PDA

View Full Version : Good Fellows Auto Wholesalers?



G-daddy
05-31-2010, 08:54 PM
This is close to Downsview Auto...is it anything like Downsview? Anybody have any experience with this dealer?

bluecraze07
05-31-2010, 09:45 PM
This is close to Downsview Auto...is it anything like Downsview? Anybody have any experience with this dealer?

I would like to know as well. Buying a used car can become a nightmare so always good to do your homework.

FCB
07-10-2010, 04:29 AM
G-daddy, did you give em a try? they seem to have a good selection on website (_www.goodfellowsauto.com) but some pics are still with snow which makes me worried about the weather in their area :)

G-daddy
07-10-2010, 11:41 AM
Nope. Ended up getting a new one.

starscream
07-10-2010, 04:51 PM
Dad bought his 2006 Mazda Tribute there.

I would rate them 7/10. They did what we asked when we wanted to buy the tribute (change certian pieces around, buff out some scratches, change rear rotors), they even allowed me to take it the day before actual purchase to Airport Mazda to have them inspect the vehicle. They also did allow test drives, and were pretty friendly.

The only 2 issues I had with them, were AFTER I bought the Tribute, they really dont care, and whoever is your sales person WILL be hard to get ahold of. That to me is a big issue, because I expect some service especially after when it was something they should have taken care of. Second, the manager is/can be an ******* once you have purchased the vehicle.

Overall, I would purchase from them again, but as a standard practice I always do a through check, and do all my due dilligenece before purchase.

DarkKilla
07-11-2010, 12:37 PM
Went there to look at some ford escapes, most of their cars seem to be right off lease, some in very clean condition compared to other used dealerships. However always check the car, as some of their escapes had rust by the wheel well. I find that their prices are slightly higher than other used dealerships, but that could be because their cars look cleaner. You can negotiate with them, but they did try to make me look stupid when I didnt take the last deal. I didnt end up buying from them, so I am not sure as to how after sales service is.

Zuluwun
07-17-2010, 12:08 AM
I'm curious about them too. they apparently have an 06 GT, fully loaded (leather, heated seats, moonroof) for $10,500 with 86k. sounds almost too good to be true.

ingraham
07-27-2010, 09:59 PM
I'm curious about them too. they apparently have an 06 GT, fully loaded (leather, heated seats, moonroof) for $10,500 with 86k. sounds almost too good to be true.

I bought my Mazda 3 from these guys about 2 months ago and my brother bought his Mazda Tribute from them 2 years ago,their priceses are good, they let me test drive as many as vehicles I wanted
and did all the work they promised, also they hooked me up with a set of used winter tires at $40 each, one of the managers there has been very help full to my brother in service and maintenance,
I haven't used his help yet.so far I am happy with the purchase.

mazda3newbie
06-20-2011, 11:50 AM
My mother bought a Honda Civic from here a few years ago and the car is still running fine. My mother and father said they were pleasant and helpful.

mazada
08-15-2011, 11:54 PM
Goodfellowsauto D.O.T.
Do not believe what they say. Completely untrustworthy people. Prices are low to get you in while you end up paying much more than ever expected.

AkitoI
08-16-2011, 12:57 PM
Goodfellowsauto D.O.T.
Do not believe what they say. Completely untrustworthy people. Prices are low to get you in while you end up paying much more than ever expected.

Can you give more details on 'more than expected'?
Curious what exactly you mean... down the road costs on the vehicle, or purchase price additions?

Dreamliner
08-19-2011, 11:15 PM
Lots of Quebec cars as far as I can see. The license plates screwed directly into the bumper (or no plate holder/screw holes on the front) as well as dealers stickers from Quebec are a dead giveaway. Not to mention the system menus on the cars are in french (easily changable but it's an easy thing to spot).

mazada
08-20-2011, 06:28 PM
Can you give more details on 'more than expected'?
Curious what exactly you mean... down the road costs on the vehicle, or purchase price additions?

Goodfellows tell they fix all defects in the car like dislocated pumper, bad wheel alignment, noises etc. ....you sign the paper and they don’t fix anything.

Addition to selling price they charge:
D.O.T $399.00
Administration Fee $199.00
Gasoline $30.00
OMVIC Fee $5.00
License Fee $120.00

stefanb
08-21-2011, 10:47 PM
Goodfellows tell they fix all defects in the car like dislocated pumper, bad wheel alignment, noises etc. ....you sign the paper and they don’t fix anything.

Addition to selling price they charge:
D.O.T $399.00
Administration Fee $199.00
Gasoline $30.00
OMVIC Fee $5.00
License Fee $120.00

Does anyone have more experience with them?

I was there today; disappointed they tack all that stuff on...Found one I'm really interested in too

mbooth
08-22-2011, 01:26 AM
In my opinion Good Fellows Auto is a POS they are usually overpriced in used cars, not very good quality (i.e. bought the cheap ones at the auction) and they do the bare bare bare minimum to get them safety certified. Oh and a friend of mine bought his car there and they didn't even give him the floor matts with the car!!

Consumer
02-16-2012, 12:03 AM
I bought a car from them not too long ago, let me share my experience:
They have lots cars to choose from, the prices are reasonable.
The service is horrible. I would not recommend the extended warranty or taking your car there for service.
I had to go there several times for one minor issue.
There internal communication is bad and they don't answer their emails.
People there are not friendly and they didn't seem to care about your problem.
Rate 5/10

Mellonhead3013
02-22-2012, 12:11 PM
I bought a Mazda5 from Good Fellows recently. It was fine. The cars are mostly off-lease - a lot of them are from Quebec. That's a good thing, actually, because they don't salt the roads so much there. The prices are fair considering most of them have had only 1 owner and are average mileage. How do i know about the previous owners? I ran a Carfax report on the car I wanted. Really, it's a used car dealer - what do people expect? Of course they're going to play hardball on the price - they're used-car salesmen. Do your homework and you'll be fine. The best thing you can say about these guys is that they've been in business for many years, and there's no evidence that they've ever fixed up a wreck and sold it as a mint-condition car. They treated me fine - I only got 500 knocked off the price, but they threw in a one-year AutoGard warranty (these are not junk! It's a real warranty) and the car is just what they said it was.

sol_searchin
02-23-2012, 08:59 PM
You should get a carproof not a carfax for canadian cars, a carfax report might not show the accidents that a carproof would.

5_Alive
02-24-2012, 10:59 AM
We had a customer come in with a Mazda5 that bought from them.
Long story short, they sold her a warranty for 3 years/30,000km, maximum $1,000 per claim, and only with them, applying only to engine and transmission components only. Seeing as she lives in Windsor, how the hell would they expect her to get there if the car broke down? Almost silly imo, especially considering the $1,000 max. per claim.

She had some wheel bearing issues as well. All in all, the car was in clean and fair shape, but little things they should have repaired prior considering the price she paid wasn't far off what other stores charge.

Mellonhead3013
02-24-2012, 04:51 PM
They supply the carproof report, so the carfax makes sense as an extra check. As for the warranty, they are from Autogard, a third-party warranty company, so you don't have to take your car back to Good Fellow's ever (at least, that's what the people at Autogard told me when I called them). The warrantee I got (for free!) covers a hell of a lot more than just the engine/transmission. It only covers 1000$/claim but it's better than the nothing you get from a private sale.

I'm not defending these guys - just setting the record straight.

PS: The tire Good Fellows put on the car (I assume it was them, 'cause they're new) are s**t.

peterm15
02-24-2012, 05:00 PM
Autogaurd can be purchased for any vehicle. Good on you getting it free though.

Night Rider
03-30-2012, 06:26 PM
I'm sure your car search has long passed, but I'm about to bite the bullet - going to Downsview AND Good Fellows this weekend.

Having them so close to each other is a plus at this point, although I'm wary of all the warnings posted on here for both. It sounds like you just have to check the T's and C's, get your CarProof, and get it all in writing - the usual Caveat Emptor for used car purchases.

This will be my 3rd Mazda 3. A new (post-2010) model is not a option, as I'm still totally anti-smiley face grill. Why Mazda turned my somewhat manly 3 into a bubbly, smiley-face chick-mobile, I'll never know, but it means I can't buy any of the newer models, so I have to hit the pavement for a used deal. I checked with GTA Fine Cars in Vaughn first, but they don't have any manual ones in stock.

I'll let y'all know how it goes with these shady guys in North York.

Night Rider
04-06-2012, 06:41 PM
I went to Good Fellows on the weekend and they are definitely NOT related to Downsview at all. I talked to a sales guy named Afshin, who was not shy about distancing this dealership from Downsview. He bragged about them having a stellar rating with the Better Business Bureau. I thought it was a line but turns out to be true (BBB Rating: Good Fellows (http://www.bbb.org/kitchener/business-reviews/auto-dealers-used-cars/good-fellows-auto-wholesalers-in-north-york-on-1153206)). They had plenty of Mazda 3's, but very few manual, which is a must-have for me. Most of the cars in the show room were 10,000 or more, which was too steep for my pockets anyway.

There are a lot of dealerships on this stretch of road (Keele, between Finch and Sheppard) that you will find on carpages.ca, autotrader.ca, or that come up on Kijiji and Craigslist.

From my experience, just go in or call any of the dealerships that have a car you want. Half of the cars advertised either aren't available anymore or never were. Do yourself a favor and confirm the on-hand inventory before you go to any effort. Especially if you are looking for stick shift, it's less than 16% of the entire car market in North America and generally a very short list when it comes to available stock.

I've looked at 5 Mazda 3's and a few Honda Civics now, all ranging from 2004 to 2008, used, under 150,000 km. I gotta say that the issue of rust on Mazdas is a serious problem, but they are hands-down still the best car to drive in their class. If they got rid of the smiley face grill, I could at least think about buying new. It looks like I'll have to suck it up and go Honda for a year until I can afford what I really want.

JEEP2X4
04-25-2012, 07:58 PM
WORST CAR DEALERSHIP
EMIL ESHAN LAST NAME UNKNOWN IS A FRAUD
THEY DIDNT FIX ANYTHING THAT NEEDED TO BE FIXED ON THE CAR I PURCHASED
THEY MADE ME SIGN A OWNERSHIP THAT WASNT EVEN UNDER MY NAME BUT SAID IT WAS DONE THRU MINISTRY OF TRANSPORATION
SALES REP + FINANCING LADY+ OWNER SHOW NO EMPATHY AND NO ACCOUNTABILITY

THEY LIED AFTER TWO DAYS IN A ROW SAYING CAR WAS READY AND IT WASNT. THEN WHEN I FREAKED AND SAID I WANTED TO CANCEL THIS DEAL AND LOSE MY DEPOSIT THEY SAID MINISTRY WAS CLOSED ON THURSDAY 4PM FOR DEALERS AND THAT IS WHY IT COULDNT BE REGISTERED WHEN NEAREST LOCATION
WAS OPEN TILL 8PM I CALLED THEM OUT ON IT SO THEY WENT AND REGISTERED IT

WHAT THE ADVERTISE ON WEBSITE AND ACTUAL CAR BASED ON STOCK NUMBRE ARE TWO DIFFERENT THINGS

I WAS SOLD A WARRANTY THAT EMIL ESHAN SAID I COULD USE FOR EVERTYHING WHEN I CALLED THE COMPANY
TO MAKE A CLAIM THEY SAID NOPE THAT ISNT TRUE AND IT WASNT EVEN ACTIVATED. THEY LITERALLY JUST ACTVATED THIS WEEK AFTER I CALLED TWO DAYS IN A ROW DEMANDING MY ACCOUNT NUMBER

THEY DONT RETURN PHONE CALLS FOR INQURIES OR CONCERN
THE MANAGER OR OWNER WONT DEAL WITH YOUR COMPLAINTS OR CONCERNS SPEAK TO YOUR SALES REPRESETATIVE
THE SALES REP NEEDS TO SPEAK TO HIS MANAGER..

THIS DEALERSHIP IS SUPPOSELY UNDER THE BETTER BUSINESS BUREAU. WHAT IDIOT GAVE THEM THAT RATING.

MAKING YOUR CLIENTS INDIRECTLY COMMIT FRAUD ISNT ETHICAL .
I WAS PROMISED I WOULD BE GIVEN COPY OF THE FINANCING DOCUMENTS AND HAVENT YET

PLEASE SAVE YOUR TIME, HEADACHES AND MONEY AND STAY AWAY FROM THESE PPL

I GIVE THIS PLACE A 1/10 AND THAT BEING TOO GENEROUS SHOULD REALLY BE 0/10
I MAKE IT MY MISSION TO MAKE SURE EVERYONE KNOW THIS DEALERSHIP IS A FRAUDSTER

07carbon3
04-25-2012, 08:05 PM
WORST CAR DEALERSHIP
EMIL ESHAN LAST NAME UNKNOWN IS A FRAUD
THEY DIDNT FIX ANYTHING THAT NEEDED TO BE FIXED ON THE CAR I PURCHASED
THEY MADE ME SIGN A OWNERSHIP THAT WASNT EVEN UNDER MY NAME BUT SAID IT WAS DONE THRU MINISTRY OF TRANSPORATION
SALES REP + FINANCING LADY+ OWNER SHOW NO EMPATHY AND NO ACCOUNTABILITY

THEY LIED AFTER TWO DAYS IN A ROW SAYING CAR WAS READY AND IT WASNT. THEN WHEN I FREAKED AND SAID I WANTED TO CANCEL THIS DEAL AND LOSE MY DEPOSIT THEY SAID MINISTRY WAS CLOSED ON THURSDAY 4PM FOR DEALERS AND THAT IS WHY IT COULDNT BE REGISTERED WHEN NEAREST LOCATION
WAS OPEN TILL 8PM I CALLED THEM OUT ON IT SO THEY WENT AND REGISTERED IT

WHAT THE ADVERTISE ON WEBSITE AND ACTUAL CAR BASED ON STOCK NUMBRE ARE TWO DIFFERENT THINGS

I WAS SOLD A WARRANTY THAT EMIL ESHAN SAID I COULD USE FOR EVERTYHING WHEN I CALLED THE COMPANY
TO MAKE A CLAIM THEY SAID NOPE THAT ISNT TRUE AND IT WASNT EVEN ACTIVATED. THEY LITERALLY JUST ACTVATED THIS WEEK AFTER I CALLED TWO DAYS IN A ROW DEMANDING MY ACCOUNT NUMBER

THEY DONT RETURN PHONE CALLS FOR INQURIES OR CONCERN
THE MANAGER OR OWNER WONT DEAL WITH YOUR COMPLAINTS OR CONCERNS SPEAK TO YOUR SALES REPRESETATIVE
THE SALES REP NEEDS TO SPEAK TO HIS MANAGER..

THIS DEALERSHIP IS SUPPOSELY UNDER THE BETTER BUSINESS BUREAU. WHAT IDIOT GAVE THEM THAT RATING.

MAKING YOUR CLIENTS INDIRECTLY COMMIT FRAUD ISNT ETHICAL .
I WAS PROMISED I WOULD BE GIVEN COPY OF THE FINANCING DOCUMENTS AND HAVENT YET

PLEASE SAVE YOUR TIME, HEADACHES AND MONEY AND STAY AWAY FROM THESE PPL

I GIVE THIS PLACE A 1/10 AND THAT BEING TOO GENEROUS SHOULD REALLY BE 0/10
I MAKE IT MY MISSION TO MAKE SURE EVERYONE KNOW THIS DEALERSHIP IS A FRAUDSTER

sorry about the bad experience you had, i bought my 07 sedan from them, my experience was perfect with them picked out a 3 that was in the best condition/lowest mileage and told them how much cash i had to give them and they sold it to me for that, car was ready a few days after. i don't remember my sales agent name but he was good.

07carbon3
04-25-2012, 08:07 PM
In my opinion Good Fellows Auto is a POS they are usually overpriced in used cars, not very good quality (i.e. bought the cheap ones at the auction) and they do the bare bare bare minimum to get them safety certified. Oh and a friend of mine bought his car there and they didn't even give him the floor matts with the car!!


hahah true, i got Toyota mats with our car

Good fellows auto
04-27-2012, 02:04 PM
I'm from Good Fellow's Auto and customer of mine told me about this website and this post (I should also add that it was a repeat customer t)

First of all, I'd like to thank the customers that have wrote nice things about us on this website, and also I understand there may be some customers that didn't have the best of experiences, we always try our best but because of the nature of this business it is not possible to satisfy every possible customer given the amount of vehicles we sell. I'm also surprised by some of the comments that I believe were probably posted by our competitors.


I'll start off by touching on all the points that this lady posted on this website. I don`t understand why she is so upset and wrote these things.


1. There is no mystery behind our sales representatives names. All the first names and last names are written on the business cards and the bill of sales, If you would have taken some time to read beside his first name you would clearly see his last name is beside his first name.


2. We didn't make you sign any ownership at all. First of all the car was in your father in-laws name so he signed the ownership of the vehicle.


3. The reason why it took so long to transfer the ownership wasn't because of us, it was because of the complications given with your situation. You wanted to transfer a plate to the new vehicle where the ownership didn't have you father in-laws name on it. After you changed it and we took it to the ministry of transportation to transfer it into your husbands name and father in-law's name. We then found out that your husband had over $1,100.00 in outstanding parking tickets owed to the government, so we couldnt transfer it. We asked you guys if you wanted to pay the outstanding amount and you said no just transfer it under your father-in laws name which we did afterwards. So the problem wasn't from our end it was the complications given on your end. If you'd like we can even post the receipt on this website of the amount owing in parking tickets if you give us permission.


4. If you have a complaint, you should talk to your sales representative first, if it escalates then you talk to the manager and if it escalates from there you go to the governing body which is the UCDA. You decided to do everything backwards. You complained to the UCDA first and they told you to talk to the dealership and you talked to the manager and he asked you to talk to the sales representative first. I don`t see the problem here, most companies do the same thing. It`s not that your issue is not important its because the manager has so much on his plate that if it is something small that a sales representative can help you with that is the best solution and if it the problem escalates he will send you to the manager.

You called the manager after calling the UCDA complaining that your timing belt needs to be fixed. The manager told you that your vehicle did not having a timing belt and that it has a timing chain. You kept complaining about it having a timing belt so he referred you to talk to the sales representative because it wasn`t getting anywhere and he didn`t want to spend time on something that you clearly werèn`t understanding. Please don`t make up parts for the car and complain about it, it takes your credibility down a lot.


5. The bill of sale was in your father in-laws name and he wanted to purcahse a warranty for the car and add it into the financing.

You wanted us to do something illegal by canceling the warranty that he purchased and to give you the money back instead of him. We don`t do such things like that.



Also i hope you remember that I worked on your financing situation for about 12 days before I could get your father in-law financed. That was because of your personal credit situation and your husbands credit situation. I was expecting maybe to get a `thank you` in return but you were instead upset that I got you approved at the prime bank rate because I said you couldn`t pick up your car until after you sign the banks financing documents first. I felt I was helping you a great deal because your husband told me how desperate he was to get a car for work and I was proud to have gotten the prime bank rate that I got you.

I should also remind you that we are a family business and we have been in business for a very long time and we plan to be in business for a very long time and pass the business down to our children. We have earned our A+ rating with the Better Business Bureau (BBB) and we are proud of the way we have grown this business into the state that it`s in today. We do try our best to keep all our customers happy, although with the nature of this business it is impossible given the number of vehicles we sell.

I really do wish you will enjoy your jeep patriot. By all means we will still provide you with our free services in the future if you need, which is the free diagnostic services and 50% percent off mechanical services.

*** To the customer that received Toyota mats instead of Mazda mats we're very sorry this happened, please come to the dealership and we will kindly exchange them for Mazda mats. The detailers probably by mistake put the mats in the wrong vehicle after washing them.

Also a note to our customers we can service your vehicle here if youd like through the autogard warranty but they allow you to go to any mechanic shop in north america that is certified. If it is a safety issue bring the car here and we`ll stand behind our satefy certification, thats why we give you 36 written in the contract and we`ll try for the future to give our customers better service if they need to come in after purchase.

Thanks again for all the comments, good or bad it is helpful and we will consider everything that was said to help become a better used car dealer.





WORST CAR DEALERSHIP
EMIL ESHAN LAST NAME UNKNOWN IS A FRAUD
THEY DIDNT FIX ANYTHING THAT NEEDED TO BE FIXED ON THE CAR I PURCHASED
THEY MADE ME SIGN A OWNERSHIP THAT WASNT EVEN UNDER MY NAME BUT SAID IT WAS DONE THRU MINISTRY OF TRANSPORATION
SALES REP + FINANCING LADY+ OWNER SHOW NO EMPATHY AND NO ACCOUNTABILITY

THEY LIED AFTER TWO DAYS IN A ROW SAYING CAR WAS READY AND IT WASNT. THEN WHEN I FREAKED AND SAID I WANTED TO CANCEL THIS DEAL AND LOSE MY DEPOSIT THEY SAID MINISTRY WAS CLOSED ON THURSDAY 4PM FOR DEALERS AND THAT IS WHY IT COULDNT BE REGISTERED WHEN NEAREST LOCATION
WAS OPEN TILL 8PM I CALLED THEM OUT ON IT SO THEY WENT AND REGISTERED IT

WHAT THE ADVERTISE ON WEBSITE AND ACTUAL CAR BASED ON STOCK NUMBRE ARE TWO DIFFERENT THINGS

I WAS SOLD A WARRANTY THAT EMIL ESHAN SAID I COULD USE FOR EVERTYHING WHEN I CALLED THE COMPANY
TO MAKE A CLAIM THEY SAID NOPE THAT ISNT TRUE AND IT WASNT EVEN ACTIVATED. THEY LITERALLY JUST ACTVATED THIS WEEK AFTER I CALLED TWO DAYS IN A ROW DEMANDING MY ACCOUNT NUMBER

THEY DONT RETURN PHONE CALLS FOR INQURIES OR CONCERN
THE MANAGER OR OWNER WONT DEAL WITH YOUR COMPLAINTS OR CONCERNS SPEAK TO YOUR SALES REPRESETATIVE
THE SALES REP NEEDS TO SPEAK TO HIS MANAGER..

THIS DEALERSHIP IS SUPPOSELY UNDER THE BETTER BUSINESS BUREAU. WHAT IDIOT GAVE THEM THAT RATING.

MAKING YOUR CLIENTS INDIRECTLY COMMIT FRAUD ISNT ETHICAL .
I WAS PROMISED I WOULD BE GIVEN COPY OF THE FINANCING DOCUMENTS AND HAVENT YET

PLEASE SAVE YOUR TIME, HEADACHES AND MONEY AND STAY AWAY FROM THESE PPL

I GIVE THIS PLACE A 1/10 AND THAT BEING TOO GENEROUS SHOULD REALLY BE 0/10
I MAKE IT MY MISSION TO MAKE SURE EVERYONE KNOW THIS DEALERSHIP IS A FRAUDSTER

cwp_sedan
04-27-2012, 02:46 PM
1 post and 1 bashing thread? I wouldn't take JEEP2X4 very seriously.

This forum isn't just for people to air their dirty laundry out.

07carbon3
04-27-2012, 02:58 PM
1 post and 1 bashing thread? I wouldn't take JEEP2X4 very seriously.

This forum isn't just for people to air their dirty laundry out.

well said:)

Jeff-TheBiz
04-27-2012, 03:05 PM
1 post and 1 bashing thread? I wouldn't take JEEP2X4 very seriously.

+1 to some extent... however even the dealer knows the client so the post can't be completely made up.



This forum isn't just for people to air their dirty laundry out.

+100

only bad part of a forum become successful.. people use it as a soap box.. very nice to see someone come on with the other side of the story.

RTEnthusiast
04-27-2012, 05:23 PM
1 post and 1 bashing thread? I wouldn't take JEEP2X4 very seriously.

This forum isn't just for people to air their dirty laundry out.

Especially someone who is kooky enough to get a "2x4" Jeep...

cwp_sedan
04-27-2012, 06:10 PM
Especially someone who is kooky enough to get a "2x4" Jeep...

:chuckle

trulankan
04-27-2012, 07:12 PM
theres always 2 sides to a story...its up to you to determine which to believe based on the facts

canscot05
06-19-2012, 11:32 AM
Went to see a couple of cars that Good Fellows had confirmed in the morning were available, only to find that one wasn't on the inventory sheet and the other had been sold the day before. They did have a car out the back that was higher mileage that I could look at, of course. I was disappointed that with todays technology a dealership does not know what stock it has available.

canscot05
06-30-2012, 09:30 AM
Not to keep bashing on Goodfellows but they are still advertising the same cars I was interested in, so they clearly are bait and switch cars. Call to make sure they have the car/cars you want to see before driving over.

asyed
07-05-2012, 10:23 PM
they seem to have alot of mazda 3's and the prices seemed good, until i read this thread, its a good thing too, they had one car that i was actually interested in ( burgundy Mazda 3 hatch i believe) , but after hearing about the sub-par customer service, I think ill go somewhere that cares about the customer rather than pretend nothing happened.....