisting or exhibiting active aggression or (2) at risk of harming themselves or others, according to PERF. And the fact that a subject is fleeing should not be the sole justification for police to use the weapons.

The weapons should not be used:
1. on passive subjects;
2. on pregnant women, elderly persons, young children, or visibly frail individuals (except under exigent circumstances);
3. on handcuffed individuals (unless they are actively resisting or exhibiting active aggression or at risk of harming themselves or anyone else);
4. on anyone located where a fall may cause substantial injury or death (except under exigent circumstances);
5. on anyone in physical control of a moving vehicle, including cars, trucks, motorcycles, ATVs, bicycles, and scooters, (except under exigent circumstances); or
6. in any area known to contain combustible or flammable liquids or substance.

You read everyday in the newspaper about people being belligerent to the police by talking back and telling them off. How many of those do you here about the police tasering them? I would think peeper spray would have been a better option in this case.

Yes I agree she was a bitch I just don't think the punishment for being a bitch is to be tasered. The punishment for being a bitch should be time served for resisting arrest, failing to comply and being a common nuisance.

[ElegantGremlin]

According to International Association of Chiefs of Police (IACP) and the Police Executive Research Forum (PERF) in the United States.

"The weapons should be used only on people (1) actively resisting or exhibiting active aggression or (2) at risk of harming themselves or others, according to PERF. And the fact that a subject is fleeing should not be the sole justification for police to use the weapons.

The weapons should not be used:
1. on passive subjects;
2. on pregnant women, elderly persons, young children, or visibly frail individuals (except under exigent circumstances);
3. on handcuffed individuals (unless they are actively resisting or exhibiting active aggression or at risk of harming themselves or anyone else);
4. on anyone located where a fall may cause substantial injury or death (except under exigent circumstances);
5. on anyone in physical control of a moving vehicle, including cars, trucks, motorcycles, ATVs, bicycles, and scooters, (except under exigent circumstances); or
6. in any area known to contain combustible or flammable liquids or substance.

But she was actively resisting and at risk of harming herself (walking into traffic to get back to her vehicle).

Besides, this isn't one of those right or wrong things. It's a morally grey area. As RedRaptor said, there was probably no way to subdue her without looking bad, even though she escalated it.

[ZeroChalk]

If you continue to ignore and undermine the police's authority... what are you going to expect to happen? When you underestimate the scenario, i.e. because she's an old lady, and lower your guard that's when you get injured or killed.

She was completely confrontational. She deserved it.

[Cardinal Fang]

But she was actively resisting and at risk of harming herself (walking into traffic to get back to her vehicle).

Look at the video again at the 1:20 mark. When she tries to walk around the cop back to her he grabs her and quite easily throws her back without any problem. This guy was more than capable of subduing her. To think a guy that size would be affraid of a 72 year old women that he has to taser her is funny to me.

I would hope the guys back at the station would rib him over the fact that he was so afraid of a 72 year old that he has to electrocute her. :)



Besides, this isn't one of those right or wrong things. It's a morally grey area. As RedRaptor said, there was probably no way to subdue her without looking bad, even though she escalated it.

I totally agree. Either way you look bad. But I'd have to think the optics of manhandling a women vs. tasering her is far better.

[RallyPlaya]

People just need to learn how to talk to Cops, I Got out of a 95 in a 60 with absolutely Nothing. I was just really calm and talked to the Cop nicely, apologized for my actions admitted my mistake. Its all about how you present yourself, this older lady did a really bad job with that

[mazdabetty]

Mazdabetty,

We are all quick to judge other people's actions...yet you're not the one on a busy highway with cars zooming by at 60+mph while this grumpy old lady who is RESISTING ARREST is confronting you with attitude.

Get real! There is no way for this officer to look good. Would you prefer that he tackles her to the ground, pounding her FACE first into the pavement? Or risk her going crazy and running onto the busy highway? Would he look any better then? I think tasering her is the best option in this scenario...no confrontation...the officer is safe and SHE is safe.

It doesn't MATTER if you are old! Laws are there for a reason! Why should the law change because of a person's age?

She broke the law...and officers have protocols on how to handle that.

Just because you are old, senile and grumpy, it DOESN'T give you the right to tell an officer to "F-off".

Get real? I'm being very real here. When did I say that he should have let her break the law? Or that the laws should change for elderly people? Ummmmmm don't think I did. Since when did it become a "law" to taser someone because they were being difficult? My point was, due to the fact that she was elderly and much weaker than him, he could have EASILY and calmly took firm hold of her wrist and arrested her, that's what he was trained to do... no need to "pound her face first into the ground", let alone taser her.

I'm done arguing with you, this will go nowhere. Fang has listed everything else that needed to be said in regards to your comment.

[ElegantGremlin]

he could have EASILY and calmly took firm hold of her wrist and arrested her

Video at 1:11. He tries that and she pulls away. I believe any physical contact would've resulted in a struggle. And you'd probably also be against him if he took her to the ground.

[Scottobot]

Video at 1:11. He tries that and she pulls away. I believe any physical contact would've resulted in a struggle. And you'd probably also be against him if he took her to the ground.

+1

While it seems to be extreme and horribly lame to taze her, if I were the cop I'd be worried about injuring her in a struggle. I'd wager she was a whole lot more co-operative after that jolt.
But I really disagree that the guy was on a power trip (???). Seems to me he would have preferred to just give her a ticket and everyone's on their way.

[RallyPlaya]

Get real? I'm being very real here. When did I say that he should have let her break the law? Or that the laws should change for elderly people? Ummmmmm don't think I did. Since when did it become a "law" to taser someone because they were being difficult? My point was, due to the fact that she was elderly and much weaker than him, he could have EASILY and calmly took firm hold of her wrist and arrested her, that's what he was trained to do... no need to "pound her face first into the ground", let alone taser her.

I'm done arguing with you, this will go nowhere. Fang has listed everything else that needed to be said in regards to your comment.

I Clearly understand your viewpoint, but my in my opinion i belived the elderly lady was implying that by her being 72 the Cop couldnt arrest her by force. Clearly the Law is imposed on you whether you are 16 or 80 years old... The elderly lady should just move on with her life, causing ,media attention will do nothing for her, I take the Cop's side on this instance, the lady was being incredibly difficult, if i told a cop to F-off and dared him to tase me, im pretty sure i know whats coming

[Zoom Zoom Boy]

He should have just pulled out his pistol and shot the bitch in the head. End of story.











































....and yes, I am joking. Calm down people...:gone

This officer was twice her size and not under physical threat or harm. There was absolutely no reason he needed to taze her. He simply should have used his police training to grab her, subdue her forcefully, put handcuff's on her and take her away. Tazing her is ludicrous at best.

[ElegantGremlin]

This officer was twice her size and not under physical threat or harm. There was absolutely no reason he needed to taze her. He simply should have used his police training to grab her, subdue her forcefully, put handcuff's on her and take her away. Tazing her is ludicrous at best.

But than we're having this same argument, except people would be complaining that he didn't need to use force to subdue an old lady despite the fact that she was resisting.

[Zoom Zoom Boy]

But than we're having this same argument, except people would be complaining that he didn't need to use force to subdue an old lady despite the fact that she was resisting.

I wouldn't be arguing it. She is resisting arrest and being belligerant. She is subject to the law like anyone else. My point is that police are trained on how to subdue people acting like this. This officer should have utilized that training and should have very easily been able to subdue this woman with a minimum of effort and injury to herself.

He used very poor judgement in tazing her. Apart from it being unnecessary in this case, she is still a 72 year old woman of 'unknown' health condition to the officer. If her heart was weak, he could have easily killed her using the tazer. He should have been able to make that judgement call and react accordingly. It is the same reason they carry guns. When to use them, is part procedure and part judgement on the officer's part. Using a tazer is no different.

That is my argument, not whether the woman should have been subdued and arrested, but the way she was subdued...In this case, very, very poorly.

I can guarantee you that this would not have made headlines if he just used force and overpowered her. It made headlines cause the idiot tasered her...and the media is using the ludicrous nature of this video as a great story.

[ElegantGremlin]

I wouldn't be arguing it. She is resisting arrest and being belligerant. She is subject to the law like anyone else. My point is that police are trained on how to subdue people acting like this. This officer should have utilized that training and should have very easily been able to subdue this woman with a minimum of effort and injury to herself.

He used very poor judgement in tazing her. Apart from it being unnecessary in this case, she is still a 72 year old woman of 'unknown' health condition to the officer. If her heart was weak, he could have easily killed her using the tazer. He should have been able to make that judgement call and react accordingly. It is the same reason they carry guns. When to use them, is part procedure and part judgement on the officer's part. Using a tazer is no different.

That is my argument, not whether the woman should have been subdued and arrested, but the way she was subdued...In this case, very, very poorly.

I can guarantee you that this would not have made headlines if he just used force and overpowered her. It made headlines cause the idiot tasered her...and the media is using the ludicrous nature of this video as a great story.

It wouldn't have made headlines at all if the old lady hadn't gone to the media claiming she was mistreated, something she couldn't done no matter how she was subdued.

And i disagree with you. It can't be described as 'very very poorly' when the suspect was subdued and no one was injured. To say that she could have had a heart attack or that he could have just used force is assuming. She could have swung at him when he tried to subdue her with force. She could have been carrying a weapon. She could have just signed the ticket when she was asked to!

She instigated and escalated the situation and he reacted based on his best judgement to end the situation with the least injuries.

Edit: And I'm not saying you would argue but others would.

[Cardinal Fang]

To say that she could have had a heart attack or that he could have just used force is assuming. She could have swung at him when he tried to subdue her with force. She could have been carrying a weapon.

Ok so now who's assuming? :chuckle

I will give you guys this point though. Every time I rewatch the video to refute more of your points I have to bite my tongue and resist punching the monitor. Man does this women piss me off when she open's her mouth.

[Zoom Zoom Boy]

It wouldn't have made headlines at all if the old lady hadn't gone to the media claiming she was mistreated, something she couldn't done no matter how she was subdued.

And i disagree with you. It can't be described as 'very very poorly' when the suspect was subdued and no one was injured. To say that she could have had a heart attack or that he could have just used force is assuming. She could have swung at him when he tried to subdue her with force. She could have been carrying a weapon. She could have just signed the ticket when she was asked to!

She instigated and escalated the situation and he reacted based on his best judgement to end the situation with the least injuries.

Edit: And I'm not saying you would argue but others would.

You're entitled to disagree. No issue there.

However, let's say the cop uses good judgement and his training and subdues the woman without the tazer. She then goes to the media and makes a stink of it. Do you think this gets any play time? I don't. Happens all the time, who cares. This got play time cause a cop tazed an old woman he could easily have subdued. It is ridiculous and the media is using that part of it to sensationalize it.

Yup, she could easily have had a weapon. Police use that argument too when they shoot people. Still doesn't mean it was the best use of judgement given the threat and circumstance. If he didn't have a tazer, should he have popped a cap in her skull because she 'could' have had a weapon and he felt he was at risk? Same argument really...

Police are trained to deal with these situations and do an evaluation of the situation and also the inherent risk to both themselves and the offender with the application of force chosen. They are also trained in the administration of said non-lethal force that includes methods of subduing an offender in to incapacitate them with minimal injury to the offender. He should have taken into account the woman's age, physical condition, liklihood of carrying a weapon, liklihood that she could actually harm him with 72 year old reflexes and muscle power etc. al. He is trained to do all of this and it scares me that such an :AH, is carrying a gun too when he clearly demonstrated such a total lack of judgment. Tazers can kill people and someone of that woman's age would be in a much higher risk category. Tazers are not meant to be used as a substitute where physical subduing is still an option. They are still an 'extreme measure' option and I agree with Fang that too many cops are using them too readily these days.

The cop did not show reasonable use of judgement considering the circumstances.

And yes, I agree, she initiated and escalated the situation. No dispute. But the option of using a tazer was not the option that could have potentially resulted in the least injuries and was not the appropriate option.

[mazdabetty]

Video at 1:11. He tries that and she pulls away. I believe any physical contact would've resulted in a struggle. And you'd probably also be against him if he took her to the ground.

hahahahha, you're saying cuz she pulled away once he thought to himself... ohhhhhhhh shite.... I'll NEVER be able to take this one down..... *sigh* taser it is. :chuckle



Police are trained to deal with these situations and do an evaluation of the situation and also the inherent risk to both themselves and the offender with the application of force chosen. They are also trained in the administration of said non-lethal force that includes methods of subduing an offender in to incapacitate them with minimal injury to the offender.

Eeeeeeexactly...


Blown away at how black and white this issue is! :whoa

ElegantGremlin I don't think anyone is saying she was in the right, whatsoever... if that is what you're arguing. All that's being said is it could have been handled more appropriately using proper force, as per their training, as mentioned above.

Cops can't just go around tasering whoever they please just because they encounter someone being "difficult". If that were the case anyone could apply to be a cop if all it takes is learning how to use a taser... there wouldn't be any need for the physical and mental training they go through to avoid using weapons until it's up to the last second and there's a life threatening situation facing them, where they would have no other choice other than to use....... THE TASER!!!!!!

Geeze if you're right, and I were a cop I guess I would be completely justified to use a taser on you cuz you're being so difficult!!! :chuckle jk

[RedRaptor]

Meh. Cry me a river Mazdabetty.

At the end of the day, you're just a armchair cop.

You would probably feel different after you've gone through a thousand of those traffic stops where things aren't so routine. Your guard is up when you're on patrol, not sitting in front of a computer screen thinking with all the time in the world.

Tired of your whining and don't want to argue with you either.

Let's just say, we're on different ends of the table here.

[ElegantGremlin]

hahahahha, you're saying cuz she pulled away once he thought to himself... ohhhhhhhh shite.... I'll NEVER be able to take this one down..... *sigh* taser it is. :chuckle




Eeeeeeexactly...


Blown away at how black and white this issue is! :whoa

ElegantGremlin I don't think anyone is saying she was in the right, whatsoever... if that is what you're arguing. All that's being said is it could have been handled more appropriately using proper force, as per their training, as mentioned above.

Cops can't just go around tasering whoever they please just because they encounter someone being "difficult". If that were the case anyone could apply to be a cop if all it takes is learning how to use a taser... there wouldn't be any need for the physical and mental training they go through to avoid using weapons until it's up to the last second and there's a life threatening situation facing them, where they would have no other choice other than to use....... THE TASER!!!!!!

Geeze if you're right, and I were a cop I guess I would be completely justified to use a taser on you cuz you're being so difficult!!! :chuckle jk

I don't think anyone believes she was in the right, I'm just saying he's not as in the wrong as everyone is saying.

Her pulling away doesn't say that he can't take her, it just says that she's going to struggle. If she's going to struggle, he's going to need to get physical to take her down therefore increasing the chances that one of them is going to get injured. All I'm trying to get across is that subduing her wouldn't be as simple as grabbing her and cuffing her. He attempts to detain her, she starts to struggle and they end up in the road and get hit. That is much worse than being tasered.

And Zoom Zoom Boy, if he didn't have a taser and he did shoot her, I wouldn't condone it. I also don't see the link between the use of a non-lethal taser (in most instances) and a lethal gun. I don't think he believed at all that she had a weapon but I was just illustrating that there could have been a lot of different things that could have happened if he had taken other measures. Hindsight is 20/20.

[Cardinal Fang]

Without hindsight we would never be able to perfect anything or learn for that matter.

[Zoom Zoom Boy]

I wonder how a British cop would have handled the situation? No taser, no gun... Perhaps he/she would have utilized their training and his/her brains. Both things that the officer in the video seems to lack in wholehearted abundance.

[towelsnap]

lol .... one phrase comes to mind.... "ask you you shale recieve"

[ElegantGremlin]

I wonder how a British cop would have handled the situation? No taser, no gun... Perhaps he/she would have utilized their training and his/her brains. Both things that the officer in the video seems to lack in wholehearted abundance.

Or their billy club? :chuckle

[mazdabetty]

To the The Benny Hill Show song????? ahhahahahahhha

[RedRaptor]

MazdaBetty,

Thanks for the PM and calling me an asshat.

I guess some people really take this internet arguing stuff very seriously.

btw I love you too.

[mazdabetty]

lol, only on Thursdays, Rob.

muah :)

[RedRaptor]

lol, only on Thursdays, Rob.

muah :)

Your the best! :)

[wtom]

Plain and simple, when a cop tells you to do something, not once, not twice ... you better do it.


Buttttttttt ... that granny's got balls LOL

http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i49/killerkitty5179/Fw_MotivationalPosteroftheDay1.jpg