Balance problems every month with RTX 16" Rims - what to do ?

[Crofty]

2004 Mazda 3 Hatch
history: got the car 2x years ago - first thing - bought 4x new Continental Touring tires (all-season) on the OEM 16" Rims - used them for a whole year - the tires felt crappy but no major drama.

-Did 2x alinement's (first alignment was done at mazda after a whinter escapade - was still running on OEM rims / second alignment was done on RTX rims because front passenger tire got more thread use on the outside - after that rotated the tire on the back)
-Changed both front left/right bearings (Mazda OEM bearings)
- In 2 years I have put around 30k on top of the 90k that the car had.

Last summer I have bought new set of 16" RTX rims (black with the red stripe) - same sizes as the OEM's and fitted the Continental Tires on them - and :bang:bang started.

I had to balance my wheels every month because the steering wheel shaking was getting on my nerves - when I ignored the heavy shaking for to long - thats when the front passenger tire got very used on the exterior - did the alignment + rebalanced ; after not even a moth steering wheel shaking again In total from starting of the Summer until late Autumn I took the car at least 5 times for re-balancing

This past winter - got new Infinity Winter Tires put the on the OEM Mazda Rims - Balanced them - drove the whole winter until late March - no problems

Now with the good weather - I put back the RTX + Continental Tires - Now it's late April (1 moth since the RTX are back on the car) And the shacking was back - progressive started from low vibration - until today I was sweating alone in the car at 110km/h on the highway.

Now I notice big vibration when I brake (usually happens only when I brake from high speeds) - a sign that the rotors are getting used ... Don't know if this affected the whole thing - but the shaking when breaking started only about 1 month ago.

Rims where bought from one of our sponsor - he balanced them properly because I know that allot of you go there + he's such a good guy that he didn't charged me every time I went back for the RB .
I really don't want to bash he's name.

Any spread of wisdom will be much appreciated.
I don't want to RB my wheels every month until winter - that will cover the cost of the rims :chuckle i guess...

Please excuse my typos "In Soviet Russia English spells You !"

[Rippetoe]

Very strange for your wheels to be out of balance so often.......is it possible that the sticky wieghts are coming off the wheels causing the unbalance? If so try a static balance.

[midnightfxgt]

I wonder if the tires are "Saw-toothed" and causing the vibration.

If you want, stop in here, and we can take a look at the tires; on the car, free of charge to see if they may be the issue.

-John

[Crofty]

I looked at the weights - they are still there - but dunno if bits and peaces fell off - they look ok.

Thanks for the offer John - I will try to drop by, I live in Toronto and I don't usually drive your way....I will try to make it this weekend if time allows me.

[TheMAN]

what tire pressures do you run? you should try upping the pressures to at least 35psi and go from there... if your tires have flimsy sidewalls, it could deform the wheel so slightly you can't notice it yet will affect balancing

[3GFX]

Is it possible the rims are bent or not true? Another possibility I just dealt with on my winters was belt shift in the tire.

[Crofty]

I have 32PSI usually.
I don't think it's bend because I balanced them so many times - and somebody should notice that by now

I have a question... two mechanics told me this that the weight is not where it supposed to be.

The current location it's in the inside of the rim. The mechanics told me that because of the shape of this rim the weight has to be on the limb (or as close as possible) of the edge.

Please see the picture - RED is where the weight it's now
BLUE is where they suggested that the weight should be.

Between the rim in the picture is the exact model of RTX that I have.

Do you guys agree ?


http://s882.photobucket.com/albums/ac30/n3groo/?action=view&current=myRTXrimdraw.jpg

[Crofty]

Sorry the image didn't work the first time.

Here's the picture

http://i882.photobucket.com/albums/ac30/n3groo/myRTXrimdraw.jpg

[midnightfxgt]

No way.... We see a lot of Canadian tire/Walmart Balance jobs come in with sticky weights on the outter lip. On older OEM wheels with a lip, you can use an MC, IAW, etc "bang-on" weight, but on alloys like this, you have it where it needs to be.

[Crofty]

Going today to tires23 (Mississauga)- to do the whole RB maybe they can shed some light.

Sorry John - they are on my drive back from work - and I can't get to your location during business days.

[TheMAN]

what you have is called a static balance... for a dynamic balance, you have a regular aluminum wheel weight clipped onto the rim, and if there isn't a "J" lip on the rim, stick on wheel weights are stuck on a flat spot closest to the outside edge... sometimes, this involves having the weights stuck in the middle due to the shape of the wheel

like I said also, just because your wheels aren't bent, doesn't mean it hasn't happened... all metals are mailable to an extent, if those tires you have got soft sidewalls, hitting potholes can momentarily deform the wheel and have it go back into shape... damage hasn't occurred, but minor changes in the wheel has.... hit a pothole big enough with crappy sidewall tires, and the wheel is really damaged, which is why I suggested increasing the tire pressures... there is NOTHING wrong with running 35psi as it improves handling, increases fuel economy, and stiffens up the sidewalls to help protect the rims better

then there's the issue of roadforce imbalance... the tire may look round to you, but during the manufacturing process, it's just a strip of rubber that has both ends attached together... this is a joint band, and that is a heavy spot in the tire... coupled with manufacturing imperfections in treading the tire, etc, there are imbalances which you cannot see, just like there are heavy sides on a wheel... this is why there are a red and yellow dot on a new tire, the yellow dot signifies the light side and the red dot is the heavy side... a trained tire installer would know to line up the yellow dot to the valve stem as much as possible as that is generally the heavy side of the wheel... but back to road force balancing.... the imperfections in the tire can only be balanced so much with dynamic balancing and matching those dots, but when load is applied to a tire, this balancing can change.... a road force balancer applies a roller onto the tire and applies force while imbalance is measured.... this way, a more "perfect" balance is attained

and finally, there is also the issue of wheels.... mazdas and many japanese cars uses hubcentric wheels, meaning the wheels are self centred onto the hubs and the majority of the load is supported by the hub, not the lugs... aftermarket wheels in general are designed to fit many cars, so the centrebore in those wheels are much larger than your stock ones, and even though they fit, they apply load to the lugs instead... it's also because of this that minor off centring occurs and vibrations can be noticed at higher speeds... the proper solution to this is to get hub centring ring adapters that match your car and your wheels so that the load can be transferred onto the hub and wheel be centred... obviously the other solution is to just put the stock wheel back on



so, your solution is to stop going to that tire shop, and go to a good one for at least dynamic balancing
I recommend road force balancing instead, and also increase the tire pressures to 35psi

[Crofty]

Thanks TheMan for taking the time to put that in details.

Going tomorrow to make that dynamic balance what http://www.tires23.com/ is having.

After reading what they have posted on there website - there machine actually does that.
And after I will inflate the tires to 35PSI and I will give it a shot.

I actually went in today - but dumb me when I changed my winter tires I put the lock key into the bag with my old tires.

Tomorrow it will be done.

Thanks again for your input - what you said makes sense.:thumbsup

[TheMAN]

any shop should have a dynamic balancer these days... it's been a normal thing to do for the past 25 years... its perplexing how you even got a static balance to begin with
anyway, that shop has a hunter GSP9700 balancer, one of the best in the industry... it will do road force balancing, so request that to be done over a simple dynamic balance... that machine can do all 3 different types of balancing so most of the time, people are lazy and just use dynamic balancing instead of road force balance

[midnightfxgt]

its perplexing how you even got a static balance to begin with


We see it lots... generally it works ok, and its faster for the tech to bang out cars... plus its way cheaper as sticky weights are expensive. That being said, we do NOT static balance :)

[Crofty]

So I went yesterday to Tire23 - awesome job and service (did the road force balance) - got a nice printout with what was done to the tires. cool cool
The driving it's really smooth again - and yest I have 35 PSI in the tires - the car feels lighter (rolls better)
Now it's just a matter of time to see if the wheels get out of balance - and how fast.

I still have to machine my rotors - because I don't want the shaking when braking from high speeds to unbalance my rims.

Thanks guys for posting.
I will update this...as soon I feel things going wrong or if things remain smooth.

[froggy]

well I'll keep my fingers crossed for you

[TheMAN]

We see it lots... generally it works ok, and its faster for the tech to bang out cars... plus its way cheaper as sticky weights are expensive. That being said, we do NOT static balance :)

your high quality service from crappy tire!

[midnightfxgt]

Not all Crappy Tire's are bad... just depends on who is on the other side of the balancer :)

[m_bisson]

Not all Crappy Tire's are bad... just depends on who is on the other side of the balancer :)

That goes for any shop ;)

[midnightfxgt]

Very true! We have seen some dedicated tire shops do some pretty shady work. On common one - using the wrong weights! There are soooo many different types of "bang-on" weights, yet they seem to like to just smash on an "MC" or "AW" where it doesnt belong.

Sorry, just a pet peeve!

[marvin24k]

Sorry the image didn't work the first time.

Here's the picture

http://i882.photobucket.com/albums/ac30/n3groo/myRTXrimdraw.jpg

What rims are these?

[midnightfxgt]

RTX Racer wheels.......

[Crofty]

Update:

After 1 week

No drama ... yet
Rolling smooth. :thumbsup

[leojadazol]

how much did it cost you for the road force balance? i think i have the same problem

[Crofty]

80$ - that's the price on there website (and what I have payed)

[m_bisson]

Sort of a side question: What would cause the tire to become unbalanced so quickly?

[blackm3]

Sort of a side question: What would cause the tire to become unbalanced so quickly?

pot holes, rims not being balanced properly in the first place, some guys just slap on weights, and some don't clean the rim before the put on the weights so it falls off. i had rims for 3 or more years without rebalancing and i had some rims that require 4 oz and i could of put that mutha on the drivers front no problem

[Crofty]

Just to update the discussion;

The road force ballance does work better (in my case)

I'm sugesting going for one if you put aftermaket rim's on your ride - before you mess your tires like I did.
I must say that the shaking it's coming back - but it's not as bad and fast like it was after rebalacing in the past (but then again it was a crazy month with me travelling prolly twice as much and not gentile)

I also got 2x used tires (same model) so I will snap those on the back wheels to see if it improves the ride. Since after this road force balance - the back tires started to wear on the interior preety bad - alingment problems again?

this thing never stops