Lug nuts keep coming loose...

[sudz]

I put on my winters today, However, the lug nuts keep coming loose.

and by loose, I mean, I'm not going to drive my car more than 1km before I find the root cause.

What I did:

Took off my summer rims. (RTX 17 inch rims)

Put on my Winter rims,/tires on Stock Mazda3 15 inch alloys.

Tightened down nuts as much as I could with the tire iron while on jack, in star pattern. (i'm a big guy, so I didn't kill em, just put my arm into it, not my weight)

put the car back down, tightened again. Thought it was weird that they still turned, gave me "steady" resistance. Tightened them up, went for about a 1.5 km drive. Immedately felt the car shimmy and shake. Espically after the first corner.

Got out of car... One bolt was even loose enough to tighten by hand. Used the tire iron again, tightened them all. Drove home. Loose nuts again... (you get the picture... every km or so... the nuts are loose. What the heck!?

Any idea's?

The ONLY one i've got right now is that maybe simply tire put something on when I got my summer rims? A spacer? I didn't remove anything... but the looseness issue effects ALL tires.

Thanks. Was going to drive downtown tomorrow morning for the leafs skills comp... but it looks like I won't be making it :-(

[PearlM3]

Use a torque wrench to make sure you are tightening them enough

[mazdilla]

.... Was going to drive downtown tomorrow morning for the leafs skills comp... but it looks like I won't be making it :-(

:whoa ... They have skills???!!!!


http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt132/mazdilla/Other/Go-Habs-Go_25.gif

:chuckle

[Noisy Crow]

The ONLY one i've got right now is that maybe simply tire put something on when I got my summer rims? A spacer? I didn't remove anything... but the looseness issue effects ALL tires. :-(

Don't know about RTX wheels. But odds are that Simply used centering rings when they went on... almost all after-market wheels are not hub-centric. Pull one of the wheels and check for a plastic ring on the hub. It's probably black plastic, and probably somewhat squished.

[Soyabean]

There is a ring that they put on your aftermarket rings (i forgot what its called, maybe spacers?). Sometimes, it gets stuck to your hub. When i put on the winters, the wheels didnt stay on properly because the ring pushed the steelie out about an inch. But you should immediately notice that your wheels are not put on properly as they will wiggle.

But im sure you put it on properly and is able to detect if the wheel is not put on properly. Did u put any antiseize on the bolts? I cant really think of a reason why it'd come lose while you drive

[Thrizzl3]

There is a ring that they put on your aftermarket rings (i forgot what its called, maybe spacers?). Sometimes, it gets stuck to your hub. When i put on the winters, the wheels didnt stay on properly because the ring pushed the steelie out about an inch. But you should immediately notice that your wheels are not put on properly as they will wiggle.

But im sure you put it on properly and is able to detect if the wheel is not put on properly. Did u put any antiseize on the bolts? I cant really think of a reason why it'd come lose while you drive

the hubcentric rings?

[Soyabean]

yes phillip. That was what I was looking for *high five*

[bluemazda3]

Don't know about RTX wheels. But odds are that Simply used centering rings when they went on... almost all after-market wheels are not hub-centric. Pull one of the wheels and check for a plastic ring on the hub. It's probably black plastic, and probably somewhat squished.

+1 yup probably a ring...

[sudz]

THat was my guess... that it was squishing the ring, and causing "slack"... I tighten them up... seem fine for aminute, first corner with any stress on the plastic ring... squishes it more, ... Play... Loose bolts.

I'll go downstairs and fix it now and let you guys now.

[MistaChin]

This was my exact problem when i swapped. It was the hubcentric ring. It was stuck to my hub pretty good so i just broke it off lol. Good luck!

[Thrizzl3]

This was my exact problem when i swapped. It was the hubcentric ring. It was stuck to my hub pretty good so i just broke it off lol. Good luck!

lol mine care off easy with a flat head screw driver and some penetrating fluid.

[Cudgel]

Yup, it's the hubcentric ring for sure.

This happened to me on my RX-8 when I had aftermarket rims. I didn't know and wasn't informed that they used a hub ring so when I went to put back on my factory rims, I had the exact same problem with the bolts coming loose. I called the guy up about it and he told me to check for the hub ring (black plastic piece) which I did and they were all squished up (all 4 of them) and I couldn't re-use them again and I had to buy new ones. This tells me that they over tightened the rims because I've used these rims for another 3 years now on the Mazda3 with the same hub ring without any problems (using a torque wrench to tightened down the bolts).

[Default User]

are you using the tuner lugs or the OEM lugs?

[sudz]

It was the hub centric ring. Had to pry them off as they were squashed... everything is perfect now! Thanks for all your help!

Now I have the craptacular handling of my winter tires...

[Soyabean]

I dont get it. How do you guys put on your oem rims and not notice that it does not fit properly. Like when my hub centric ring was on, it prevented my steelies from going on properly. I immediately noticed the difference. I simply put my summer rims back on and they stuck back to the aftermarket rim and then i removed it.

Cuz having that ring on made a big difference. Like I knew the tire was like half an inch or an inch from where it was supposed to sit

But im happy you solved your problem Alex

[MistaChin]

I dont get it. How do you guys put on your oem rims and not notice that it does not fit properly. Like when my hub centric ring was on, it prevented my steelies from going on properly. I immediately noticed the difference. I simply put my summer rims back on and they stuck back to the aftermarket rim and then i removed it.

Cuz having that ring on made a big difference. Like I knew the tire was like half an inch or an inch from where it was supposed to sit

But im happy you solved your problem Alex

Well I'm an idiot. Not sure what the other people's excuses are lol

[taz4432]

I dont get it. How do you guys put on your oem rims and not notice that it does not fit properly. Like when my hub centric ring was on, it prevented my steelies from going on properly. I immediately noticed the difference. I simply put my summer rims back on and they stuck back to the aftermarket rim and then i removed it.

Cuz having that ring on made a big difference. Like I knew the tire was like half an inch or an inch from where it was supposed to sit

But im happy you solved your problem Alex

That's what I was thinking...sometimes after a track day I'll go to put on my street rims and forget to take off my hubrings from my track rims but it is VERY noticeable that they are one...

Glad that you got it all figured out, though! =)

[Cudgel]

I dont get it. How do you guys put on your oem rims and not notice that it does not fit properly. Like when my hub centric ring was on, it prevented my steelies from going on properly. I immediately noticed the difference. I simply put my summer rims back on and they stuck back to the aftermarket rim and then i removed it.

Cuz having that ring on made a big difference. Like I knew the tire was like half an inch or an inch from where it was supposed to sit

But im happy you solved your problem Alex

Hahahaha...well, mine were all mashed up flat against the back so you didn't really even noticed it. If the hub ring was there, it would be very hard for me to put the OEM rims back on and I would have noticed for sure.

[sudz]

Yeah... I'm an idiot. I've done them the last 3 years, same method... but with the new rims I didn't know about the hub centric ring coming off and staying on the tire. (it stayed in the rim on the rear passenger side... so i do have ONE...)

I should have investigated further when The bolts didn't tighten right away... I thought it was weird.

Bottom line: I'm an idiot. *facepalm*

[bluemazda3]

lol.. :bang next time remember :)

[Soyabean]

Its all good Alex. They arent too expensive i dont think. When i noticed it and couldnt figure what was wrong, I called Rj3 and he immediately told me the problem. Thank goodness

[bluemazda3]

:bang

[sudz]

Hey guys... so Part two comes along:

I was planning to put my summers on in mid April, was gonna order new hub centric rings online.

Well, Shitty 427 potholes have forced my hand early - I have a HUGE bubble on the side of my winter tire from a massive pothole. And the car pulls in one direction. However, the tire is going to blow and I am going to put my summers on now (safer than a tire that's ready to pop!)


How many people don't use hub centric rings? if none, how bad is it to drive without one in place? I am SWAMPED monday tuesday, and am going to pop on the tires tonight. I need to drive to the Go station tomorrow morning, but then Tuesday I have a 70km Commute to Don-mills and york mills from burlington. (that's what worries me)

[sudz]

So far... So good. Put them on and drove around. Pretty normal. I shook the rims up and down as I slowly tightened the bolts. Hopefullythis centered them enough for a few days of driving.

[Egierda]

Theoretically, the rim should centre itself as you tighten the lugs. I've never run hub-centric rings and have no complaints.

[sol_searchin]

Usually if you don't use the appropriate rings it will cause a wobble at around highway speeds.

[Egierda]

Usually if you don't use the appropriate rings it will cause a wobble at around highway speeds.
Think about what you're saying...

The lugs will self-center a truly machined wheel. If you get wobble without rings, it's because your wheels or lugs are cheap and horribly machined, thereby resulting in a non-centered wheel, or your lugs are loose. If your lugs aren't tight enough to hold your wheel on at highway speeds, you've got bigger problems to worry about than a slight wheel wobble.


I've been up to speeds of nearly 200km/h on the track WITHOUT hub-centric rings and I've never experienced symptoms of unbalanced wheels.

[sudz]

Awesome. SO, there is a SLIGHT wobble, at about 85-105 kph - I had this last year too, WITH the rings. There's a local shop called Dream Tire that also does road force balancing - I'll try it out, and get the tires rebalanced as well.

And I'll probably need an alignment, which they also do. I'll go in waving the TM3 flag to see if I can work something out for all TM3 members out west. (its Haverster, just east of appleby.

[froggy]

most likely that same massive pothole that bubbled your tire, (you should have complained to the 407 people about that and taken pictures and such) also probably knocked something out of alignment in you car. Definately get it checked out

[sudz]

Took it to dream tire - Alignment, Balancing, Remount with Hub Centric Ring. Car drives BETTER than it has in the last 50k. I love it again.

Only problems: Front driver strut is pretty much done. Front passenger strut is leaking a bit. Sway bar linkage on rear driver side is bent slightly. Dream Tire let me know that it wasn't a safety thing - But there's a chance it may start to squeak/Clunk loudly.

[McGuyver_3]

Theoretically, the rim should centre itself as you tighten the lugs. I've never run hub-centric rings and have no complaints.

if you tighten the screws by hand, yes they will center themselves out BUT you have to make sure they do. Its kind of a delicate process. Then when centered you can lock the lugs in place. If you use a gun though they will not center themselves out as all the force on the 1 lug will lock the rim in 1 position

[Egierda]

if you tighten the screws by hand, yes they will center themselves out BUT you have to make sure they do. Its kind of a delicate process. Then when centered you can lock the lugs in place. If you use a gun though they will not center themselves out as all the force on the 1 lug will lock the rim in 1 position
What car enthusiast uses an impact to tighten their lugs as you have described? I always torque my lugs down in 3-4 stages and I've never had any issues created by not running hub rings.

[McGuyver_3]

What car enthusiast uses an impact to tighten their lugs as you have described? I always torque my lugs down in 3-4 stages and I've never had any issues created by not running hub rings.

Go work at a dealership. Noone does the wheels by hand myself included. My torque stick does the work and I trust them. Unless they are aftermarket wheels and no centering rings have been provided. Then they are started by hand and zapped down with gun in a star pattern.

[Egierda]

That is why I never trust dealership work. Any mechanic who does not tighten lugs in stages (with or without a gun) won't ever lay a finger on my car. Saving 62 seconds per job is more important than doing something properly. I'm not even going to get into the issue of those shortcuts warping my Stoptech aluminum rotor hats.


I'm not arguing about this topic any more. The lugs will center the rim themselves if installed properly (in stages).

[McGuyver_3]

That is why I never trust dealership work. Any mechanic who does not tighten lugs in stages (with or without a gun) won't ever lay a finger on my car. Saving 62 seconds per job is more important than doing something properly. I'm not even going to get into the issue of those shortcuts warping my Stoptech aluminum rotor hats.


I'm not arguing about this topic any more. The lugs will center the rim themselves if installed properly (in stages).

You keep thinking what you want, Torque sticks are great and they work effectively as long as you do not abuse them.(IE use them to take off bolts) Once the torque sticks hit their designated strength the actual stick starts to twist preventing the bolts from going any further. I am not saying I do not take caution when using my gun but on aftermarket rims without the centric rings you will get it close but their is still a chance to get them off somewhat. Beleive me I have worked at dealers long enough to know

[Egierda]

I know how torque sticks work and it's still 100% possible to over-torque lug nuts while using them. They are not a fail-safe device.

[jova87]

The lugs will center the rim themselves if installed properly (in stages).

can you explain the "in stages " technique in detail please..

[McGuyver_3]

can you explain the "in stages " technique in detail please..

put rim on car put each lug on by hand get a socket and snug the wheel in place while trying to make the rim as centered as possible then tighten
Or just spend 20$ and buy the hub centric rings lol

[Egierda]

can you explain the "in stages " technique in detail please..
I just mean in torque stages. Don't tighten one lug nut down to full torque before moving on to the next. Gradually increase the torque of all lug nuts as you move through the tightening pattern.

Here's the way you should tighten your lugs:
http://www.discounttiredirect.com/images/lugTighteningPattern.gif

FYI, I usually tighten my lugs in 3 torque stages (ie. three tightening cycles); I'm pretty paranoid about warping my aluminum rotor hats.

[jova87]

lol. good thats exactly how i do it anyways ..40lbs..70lbs...90lbs...guess im paranoid anal freek even with my steelies+stocks haha.

[McGuyver_3]

lol. good thats exactly how i do it anyways ..40lbs..70lbs...90lbs...guess im paranoid anal freek even with my steelies+stocks haha.

You are deffinatly paranoid :chuckle

[Egierda]

lol. good thats exactly how i do it anyways ..40lbs..70lbs...90lbs...guess im paranoid anal freek even with my steelies+stocks haha.

That's perfect. Take the extra 20 seconds and torque in stages.

[Charlie S]

What is the torque factor for our wheels?

I intend to remove the snows this week.
Need to be sure I torque the nuts correctly.

[Egierda]

90lbs is what I always torque to for alloy wheels on a car.

[JaYson]

is it just me or is 90ft/lbs almost nothing when using a torque wrench.

in other words it takes almost no force to torque to 90ft/lbs????

( i just tested out my new torque wrench on my lug nuts)

[JaYson]

i can literally "click" the torque wrench with one finger when its set at 90lbs/ft ???

(im obviously a torque wrench n00b, someone lay some knowledge down on me)

[Egierda]

What length torque wrench are you using? Are you sure it's in ft lbs and not inch lbs?


90ft lbs is definitely enough torque to keep your wheels from going anywhere.

[pacmann33]

is it just me or is 90ft/lbs almost nothing when using a torque wrench.

in other words it takes almost no force to torque to 90ft/lbs????

( i just tested out my new torque wrench on my lug nuts)


If you have to ask this, you shouldn't be installing rims.

Not trying to be a dick, it could just lead to yourself and others on the road having a very bad day.

You probably bought an entirely wrong torque wrench for the task of installing lug nuts on a car. I almost guarantee you bought a 3/8 drive torque wrench. You need a 1/2 inch drive torque wrench, and make sure the scale you are looking at on the wrench is ft/lbs, not in/lbs or nm etc etc.

You should have someone who really knows what they're doing give you a lesson on how this task should be completed. I have seen a LOT of people who claim to know what they're doing use some very bad habits while doing it. Also, take advice of others here and torque in at least 2, stages.

EDIT: here is a video showing you two different sizes of torque wrenches, you need the bigger one, and also what 90 ft/lbs looks like, it is way more than one finger. Also tells you a couple things TO do and NOT to do with your torque wrench. he did not show the whole process how how to properly install a rim, just the final tightening stage.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JFp927LfF3A

[jova87]

well i just learned something.... always set the torque wrench back to its lowest setting before storing... good to know... *runs to the garage now*haha

thanks

[JaYson]

yep! stupid mistake, turns out it was inch-lbs., not ft-lbs.

I realized it seemed weird which is why i asked. i also only tested the torque wrench on the lugs, but tightened the lugs back up to how i would normally (w/ the stock wrench, no torque wrench) because it didn't seem right.

i also did ask someone today which led me back to CT to get the right 1/2" torque wrench.

in my defense i did look up the "difference" between a 1/2" vs. 3/8" (obviously beyond the clear adapter/length difference) and...yahoo answers came up with "its mostly just for whatever size adapters/socks you have" - soooo note to self...yahoo answers sucks.

thankfully I'm not dumb enough to drive around with all 4wheels screwed down to 90 inch-lbs lol

thanks all

[JaYson]

If you have to ask this, you shouldn't be installing rims.

Not trying to be a dick, it could just lead to yourself and others on the road having a very bad day.

You probably bought an entirely wrong torque wrench for the task of installing lug nuts on a car. I almost guarantee you bought a 3/8 drive torque wrench. You need a 1/2 inch drive torque wrench, and make sure the scale you are looking at on the wrench is ft/lbs, not in/lbs or nm etc etc.

You should have someone who really knows what they're doing give you a lesson on how this task should be completed. I have seen a LOT of people who claim to know what they're doing use some very bad habits while doing it. Also, take advice of others here and torque in at least 2, stages.

EDIT: here is a video showing you two different sizes of torque wrenches, you need the bigger one, and also what 90 ft/lbs looks like, it is way more than one finger. Also tells you a couple things TO do and NOT to do with your torque wrench. he did not show the whole process how how to properly install a rim, just the final tightening stage.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JFp927LfF3A

I looked this video up and noticed he was pressing enough to move the car, which led me to this thread

[Rob23]

you don't need a fancy torque wrench to put on a set of wheels. i use a crappy 20$ one from CT with the metal rod that tells you what torque your at, and it is a 3/8. after putting my wheels on with it i took out my fancy electric digital torque wrench just to make sure they were torqued to 90 exactly. and thats with the cheapest torque wrench you can buy.