60Hz vs. 120Hz

[Reegs]

Hey folks,

Looking at getting a new TV, specifically the Sony KDL46V5100 (46" LCD)

This is a 120Hz LCD TV. You can save by getting a 60Hz TV. What do you guys think? I've heard 120Hz is better for sports and stuff. I'm sure 60Hz looks good too. Just wondering if its worth the extra money. A friend of mine can get me the model I specified for $1150 plus tax. I'd appreciate any input.

Thanks.

[rktsci]

What i've been told is that 120 Hz is better than 60 Hz as it is a multiple of 24. The reason this is important is that to be full HD, you are running 1080P at 24 fps which means that your refresh rate is in sync with the image.

I'm just repeating what I've been told so I can't attest to the validity of this!

[WingZero_]

120Hz is way better tha 60Hz as you are getting into true motion or whatever you tv manufacturer is calling it. But at the same time they have tvs with 240, and lg is working on a 480.

But just remember 120Hz is a sweet tv.

[chinsterr]

If you play video games (ps3 or xbox) go with the 120HZ . You will get "ghosting" on the 60hz for sure.

[froggy]

This is a lot of hype, just like with mega pixels in camera's. The human eye can only discern up to about 60 images/second anyway or (60 Hz). Going a little bit higher than that say like 75 Hz or say like many monitors is more than enough to be safe from blurs or shadows. I haven't been in the market for a tv in a while so I don't know if they have 75 Hz tv's or not, or any other intervals between 60 and 120 Hz. Even 120 Hz is double what is adequate anything more is just numbers hype, unless of course they are making tvs for insects, whose eyes can discern in some cases up to 120+ Hz

[JashiK]

i can only tell the difference between 60hz and 120hz when they are next to each other showing the same picture. 120hz looks a lot better.

[jonjon72]

my first LCD was running at 60hz and was replaced with a 120hz. Huge difference. Yesterday I picked up the LG LED running at 240hz. OMG. so worth it. Movies and games are so smooth.

[WingZero_]

If you play video games (ps3 or xbox) go with the 120HZ . You will get "ghosting" on the 60hz for sure.


Depends on the TV i guess. Mine is 60Hz, never had any PS3 mishaps.

[chinsterr]

Depends on the TV i guess. Mine is 60Hz, never had any PS3 mishaps.

Play first-person shooter games much ?

CODMW 2 - Underpass map .... when it starts to rain I get ghosting all over.

[MistaChin]

Play first-person shooter games much ?

CODMW 2 - Underpass map .... when it starts to rain I get ghosting all over.

+1

absolutely disgusting. I'm in need of a serious upgrade. And where the hell does jonjon get all his money from?

[BiG-ED]

my first LCD was running at 60hz and was replaced with a 120hz. Huge difference. Yesterday I picked up the LG LED running at 240hz. OMG. so worth it. Movies and games are so smooth.

jealous
that LED tv is gorgeous.
that plus NFL sunday ticket HD = pure heaven

[jonjon72]

+1

absolutely disgusting. I'm in need of a serious upgrade. And where the hell does jonjon get all his money from?


Manwhoring is tough work! :chuckle


Watch a movie like the Dark Knight or the new Star Trek for example to see the difference. I never expected it to be so much of a difference.

[towelsnap]

i can only tell the difference between 60hz and 120hz when they are next to each other showing the same picture. 120hz looks a lot better.

true, very little but I do see a slight difference with fast images on the screen (usually when the demo them with a blueray lmao :chuckle) But ya I'm in the market aswell I'll probably go with a 120hz... (ps wait till boxing day)

[ZeroChalk]

I bought a new tv recently.. you should check out TVs that integrate Yahoo Widgets, and other Internet aps. It's a really neat (clean) feature and adds another dimension to the TV.

[condor888000]

If you play video games (ps3 or xbox) go with the 120HZ . You will get "ghosting" on the 60hz for sure.

I get none, no matter what level I play on MW2. I notice a small issue when watching hockey in HD, but that's it.

[towelsnap]

or you could go 600hz lol on a plasma lol


http://www.bestbuy.ca/catalog/proddetail.asp?sku_id=0926HDS0010122395&catid=28399&logon=&langid=EN

[bluntman]

I bought a new tv recently.. you should check out TVs that integrate Yahoo Widgets, and other Internet aps. It's a really neat (clean) feature and adds another dimension to the TV.

I have those on my XBR9, I don't use them. If they integrate the ability to rent/stream high definition movies directly to your TV that would great, but weather, stocks and Facebook widgets are just a waste of time.

The difference between a 60Hz panel (my previous XBR3) and a 120Hz panel is much more dramatic than the difference between a 120Hz panel and a 240Hz panel (my current XBR9).

[ZeroChalk]

^ I dunno maybe I'm still in the honeymoon stage.. but I kinda like checking out youtube, weather, and those other stuff while I'm watching TV.

[Fobio]

for some reason, stuff I see on 120Hz TV looks to be "too smooth" (I know there's no such thing as too smooth or too rich)...it sometimes makes the quality of movies look like that of the soap operas' broadcast...I'm sure there's a technical explanation to what I'm saying, but I don't know what it is.

[Darkfrosty7]

i say 120hz your eyes can't see anything past 120hz anyway so even if they do come out with a new tv that has more (dunno why they would) you won't need to get it :) 120hz ftw

[kLuMzi]

I'll trade my 60Hz for a 120Hz anyday..

60Hz is old school lol
get 120Hz, you won't regret it.. plus they're cheap now!

[WingZero_]

Play first-person shooter games much ?

CODMW 2 - Underpass map .... when it starts to rain I get ghosting all over.

Not codmw2, but resistance 2 and uncharted 2 (well this 3rd person). Wipeout HD is stupid high bitrate and fast as hell, no ghosting. Oh and no ghosting off the Mag beta

[Reegs]

Man, thanks a lot for all your opinions everyone. Seems like the 120Hz is worth it. Looks like I'm going to go for the 46" 120Hz model.

We'll see what happens....Will keep you all posted!

Thanks again

[MajesticBlueNTO]

for some reason, stuff I see on 120Hz TV looks to be "too smooth" (I know there's no such thing as too smooth or too rich)...it sometimes makes the quality of movies look like that of the soap operas' broadcast...I'm sure there's a technical explanation to what I'm saying, but I don't know what it is.

it's the interpolation algorithms (i.e. AutoMotion Plus, MotionFlow) that make the 120Hz video displayed look like it was filmed with handheld camcorder. this is why you hear people say "the video almost looks fake"

the interpolation works well for fast moving images like in sports or video games (but only up to the point where the processor isn't over-taxed)...for other things such as tv shows or movies, the interpolation you can turn off

120Hz, with no interpolation, is beneficial for 1080p/24 blu-ray movies because 120 is divisible by 24 and the tv is able to do a straight 5:5 pulldown...in this case, there won't be any "judder" like in a 60Hz tv that has to do a 3:2 pulldown in a movie filmed in 24fps.

[Fobio]

Thanks!

[laksman91]

Sweet explanation NTO!

[Reegs]

Sweet explanation NTO!

+1

[mazda lover]

do a search on this forum the subject has been discussed before on the forum.
http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/

[mazda lover]

my first LCD was running at 60hz and was replaced with a 120hz. Huge difference. Yesterday I picked up the LG LED running at 240hz. OMG. so worth it. Movies and games are so smooth.

Have to agree, the LCD with the LED back light is well as kids say is awesome. Saw the LG and Samsung at Best Buy. Save your money and wait for the price to come down and buy one, I want 50" or more screen size, thats what I am doing. Panasonic will be coming out with one in January and I am sure Sony will at some point. Ask your buddy if can get a good price on the LCD with LED

[Fobio]

Have to agree, the LCD with the LED back light is well as kids say is awesome. Saw the LG and Samsung at Best Buy. Save your money and wait for the price to come down and buy one, I want 50" or more screen size, thats what I am doing. Panasonic will be coming out with one in January and I am sure Sony will at some point. Ask your buddy if can get a good price on the LCD with LED

aren't the new wave of panasonic's supposed to be Kuro-busting goodness at <$3000? :)

[jonjon72]

Have to agree, the LCD with the LED back light is well as kids say is awesome. Saw the LG and Samsung at Best Buy. Save your money and wait for the price to come down and buy one, I want 50" or more screen size, thats what I am doing. Panasonic will be coming out with one in January and I am sure Sony will at some point. Ask your buddy if can get a good price on the LCD with LED



Contact Malfunktion (Josh). He works at Future Shop.

I picked mine up at Best Buy around the corner from my place. I had some certificates, a $100 off coupon and bought a laptop and SLR on weekend so they gave me an awesome deal. Plus they were the only one that had the LED I wanted in stock. Everyone else would have had to place an order. I was too impatient to wait! LOL

If anyone wants to check it out themself, they are more than welcome to come over some time!

[mazda lover]

Contact Malfunktion (Josh). He works at Future Shop.

I picked mine up at Best Buy around the corner from my place. I had some certificates, a $100 off coupon and bought a laptop and SLR on weekend so they gave me an awesome deal. Plus they were the only one that had the LED I wanted in stock. Everyone else would have had to place an order. I was too impatient to wait! LOL

If anyone wants to check it out themself, they are more than welcome to come over some time!

where are you?
some discussion on the LED
http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=108035

[mazda lover]

some discussion 120 vs 240 HZ

http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=115988

[jonjon72]

where are you?
some discussion on the LED
http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=108035


I am in Richmond Hill. Yonge & 7.

I think it is better to see the quality in someone's home. Electronic store setups are usually set up with the best video and cables available. Better to see some movies, games and digital box set up running.

Thanks for the links

[Fobio]

I would go back to plasma for these Panasonics...

http://gizmodo.com/5323153/panasonic-tc+p54v10-reviewed-worthy-successor-to-pioneer-kuro



http://cache.gawker.com/assets/images/4/2009/07/504x_PanasonicPlasmaV10_01.jpg

When the lauded Pioneer Kuro plasmas went off-air in May, many mourned the loss of what was arguably one of the world's best HDTVs. With the launch of the Panasonic TC-P54V10 plasma, however, a worthy successor has apparently emerged.

This according to the guys at HDguru, who proclaimed the new $2,600 set was easily the "New King of HDTVs." In some cases, they said, the Panasonic was able to best the Kuro.

The V10 distinction carries with it the same NEO PDP panel as its cousins in the recently released G10 plasma line, but adds in a bevy of new software and hardware features, including three color modes, a thinner profile (1.1″ deep at top and 3.3″ middle), and a 96Hz refresh rate for 24Hz sources. The V10 line currently comes in 50 and 54-in. models, with larger 58 and 65-inchers due out in August.

And lest you still remain on the fence about this HDTV, know that HDGuru changed their frickin review system from four to five hearts to accommodate all the wonderful new awesomeness provided by Panasonic in this pricey new HDTV. [HDGuru]

[mazda lover]

Now for something different, will this make all flat panels obsolete? or is it just a gimmick? Or?

http://www.panasonic.com/3d/Default.aspx

[mazda lover]

Vizio LCD LED review

http://www.avguide.com/review/vizio-vf551xvt-lcd-hdtv-led-backlighting-playback-25?src=Playback

[Fobio]

call me old school, but I can't see myself with a 3d TV at all...

[MajesticBlueNTO]

some discussion 120 vs 240 HZ

http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=115988

interesting comment from the HDGuru article linked in that DH thread:


etype2
Posted on 5th November, 2009
It appears that motion enhancing systems degrade the image instead of improving the image. In a simple test like this one, it is easy for the eye to pick up the distortion.

In my last comment elsewhere on your site, I provided a link in which a extensive, scientific, controlled test was run over months where dozens of professionals, jounalists,videophiles, etc; were invited to give their opinions.

It turns out that with complex live or recorded video, the human brain can not process motion blur. In fact, when there was motion blur, it turned to be from the source and not the display.

I hope this small potion will be acceptable from the test…

” The conclusions from everyone that participated in the Shoot-Out were consistent across the board and will likely surprise most consumers: there was essentially no visually detectable motion blur on any of the LCD HDTVs in all of the extensive live video content that we assembled. When people thought they saw motion blur, with only a handful of minor exceptions, the blur was either in the source video or a temporary visual illusion that disappeared when the segments in question were reviewed. Unlike the moving test patterns and moving photographs, the eye is unable to detect the blur in live video because the images are much more dynamic and complex, and undoubtedly because of the way the brain processes and extracts essential information from visual images. The results were identical for all of the LCD HDTVs, regardless of whether they had 60 or 120 Hz refresh rates, strobed LED backlighting, or advanced motion enhancement processing. ”

This conclusion supports what I have been commenting in your column over the past 4 years, I simply can not see motion blur on my calibrated Sharp 65 inch Aquos LCD. It dose not have the motion enhancing circuit. I became fustrated when I read all this talk about motion blur. Where is the beef? I have been around the block a few times having owned at one time or another the various display devices, beginning in the early 60’s.

I suppose it is there, if you freeze a frame of live video, it will be there, but I can’t decern it nor could the professionals see it during live video in the test. If this still bothers you that it is there but you can’t see it, then get a plasma.

The full test can be found in the link at the bottom of the comments in your last column.

Thank you.


which also echos why i've never seen any motion blur on non-compressed 720p, 1080i, and 1080p video signals on my 60Hz 46" (calibrated using settings from avsforum) and 60Hz 32" LCD TVs.

[MajesticBlueNTO]

Sweet explanation NTO!

thanks! it was the best i could recall from memory as i read up on it in early 2008.

for more reading, AVSForum (http://www.avsforum.com/) and Digital Home Canada (http://www.digitalhome.ca) are a wealth of information

[MistaChin]

Now for something different, will this make all flat panels obsolete? or is it just a gimmick? Or?

http://www.panasonic.com/3d/Default.aspx

This would take porn to a whole new level LOL

[Fobio]

This would take porn to a whole new level LOL

you must be a bukkake lover...:chuckle

[MistaChin]

you must be a bukkake lover...:chuckle

man that would be so gross. I'd be dodging my tv screen hahaha ewwww

[Fobio]

man that would be so gross. I'd be dodging my tv screen hahaha ewwww

I was more thinking you can play one of the many "participants/donors"...but your image is equally disgusting...lol...

[Go_Habs_Go]

Interesting thread.

Personally, I am going for a Panansonic plasma screen. Someone had a link in an earlier post about the V10 series that have a refresh rate of 96Hz. This is perfect for playing 1080p/24Hz Blu-ray video. Since I am planning on watching a lot of blu-ray, I am going with this baby. Just waiting for the right price point... :)

[Fobio]

Interesting thread.

Personally, I am going for a Panansonic plasma screen. Someone had a link in an earlier post about the V10 series that have a refresh rate of 96Hz. This is perfect for playing 1080p/24Hz Blu-ray video. Since I am planning on watching a lot of blu-ray, I am going with this baby. Just waiting for the right price point... :)

on pricecanada, the 58" V10 is $3500...I'll be looking for the 50" for under $2000...

[mazda lover]

on pricecanada, the 58" V10 is $3500...I'll be looking for the 50" for under $2000...

http://www.panasonic.ca/english/audiovideo/plasma/index.asp?tv=V%20series

discussion starting from March 2009 on the V10

http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=104487

[Fobio]

thanks for the links!

[mazda lover]

Interesting thread.

Personally, I am going for a Panansonic plasma screen. Someone had a link in an earlier post about the V10 series that have a refresh rate of 96Hz. This is perfect for playing 1080p/24Hz Blu-ray video. Since I am planning on watching a lot of blu-ray, I am going with this baby. Just waiting for the right price point... :)

the specs says 600HZ ? click on specifications

http://www.bestbuy.ca/catalog/proddetail.asp?sku_id=0926HDS0010126000&catid=28399&PCName=tv_panasonic&logon=&langid=EN

[laksman91]

Curious to know the physical limitation of the human eye/brain. After a certain speed I'm sure the brain cant process the images as fast

[Fuman]

Curious to know the physical limitation of the human eye/brain. After a certain speed I'm sure the brain cant process the images as fast
depends on the person, the average is roughly 60hz.
The most important thing, is for the frame rate to stay constant.
XBox 360, stays constant; can't speak for ps3 as I don't have one.
60 hertz is fine. Aren't Most movies / tv shows are under 60 FPS anyway?

Get the 60, use the rest of the money to get a home theater

source:http://www.daniele.ch/school/30vs60/30vs60_3.html


So what is the answer to how many frames per second should we be looking for? Anything over 60 fps is adequate, 72 fps is maximal (anything over that would be overkill). Framerates cannot drop though from that 72 fps, or we will start to see a degradation in the smoothness of the game. Don't get me wrong, it is not bad to play a game at 30 fps, it is fine, but to get the illusion of reality, you really need a frame rate of 72 fps. What this does is saturate the pipeline from your eyes to your visual cortex, just as reality does. As visual quality increases, it really becomes more important to keep frame rates high so we can get the most immersive feel possible. While we still may be several years away from photographic quality in 3D accelerators, it is important to keep the speed up there.
Looks like 3dfx isn't so full of it.

[froggy]

Curious to know the physical limitation of the human eye/brain. After a certain speed I'm sure the brain cant process the images as fast

your eye/brain can only process/recognize on average 60hz or 60 frames/second. said it before in my post on the first page

[etor]

on pricecanada, the 58" V10 is $3500...I'll be looking for the 50" for under $2000...

Want to find the best LCD TV (http://www.smartratings.com/electronics/plasma_and_lcds/472) deals? Well, you can get a refurbished Samsung LN46A630 46" LCD TV 120 Hz that has a rating of 85 for only around $930. And a Panasonic VIERA TC-P50X1 50" Plasma TV, whose smaller 42" version has a very good rating of 86, only costs around 730. There's no doubt they're the best bang for the buck. Just my 2 cents!

[towelsnap]

Want to find the best LCD TV (http://www.smartratings.com/electronics/plasma_and_lcds/472) deals? Well, you can get a refurbished Samsung LN46A630 46" LCD TV 120 Hz that has a rating of 85 for only around $930. And a Panasonic VIERA TC-P50X1 50" Plasma TV, whose smaller 42" version has a very good rating of 86, only costs around 730. There's no doubt they're the best bang for the buck. Just my 2 cents!

And where can you get them for "those" prices :whoa

[Reegs]

Hey guys,

I ended up getting the 46" LCD - 120Hz. Really happy with it. We have a 60Hz 32" LCD elsewhere in the house, and I was watching some football NFL on NBC and and I noticed the 120Hz was a lot better with the ghosting. I didn't think it would make that big of a deal but it does. Whether its worth the money, its up to personal preference. To some people it won't matter, even if it is there, so its really how you want the picture to look and what imperfections you can tolerate.

Also, I've watched old Seinfeld episodes on the 60Hz and it looks blurry, so I thought it was just because of the poor quality, however it looked better on the 120Hz TV. So I'm guessing it is because of the 3:2 pulldown thing. So FYI, I think 120Hz is the superior and worth the cost, option. Thanks for all your help guys!

[AskClaudio.com]

Hey Reegs, if you have GolTV, can you confirm how that looks on your 120Hz compared to your 60Hz. I'm also in the market of purchasing a TV during the holiday season. Thanks.

[Reegs]

Hey Reegs, if you have GolTV, can you confirm how that looks on your 120Hz compared to your 60Hz. I'm also in the market of purchasing a TV during the holiday season. Thanks.

Well, I wish I had GolTV (Are you getting your home theatre set up for the World CUP!?), unfortunately I don't have it, so I can't specifically answer your question. However its during vary random moments when you see the difference. For instance, I noticed the ghosting when they zoomed in on a player (head and shoulders shot) and the colour of the football helmet was directly in front of a solid section (Different colour) of the boards/fence around the stadium, then the colour difference along with the motion was evident. As I said before, During regular play in HD, it looks fine, the 120Hz helps out with the 24fps signals.

Anyways, One other thing, I don't think GolTV is in HD right now. So I found this forum and it seems like it might be going that way soon, but We'll see.

http://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1077000

Hope I sort of answered your question lol

[mazda lover]

More write up on the Samsung LCD - LED
Ops same review on page 3, how do I delete.

http://www.avguide.com/review/samsung-8500-series-lcd-hdtv-led-backlighting-playback-26?page=2&src=Playback

[mazda lover]

More write up on the Samsung LCD - LED
Ops same review on page 3, how do I delete.

http://www.avguide.com/review/samsung-8500-series-lcd-hdtv-led-backlighting-playback-26?page=2&src=Playback

Try this instead

http://www.televisioninfo.com/content/Samsung-Luxia-LN-55B8000-LCD-HDTV-First-Impressions-Review-773.htm

All TV reviews

http://www.televisioninfo.com/d/reviews.htm

[mazda lover]

Panasonic coming out with a new plasma, THX certified, going to wait for it to see how it looks and of course costs$$ Have a THX receiver Pioneer VSX9040THX already so might be a good match?

http://www.avguide.com/review/playback-24-panasonic-g10-series-thx-certified-plasma-tv?src=Playback

[Go_Habs_Go]

the specs says 600HZ ? click on specifications

http://www.bestbuy.ca/catalog/proddetail.asp?sku_id=0926HDS0010126000&catid=28399&PCName=tv_panasonic&logon=&langid=EN

The 600Hz is the rating for the sub-field drive. From what I've read, this specification doesn't mean anything for the consumer (older plasmas had a sub-field drive of 480Hz but again, it doesn't mean much). The refresh rate is what is important but this is not an issue for plasmas as much as it is for LCD's (i.e. 60Hz vs 120Hz vs 240Hz).

[MistaChin]

240hz = sex

[Fobio]

what are ppl's thoughts on the new wave of 3D LED TV's?

my affluent friend is really pushing it...esp that 72" $3500 Vizio...at that size, quality is ALMOST secondary...

to me it's just hype...manufacturers pushing TV's in a bad economy...or am I reaching that age where I'm "over the hill"? I just can't see myself using a 3D tv...I don't watch a lot of sports other than the odd basketball game here or there...and it's not like there's a lot of content out there for 3D yet...and the content we do have is somewhat in the infancy of delivering a truly immersive 3D experience...

I guess for the fanatic, this might be the best way to relive Avatar at home...

[queens49]

your eye/brain can only process/recognize on average 60hz or 60 frames/second. said it before in my post on the first page

That's not true. From Wiki,
"The human visual system does not see in terms of frames; it works with a continuous flow of light/information.[citation needed] A related question is, "how many frames per second are needed for an observer to not see artifacts?" However, this question too does not have single straightforward answer. If the image is switching between black and white each frame, then this image will appear to flicker when the pattern is shown at rates slower than 60 frames per second. In other words, the flicker-fusion point, where the eyes sees gray instead of flickering tends to be around 60 Hz. However, for fast moving objects, frame rates may need to be even higher to avoid judder (non-smooth motion) artifacts. And the retinal fusion point can vary in different people, as well as depending on lighting conditions."

Go to any store that sells TVs and compare a 60Hz vs 120Hz, you will see a difference. For one thing, the 120Hz image will be sharper for moving objects.

[Fobio]

I know this was more about 60 vs 120...but...

a friend of mine tested a Sony 3D LCD TV in Detroit...this guy is an uber geek like me so I trust his review. He said the flickering is so bad, it's not watchable...

He also saw "Up" in 2D on a 240Hz...on a Sony Bravia...he said it also looked so fake, it was unwatchable...

These new TV's are great...but running them untuned with traditional content isn't getting the most out of it...but not having owned one myself, can that "effect" even be tuned away?

Or should I just get new eyes?

[queens49]

I know this was more about 60 vs 120...but...

a friend of mine tested a Sony 3D LCD TV in Detroit...this guy is an uber geek like me so I trust his review. He said the flickering is so bad, it's not watchable...

He also saw "Up" in 2D on a 240Hz...on a Sony Bravia...he said it also looked so fake, it was unwatchable...

These new TV's are great...but running them untuned with traditional content isn't getting the most out of it...but not having owned one myself, can that "effect" even be tuned away?

Or should I just get new eyes?

I know what you are talking about when it looks "fake". It looks like the movie was filmed using a camcorder. Everything is way too sharp looking. I noticed it on Samsung LCDs, but I think the setting can be turned down. Not entirely sure, I knew I wanted a plasma, so I didn't fiddle with the LCD's too much.