View Full Version : loki's logs
BlueStreak
02-09-2012, 01:57 PM
If your AFRs are dialed in to redline with your MAF calibration then I bet my most coveted limb, $5 and a bag of chips that its your launch control/FFS settings.
If your AFRs are dialed in to redline with your MAF calibration then I bet my most coveted limb, $5 and a bag of chips that its your launch control/FFS settings.
I'm going to adjust those settings back to stock. Actually, I'm going to start from the OTS map and re-add everything back to the current tune and see what happens.
Not that there was any doubt that Fobio was a tuning genius, but Fobio is a tuning genius.
Car is up and running great, just need to start from scratch on a few things and we'll be good to go.
Was gonna do a full mini write up on the problem since it'll be useful to most people but it's 2:35 a.m. and I just won't be able to do the write up justice if I do it now..
If someone could remind me, I'll write it up tomorrow....
I'll give you a teaser/hint tho....MAF CALIBRATION IS IMPORTANT!!!!
~ loki
BlueStreak
02-11-2012, 11:51 AM
Good stuff.
Now when is that 3071 going in? :-)
shit I just wrote up an explanation and it vanished....
Fobio
02-11-2012, 10:59 PM
shit I just wrote up an explanation and it vanished....
dang...isn't the site's new software supposed to have helped with that?
anyway, thanks for the kind words man!
As I mentioned below, car could not go WOT in the lower gears (mainly 1st and 2nd) but sometimes 3rd and even 4th depending on what you're doing
Now that I really think back (after knowing the problem) all this shit started when I re-calibrated my MAF the 2nd time. During the 1st MAF calibration, I was seeing some wonky AFRs while going WOT. Clearly we had to calibrate for WOT. What I did was multiply all my values over 100 g/s equivalent by a 1.07 factor (increased 7%), which did smooth out my WOT AFRs but this would later lead to my problems...here's why.
One day I noticed that the LTFTs were way off (reading -12) so after doing a few MAF logs, it still showed up as -12 so I multiplied the values by 0.88 to compensate. I did, however, not multiply the values passed 100 g/s because after all, my WOT AFRs were solid!!! OH SHIT SON...WHAT DID YOU DO??
so what does this mean....here's a snippet from the MAF calibration table...
MAF VOLTAGE (V) 3.13 3.16 3.20 3.24 3.28 3.32 3.36 3.40 3.44
MASS AIRFLOW (G/S) 74.81 77.93 83.63 87.02 108.89 113.16 116.37 118.90 121.42
So as you can see, within 1 interval from 3.24 V to 3.28 V the airflow jumps from 87.02 g/s to 108.89 g/s...
This was my "breakpoint" where I was trying to adjust for WOT. It is physically impossible for there to be such a huge jump in airflow. So what ended up happening was that when the car reached this point, the MAF is telling the ECU holy shit we need to inject a ton more fuel to keep up with this airflow. Exactly at this point you would see the AFRs drop to 8.7, since the air that it thinks its seeing isn't actually there. The car is unable to ignite this additional fuel and it bogs right down.
Very important thing to take away from this. Yes when you calibrate your MAF, there are given "breakpoints" where you are supposed to make your adjustments, however you cannot have huge peaks at these breakpoints (or at any point on the MAF curve for that matter). The transition needs to be smooth because the airflow is smooth, and short of magically adding another mechanical device to increase the airflow at any point, you cannot have significant jumps in the air between intervals.
It is good practice, therefore, to go through your MAF calibration and have a look at your MAF curve. Is it smooth? if so great. If not, where are the anomilies? Find the interval where the jump occurs and ask yourself does this make sense? you might have to do some horizontal interpolation just to smooth it out...
The end result.
I have reinstated the stock OTS MAF values that night, and then drove 150 km for the ECU to learn the new fuel trims. Right now I'm sitting at ABS 6 without making any adjustments, and I would have done the MAF logs and calibration yesterday but the weather was just not having it.
For further safety, I have also reduced my AFR targets down to 11.0 and will have to recalibrate for WOT as well. This will be done based on the transition Voltage to open loop based on logs rather than an arbitrary number. Again NEED to make sure wherever that transition occurs, if you do need to make adjustments that the transition is still smooth.
Hoping for good weather so I can make the powa again...
Thanks again Fobio for helping me sort this out. If there's anything you'd like to add/correct, please go right ahead.
~ loki
ps. my computer glitched and deleted it, but I saved the txt first!
BlueStreak
02-12-2012, 12:56 PM
Good stuff.
A tidbit of info. Our widebands (or any other wideband) cannot read AFRs richer than 8.5AFR so who knows how rich you may have been. Accuracy also drops off when you go leaner than the 18.0AFR mark as well.
Good stuff.
A tidbit of info. Our widebands (or any other wideband) cannot read AFRs richer than 8.5AFR so who knows how rich you may have been. Accuracy also drops off when you go leaner than the 18.0AFR mark as well.
that's good to know.
Yeh that makes me really wonder how rich it really went....any thoughts on how rich you'd need to get for the fuel not to be able to ignite?
Explains why the plugs were so black...
BlueStreak
02-12-2012, 02:51 PM
Unfortunately it's not as simple as AFR vs. ignition. Airflow (or how much air AND fuel needs to be ignited) plays a roll in whether or not a mixture can be ignited (assuming OEM ignition system).
As an example. On a completely stock MS3, AFRs reach the 9.x region by redline. The ignition system can easily ignite that AFR given stock airflow. Now, if you went big turbo at a high airflow and tried to ignite a 9.x AFR mix, it would be next to impossible.
What you could do is dial in the MAF perfectly until you no longer get blowout. Then compare the g/s at a given voltage and commanded AFR of the old tune to the calibrated g/s at a given voltage and commanded AFR. Then use your engineering mathematical genius to work out the actual AFR of the old tune.
Now when is that 3071 going in? :-)
I have no idea what you're talking about...
Fobio
02-12-2012, 03:00 PM
I have no idea what you're talking about...
lol...apparently, neither does the wife?
horto
02-13-2012, 01:04 PM
glad you got this all sorted out bro... hate pulling my hair out on these types of issues
+1 to fobio and mspeed's genius - similar situation with my car, one problem I couldn't solve, knew the tune was f*(ked, i asked for help, they delivered
BlueStreak
02-13-2012, 01:58 PM
lol...apparently, neither does the wife?
Hahaha!!!
my wife knows everything :)
did a quick MAF log tonight to calibrate the MAF since I started back from scratch.
took a bit off the multiplier to keep it a tad richer rather than running lean. Want to keep the LTFT's in the negatives vs the positives.
LTFTS were showing -3 and then -8 so I multiplied by 1.025 and 1.075 to try and correct it. Also smoothed out the transition breakpoint at 18 g/s.
We'll see how this goes. She's running super rich at the moment...just spitting out black smoker haha
will definitely have to calibrate for WOT since its quite a bit more tha 8% rich. Will have to wait for that tho
Fobio
02-16-2012, 10:42 AM
did a quick MAF log tonight to calibrate the MAF since I started back from scratch.
took a bit off the multiplier to keep it a tad richer rather than running lean. Want to keep the LTFT's in the negatives vs the positives.
LTFTS were showing -3 and then -8 so I multiplied by 1.025 and 1.075 to try and correct it. Also smoothed out the transition breakpoint at 18 g/s.
We'll see how this goes. She's running super rich at the moment...just spitting out black smoker haha
will definitely have to calibrate for WOT since its quite a bit more tha 8% rich. Will have to wait for that tho
chris...at the points where say, your LTFT's show -5%, you actually need to use a 0.95 multiplier to that cell or range of cells. This is I suppose more specific to part-throttle calibration...such as idle and off-idle. Of course, adjusting for AFR's vs. adjusting for LTFT's is different, eventho you're adjusting the same table.
chris...at the points where say, your LTFT's show -5%, you actually need to use a 0.95 multiplier to that cell or range of cells. This is I suppose more specific to part-throttle calibration...such as idle and off-idle. Of course, adjusting for AFR's vs. adjusting for LTFT's is different, eventho you're adjusting the same table.
Now I'm confused....I understand the WOT calibration with AFR actual vs AFR commanded.
But if for example, the LTFT is showing -5% for a given range, doesn't that mean that for that range the car is actually running rich so the ECU is compensating by removing 5% fuel?
If that's the case, wouldn't that mean that for that same range, the mass airflow reading is actually low, since the car is getting less air than it thinks it is, which is why when the ECu injects the fuel, it is reading.......ok
I just thought about it.....
If it is injecting 5% more fuel than the car needs, then the mass airflow reading is higher than it should be which is why the fuel is more...ok got it.
Fack this means that my WOT is way off from my part-throttle, since at WOT I am still seeing readings in the 9's...
fywdyl
02-16-2012, 11:51 AM
Just use the formula...
MAF adjustment = 1 + (ltft%/100)
Just use the formula...
MAF adjustment = 1 + (ltft%/100)
I know, I know....
I just had a brain fart
here are some logs from last night, whatever the AP would record before losing communication
6545
6544
6543
6546
ignore the naming of the files. I believe the only one that was 3rd gear was the one that actually hit the limiter. The rest were 4th gear and I ran out of road...
Targeting 11.0 AFR. Boost is targeting 19 psi and tapers to 18 at 6500 rpm.
The MAF is not calibrated yet for WOT and the MAF is calibrated for partial throttle, but the LTFTs keep changing. I'm convinced there's an exhaust leak between the turbo and the downpipe. I'm going to try and get hold of a new gasket. Might also take the FMIC piping apart and put it back together, if there's space in Paul's driveway tomorrow.
I'm not exactly sure why the LTFTs didn't show -0.16 until after 4000 rpms or so, but I believe there might be some mechanical stuff going on which needs to be addressed before getting accurate logs.
Mr Wilson
03-16-2012, 10:21 AM
If Paul's driveway doesn't work out let me know and we can go over it at my place (for the FMIC).
fywdyl
03-16-2012, 10:59 AM
here are some logs from last night, whatever the AP would record before losing communication
ignore the naming of the files. I believe the only one that was 3rd gear was the one that actually hit the limiter. The rest were 4th gear and I ran out of road...
Targeting 11.0 AFR. Boost is targeting 19 psi and tapers to 18 at 6500 rpm.
The MAF is not calibrated yet for WOT and the MAF is calibrated for partial throttle, but the LTFTs keep changing. I'm convinced there's an exhaust leak between the turbo and the downpipe. I'm going to try and get hold of a new gasket. Might also take the FMIC piping apart and put it back together, if there's space in Paul's driveway tomorrow.
I'm not exactly sure why the LTFTs didn't show -0.16 until after 4000 rpms or so, but I believe there might be some mechanical stuff going on which needs to be addressed before getting accurate logs.
You are not targeting 11 AFRs.... 11.8? Taper to 11.6?
You are not targeting 11 AFRs.... 11.8? Taper to 11.6?
no, it's targeting 11.0....
seriously need to calibrate the MAF for WOT.
and the "tapering" you're seeing at the end is caused by the KR so the car is adding fuel which is richening the AFRs
fywdyl
03-16-2012, 11:06 AM
no, it's targeting 11.0....
seriously need to calibrate the MAF for WOT.
Oh... yeah def need some serious MAF cal.
Or did you miss a table perhaps? Cuz it's pretty consistent if you're targetting 11.8.
Oh... yeah def need some serious MAF cal.
Or did you miss a table perhaps? Cuz it's pretty consistent if you're targetting 11.8.
Nope, checked through them all. Actually did miss part of a table before and was targeting 11.5 for the bottom part of it, but it's definitely 11's accross the board now
BlueStreak
03-16-2012, 12:04 PM
Careful Chris. With a lean MAF curve comes underestimating calculated load which as a result, commands more aggressive timing.
Both of those things together sets you up for engine failure.
Careful Chris. With a lean MAF curve comes underestimating calculated load which as a result, commands more aggressive timing.
Both of those things together sets you up for engine failure.
what do you mean underestimating the calculated load?
yeh, I really did not want to do those pulls until the MAF was calibrated for WOT, but you have to do a pull to calibrate it. Will definitely calibrate to make sure it's not lean and then go from there
actually nevermind, obviously don't know the math behind it (not sure if anyone really knows how load is calculated) but that makes sense.
Fobio
03-16-2012, 12:43 PM
actually nevermind, obviously don't know the math behind it (not sure if anyone really knows how load is calculated) but that makes sense.
you should make plans to come hang out with me sometime this weekend.
you should make plans to come hang out with me sometime this weekend.
let's do it
so no-one has answered this yet, but why did the log not go straight into the -0.16 LTFTs until halfway through the log?
how can I tell then from these logs exactly when the car went into open loop?
BlueStreak
03-16-2012, 12:58 PM
Your closed loop exit is at value X. Because your MAF curve is underestimating airflow and therefore calculated load, your closed loop exit happens much later.
The exit still happens at value X but it is an incorrect calculated load given airflow and RPM.
Our ECU contains connections to calculated load in almost every table required to make (more) power and just manage overall driveability. It all starts with a proper MAF curve tho. If the curve is off 99% of the tune will be off.
EDIT: The ECU enters open loop when LTFTs are -0.16.
so no-one has answered this yet, but why did the log not go straight into the -0.16 LTFTs until halfway through the log?
how can I tell then from these logs exactly when the car went into open loop?
I can't help but assume that this was pointed at Vince and I. As far as I know, we are the two that have the most in-depth knowledge about tuning the MS3 ECU on TM3. Despite not answering all of your questions, we have still offered a wealth of information to yours and everybody's benefit. And to be honest, I didn't answer your closed loop exit question because I was on the throne when I responded on my phone and was more focused on your immediate engine health (post about calc load).
We're here to help.
fywdyl
03-16-2012, 02:59 PM
I don't know if you want to try this out for your MAF cal, but I did this recently and so far so good.
I took the OTS MAF table (for whatever intake you're running) and then plugged it into Excel and fit a curve to it (for me it was a 3rd order polynomial). Then I took the fitted values and replaced the MAF table to smooth it out. And now I'm in the process of doing a regular MAF cal with this new MAF curve and so far so good.
Fobio
03-16-2012, 03:02 PM
I don't know if you want to try this out for your MAF cal, but I did this recently and so far so good.
I took the OTS MAF table (for whatever intake you're running) and then plugged it into Excel and fit a curve to it (for me it was a 3rd order polynomial). Then I took the fitted values and replaced the MAF table to smooth it out. And now I'm in the process of doing a regular MAF cal with this new MAF curve and so far so good.
I'm interested in this curve. Please show me next time we meet. I have a theory about the MAF vs. the VE table that no one else cared to discuss. Basically, if you run a "perfect curve" then use the 3-D VE table to compensate for variations of airflow based on the new VE of your engine due to mods, then you'd have more precise (and tedious) corrections. But that's just theory for now.
fywdyl
03-16-2012, 03:15 PM
I'm interested in this curve. Please show me next time we meet. I have a theory about the MAF vs. the VE table that no one else cared to discuss. Basically, if you run a "perfect curve" then use the 3-D VE table to compensate for variations of airflow based on the new VE of your engine due to mods, then you'd have more precise (and tedious) corrections. But that's just theory for now.
I'll post it up in my thread when I get home. If not tonight, then sometime this weekend.
I much prefer to discuss all this stuff in person instead of back and forth in these threads
I'll be seeing some of you tomorrow at Nator North (aka Canada's Natorland. f**** those americans on MSF that don't get that joke, Paul)
COBB FMIC UPDATE
to those that purchased the Cobb FMIC and have installed so far, have a look at the shifter weight to see if it is coming into contact with the intercooler piping.
Mine is touching when in reverse and it has started to eat at the piping just a touch, I will have to grind it down at that corner next time I am at Nator North
got 2 CEL's today
U2064 and P2188
doesn't seem to be a big deal after I checked them out, but still weird...
also the car has been sputtering at partial throttle in 5th gear. Need to get to the bottom of that as well, as soon as I get some time to breathe
Mr Wilson
04-11-2012, 11:12 PM
For the P2188 check for leaks around the maf and check for leaks in the BPV tubing.
From Vince (2 years ago)
U2064 is nothing to worry about...sometimes they come with other codes like 0100 and 0101...all harmless.
Just reset it with the AP.
U2064 click (http://www.aboutautomobile.com/DTC/U2064)
thanks Paul
dunno if I'm gonna make it to AA meet tomorrow, sooo tired....
fywdyl
04-11-2012, 11:19 PM
thanks Paul
dunno if I'm gonna make it to AA meet tomorrow, sooo tired....
Tmrw is tmrw, you're only tired now...
Tmrw is tmrw, you're only tired now...
I've been tired since 1995...
went and did some quick 3rd gear logs after the Timmies meet
Car felt really good. Still not where it should be, but felt good.
Targeting AFR of 11.0, boost targeting 19psi and down to 18psi from 6000rpm
Still not sure why it doesn't look like the car is getting into open loop until the high 4000's rpms...
Anyways my wastegate is maxed to shit so really not hitting those boost targets. for now...not getting that crazy high end knock I was seeing before which is a good thing.
6914
6915
6916
Edit: I also haven't calibrated the MAF for WOT yet since I restarted with the new map
fywdyl
04-16-2012, 12:06 PM
went and did some quick 3rd gear logs after the Timmies meet
Car felt really good. Still not where it should be, but felt good.
Targeting AFR of 11.0, boost targeting 19psi and down to 18psi from 6000rpm
Still not sure why it doesn't look like the car is getting into open loop until the high 4000's rpms...
Anyways my wastegate is maxed to shit so really not hitting those boost targets. for now...not getting that crazy high end knock I was seeing before which is a good thing.
6914
6915
6916
Edit: I also haven't calibrated the MAF for WOT yet since I restarted with the new map
How long has it been since you've flashed this map? I have noticed that if the LTFTs haven't settled yet, your OL transition may not happen at the correct load. At the same time, you may be missing the 2.96 LTFTs from wherever all the way to redline.
Not hitting boost targets could be because of a leak, and/or since the FMIC flows more it'll need more WG to get to the targets.
Oh, and I noticed that at around 2,500 to 4,000 rpm your throttle position isn't pegged at 75+. Was DSC off?
(correct me if I'm wrong pros)
Fobio
04-16-2012, 12:53 PM
How long has it been since you've flashed this map? I have noticed that if the LTFTs haven't settled yet, your OL transition may not happen at the correct load. At the same time, you may be missing the 2.96 LTFTs from wherever all the way to redline.
Not hitting boost targets could be because of a leak, and/or since the FMIC flows more it'll need more WG to get to the targets.
Oh, and I noticed that at around 2,500 to 4,000 rpm your throttle position isn't pegged at 75+. Was DSC off?
(correct me if I'm wrong pros)
Agreed.
1. Your logs show that thru a pull, you don't crest over 2.0 load.
2. "Throttle Position %" goes up, dips and trend back up to ~75%...that is major wonky. Likely culprit is either DSC or SWAS pulling TP due to traction issues...this is one reason why we recommend 4th gear logs to limit traction issues at spool-on.
3. Your AFR's are not overly lean and in fact, stays on the rich side....however, theydo fluctuate and that will have an effect on load calculations.
4. You don't hit OL until late in the pull. Could be mismatched tables or combination of small offsets.
At this point, esp with what you shared with me this past wknd, might be worthwhile to start off with a clean map, update ATR w/ beta release and re-apply your tweaks to a new map.
guys dont' have time to post now, but will start over again from a clean OTS map.
I have a feeling there is a leak at the exhaust mani or turbo/dp which is causing boost to leak or at least not get the pressure I want, since the WGDC is pretty much pegged at 99% and it was never that high before meaning there was always room to go..
will discuss later
breakfasteatre
04-16-2012, 06:09 PM
we did a smoke leak test on snotrockets car and found a bunch of leaks, and he was having trouble hitting boost targets.
something to keep in mind
Mr Wilson
04-16-2012, 06:11 PM
^^^ We were talking about doing something like that. Was it Mike's tester?
breakfasteatre
04-16-2012, 06:21 PM
snapon at the dynoshop heh
Mr Wilson
04-16-2012, 06:24 PM
Ahhhhh.....alright Chris short drive down to Jersey.
2 third gear logs from tonight. The first one had knock almost all the way through...plugs are probably toast. I hope.
2nd one had less knock, the high knock at redline is the car hitting the limiter.
7311
7312
Snotrocket
05-24-2012, 06:21 AM
2 third gear logs from tonight. The first one had knock almost all the way through...plugs are probably toast. I hope.
2nd one had less knock, the high knock at redline is the car hitting the limiter.
7311
7312
Yea, i can't see any reason why you would have real knock unless you ended up with some bad fuel... Have you had this knock on multiple tanks?
Booostin
05-24-2012, 09:08 AM
Is that a 94 tune?
Is that a 94 tune?
91 octane map
First time doing a log in the warm weather. Wasn't knocking in winter, but I have a feeling the plugs might be going.
Also the Afrs are wonky and the MAF voltage actually drops back down at one point. Will pull the plugs for a look, and also go back to a tweaked map with stock MAF values to see if that makes a difference. Have a third log to check which has a few short pulls and the remainder of the drive home. It might show something. The knock was going away as the car heat up more though, which Fobio believes could suggest a leak.
Hopefully we can do a leak test on sunday
fywdyl
05-24-2012, 10:01 AM
91 octane map
First time doing a log in the warm weather. Wasn't knocking in winter, but I have a feeling the plugs might be going.
Also the Afrs are wonky and the MAF voltage actually drops back down at one point. Will pull the plugs for a look, and also go back to a tweaked map with stock MAF values to see if that makes a difference. Have a third log to check which has a few short pulls and the remainder of the drive home. It might show something. The knock was going away as the car heat up more though, which Fobio believes could suggest a leak.
Hopefully we can do a leak test on sunday
I really hope the knock is just from the plugs. I wanna see big things happen.
BlueStreak
05-24-2012, 01:19 PM
I don't see anything out of the ordinary here save for the spark advance is a little aggressive given you're running 91 octane.
The dips you see in AFR are primarily due to the KR. If you get >.7* KR, the ECU adds fuel as well. Tweaks to the MAF curve should only be made when you don't have a boost leak and are not knocking.
Does your clutch pedal vibrate at all when it's depressed by 1-2"?
What are your AFR targets and what plugs do you have in there?
I don't see anything out of the ordinary here save for the spark advance is a little aggressive given you're running 91 octane.
The dips you see in AFR are primarily due to the KR. If you get >.7* KR, the ECU adds fuel as well. Tweaks to the MAF curve should only be made when you don't have a boost leak and are not knocking.
Does your clutch pedal vibrate at all when it's depressed by 1-2"?
What are your AFR targets and what plugs do you have in there?
does the clutch pedal vibrate? no idea, but I can check that this afternoon.
Running the ITV 22's but they were installed beginning of winter...remember when we all met up at Jimmy's that day? that's when I installed the plugs....
I think something is up because no matter what, have not been able to dial in the LTFTs.
Fack_Dude
05-24-2012, 01:39 PM
I don't see anything out of the ordinary here save for the spark advance is a little aggressive given you're running 91 octane.
The dips you see in AFR are primarily due to the KR. If you get >.7* KR, the ECU adds fuel as well. Tweaks to the MAF curve should only be made when you don't have a boost leak and are not knocking.
Does your clutch pedal vibrate at all when it's depressed by 1-2"?
What are your AFR targets and what plugs do you have in there?
Vibrating clutch means. A bent rod. :rant
Vibrating clutch means. A bent rod. :rant
rod is not bent
S.F.W.
05-24-2012, 02:15 PM
rod is not bent
Will your wife confirm ?
BlueStreak
05-24-2012, 02:16 PM
HAHAHAHA!
Turok
05-24-2012, 02:20 PM
http://www.matts-workshop.com/Mustang/Images/bent_rod.jpg
Fobio
05-24-2012, 02:24 PM
it's twice as bad when you get burned by the Banana Man...worse than what the grill can do to burgers etc...lol...
tho the symptoms look similar to what I may have experienced with a busted turbo/mani gasket, it's hard to say that that is your case...having said that, I have attributed my failure to hard tracking (running hot, which causes it to run rich etc. Looking at it from that perspect, the only common thread is running rich. If you do confirm that it's that gasket, then we may confirm a common culprit. before that tho, I would be hesitant to confirm that your symptoms share a cause with my issue.
Regardless, I think your car is due for an all around boost leak test. I'd focus on turbo inlet, and post-turbo thru to the TB. And lasting, turbo/DP/mani connections. This is a lot easier with something like a smoke machine.
EDIT: I'm pretty sure you don't have a bent rod...
Nator smoke machine = boyracer puffing on 14 cigarettes at once
boyracer
05-24-2012, 02:37 PM
Nator smoke machine = boyracer puffing on 14 cigarettes at once
LOL, How did I get thrown into this
LOL, How did I get thrown into this
because you smoke
I'm going to reflash with the uncalibrated MAF tune
I knew the car felt stiff today...
7330
car is running super lean
here is the log again with AFR targets
7331
Snotrocket
05-25-2012, 10:58 PM
Id say post the map but i don't think i would be able to view it with gen 2 ATR...
Id say post the map but i don't think i would be able to view it with gen 2 ATR...
that map is essentially an OTS stage 2
Snotrocket
05-25-2012, 11:09 PM
have you done a compression test lately?
have you done a compression test lately?
last time we did it was fine
Snotrocket
05-26-2012, 12:54 AM
were you having these problems then?
were you having these problems then?
no, I can do another compression test tomorrow.
I'm thinking its the plugs. Will change those tomorrow as well
Snotrocket
05-26-2012, 08:44 PM
Results?
Results?
180+ psi across the board
Fack_Dude
05-27-2012, 01:48 AM
Did you change those plugs too?
Did you change those plugs too?
Yup
And breakfasteatre put my old plugs in his car....
Fack_Dude
05-27-2012, 02:31 AM
Yup
And breakfasteatre put my old plugs in his car....
And how does the car run now with the new logs?
breakfasteatre
05-27-2012, 02:48 AM
plugs looked fine, and my car runs well with them.
And how does the car run now with the new logs?
It really don't know to be honest, I was rushing to get to a dinner lol
Car is idling/cruising in the AFR 14.1 - 14.5 range
It will not hit the 14.7 its supposed to
As a result only got 350km out of the last tank, but the fuel economy is the least of my concerns.
Any thought?
Fobio
06-14-2012, 11:20 AM
tighten your shit...give me your car...
BlueStreak
06-14-2012, 11:29 AM
Boost leak check homie.
I get that kind of mileage when I'm boosting my setup so you definitely shouldn't be getting that cruising.
Snotrocket
06-14-2012, 11:46 AM
Any CELs?
no CELs
Its gotta be a leak and its over/undercompensating in cycles maybe. Was watching afr gauge just now and just cruising along the city it was cycling lean/rich constantly..
Fobio
06-14-2012, 12:47 PM
no CELs
Its gotta be a leak and its over/undercompensating in cycles maybe. Was watching afr gauge just now and just cruising along the city it was cycling lean/rich constantly..
the heat...well, relatively warm weather and the heat cycling is what's causing the loosening and tightening or the clamps on their own. as demonstrated by alex over the wknd...you need to tighten everything, heat cycle (go for a hard boot)...re-tighten when everything's hot...then double-check again when it cools down.
MajesticBlueNTO
06-14-2012, 02:44 PM
the heat...well, relatively warm weather and the heat cycling is what's causing the loosening and tightening or the clamps on their own. as demonstrated by alex over the wknd...you need to tighten everything, heat cycle (go for a hard boot)...re-tighten when everything's hot...then double-check again when it cools down.
i was gonna say "T-bolt clamp that bitch" ...but i remembered loki has a Cobb FMIC with T-bolt clamps
...nothing else to add, moving along now
changed a bolt on the downpipe ($14 for stud and bolt thanks Mazda....), serviced the BPV, cleaned the MAF sensor.
AFRs were still wonky.
car is running crazy hot.
Picked up a dashawk from -cj- and as soon as we plugged in while at Jimmy's, the ECT warning went off. Engine Coolant Temp of 104 degrees celcius. That's 219 degrees F, with only a short drive on the 404.
Jimmy suggested putting the heat shield back on the manifold. did that, without having to remove my FMIC hot-pipe or cut the TMIC support bracket (skillz)
Started the car yesterday afternoon and drove to the end of my block and the ECT had reached 81 degrees C ( 178 degrees F). So there's definitely an issue with cooling. Fobio suggested getting the engine coolant checked, so I'm going to try that today, possibly flush it and replace it. It's probably never been done and now the car has 75k on the odo..
anyone can think of anything else to look for? Maybe the fan isn't kicking in to help cool the radiator, though that would not explain why the car is getting so hot so fast.
Thrizzl3
07-09-2012, 11:52 AM
just a random question although this might not have to do with your situation. Say you are driving for a while on a hot day..you park the car. Does the fan activate after you turn off the car?
fywdyl
07-09-2012, 12:00 PM
just a random question although this might not have to do with your situation. Say you are driving for a while on a hot day..you park the car. Does the fan activate after you turn off the car?
Are you asking a general question or are you asking Chris specifically?
Yes the fan turns on sometimes, but I usually let the car sit for a bit before I turn it off, esp on a hot day.
Chris, at least you're making some progress. Maybe the k04 is too hot for the car... you need a cooler turbo....
Thrizzl3
07-09-2012, 12:03 PM
Are you asking a general question or are you asking Chris specifically?
Yes the fan turns on sometimes, but I usually let the car sit for a bit before I turn it off, esp on a hot day.
Chris, at least you're making some progress. Maybe the k04 is too hot for the car... you need a cooler turbo....
i wait a good minute before turning off the car and the fan still comes on but only for about 10-15 seconds then shuts off..
i wait a good minute before turning off the car and the fan still comes on but only for about 10-15 seconds then shuts off..
yes the fan comes on after you turn the car off, though I need to check if mine is still doing that recently. But before, everytime I turn of the car, the fan would kick in.
Mr Wilson
07-09-2012, 12:39 PM
Were those temps. from the 404 while you were driving or stopped. Mine hits 104 in traffic easily. Our fmic also dont help. On msf some have built ducting to direct more air to the rad and removing the rear weatherstripping.
here is a link to msf thread sent to me by Ami, thanks.
http://www.mazdaspeedforums.org/forum/f505/coolant-temps-117863/
seems like hitting these temps. is somewhat normal, however, my car is hitting these temps. while driving on the highway for 5 mins at highway speed.
if you read through, and this was something I also noticed while going through ATR, is that the ECU will pull timing at these temps. In the range of 2 degrees of timing. And you can feel it.
yeh mine is at 104 at highway speed and holding steady.
turned the heat on full blast to bring down the temps.
also, drove from my house to the sobeys and hit 180 F. that's like 300 yards of driving.
S.F.W.
07-09-2012, 12:51 PM
Could your thermostat be non functional ?
Could your thermostat be non functional ?
I'll have to ask my thermostat when I get home
S.F.W.
07-09-2012, 01:25 PM
I'll have to ask my thermostat when I get home
thanks ;) Just from reading on MSF, someone was having similar issues, ended up the thermostat needed to be replaced.
Booostin
07-09-2012, 01:39 PM
thanks ;) Just from reading on MSF, someone was having similar issues, ended up the thermostat needed to be replaced.
Same here... engine temps were fauked and when I put in a new thermostat everything was cherry.
Same here... engine temps were fauked and when I put in a new thermostat everything was cherry.
thanks ;) Just from reading on MSF, someone was having similar issues, ended up the thermostat needed to be replaced.
going to give Jimmy a call. I somehow remember him not dealing with coolant flushing etc. any more.
J_Logik
07-09-2012, 03:55 PM
I hope you find the source Loki, but thermostat sounds like the culprit.
I hope you find the source Loki, but thermostat sounds like the culprit.
S.F.W has been kind enough to pick up a thermostat for me, booked an apt. to see jimmy on Saturday.
:)
Turok
07-09-2012, 04:13 PM
Nice, SFW ftw
BlueStreak
07-09-2012, 05:31 PM
I just think its the hot weather Chris. If its not climbing above 220*F, you're golden and the cooling system is doing its thing.
I've had the car run hotter in the 240*F range when I was doing Time Attack. Other than that, I have never ever had it this high putting around town.
I just think its the hot weather Chris. If its not climbing above 220*F, you're golden and the cooling system is doing its thing.
I've had the car run hotter in the 240*F range when I was doing Time Attack. Other than that, I have never ever had it this high putting around town.
I'm not saying the high temps aren't normal, it's just that they're sustained high temps.
I'll take the car for a spin tonight and keep an eye on them, either way I've got the new thermostat we can pop in and see if that solves anything also.
horto
07-09-2012, 06:10 PM
strange... i noticed right after i put in the fmic my ECT was running hotter than normal (pre-fmic)... especially at idle, somewhere around 217.F. I know this because my dashhawk turns yellow at ECT > 217.F** (e.g. hey, you're heatsoaked!)
i just chalked it up to the fmic blocking the rad
** pretty sure it's 217.F or thereabouts. Don't recall what I originally set the alert at.
edit: will monitor my drive home
boyracer
07-10-2012, 07:01 AM
^^^Que?
Fack_Dude
07-10-2012, 07:09 AM
Le rapport*de*to fill in the concernant le livre numérique envoyer des depuis : saisissez de été fondée en. Re: passeport et carte aux zones réglementées des incompréhension entre nous: quand la comparaison avec les (c'est un peu flou enclenché le principe du pour juste un lecteur de papiers d'identite et en et la médecine.
what the faccck?
fywdyl
07-10-2012, 10:34 AM
Why does loki's thread always get spam?
BTW, I just checked my ECT driving to work. Around 187-190 the whole way and then by the very end it was around 207. Stop and go city driving. I think it's around 24-26 outside.
Why does loki's thread always get spam?
BTW, I just checked my ECT driving to work. Around 187-190 the whole way and then by the very end it was around 207. Stop and go city driving. I think it's around 24-26 outside.
How were you BAT's? Mine reached 160 F by the time I got to the parking garage downtown
fywdyl
07-10-2012, 11:14 AM
How were you BAT's? Mine reached 160 F by the time I got to the parking garage downtown
Shoot, didn't check those. I'll check the numbers on my drive home, and it's usually hotter during the drive home.
fywdyl
07-10-2012, 06:51 PM
Loki:
Starting temps:
~97 BAT, ~105 ECT
Car warmed up (according to oil temp, around 10 min of driving):
~125 BAT, ~185 ECT
Rest of the drive home:
~117-145 BAT, depending on cruising, under boost, idle, ~187-197 ECT
After arrived at home:
~145 BAT, ~206 ECT
Done with A/C on. TMIC btw.
Mr Wilson
07-10-2012, 07:36 PM
I can check mine tomorrow. Just know that the fan seems to kick in at 103 in traffic and may blink to 104 before going back down to 102/3. Otherwise, hwy it's around high 80's, and city moving in the low 90's.
to the guys running the dashawks, switch to "english" so that it shows in degrees F. Simply because ATR has everything in degrees F.
But Mr. Wilson those are similar to mine except when I'm moving it doesn't really go back down....lol
seems like the FMIC guys are running about 5 - 10 degrees F hotter than the TMIC guys (ECT)
fywdyl
07-10-2012, 10:46 PM
Yeah, when I'm moving, the ECT def goes down. Good thing Ami got a hold of that new thermostat for you.
another thing I'm going to try either tomorrow or thurs, is do a MAF swap with Horto.
Get both cars up to operating temps, switch MAFs and see what the AFRs do.
that was an idea from BlueStreak. He's full of great ideas!
speed77
07-11-2012, 06:55 PM
I usually see around 210-214 F in heavy traffic on a hot day, moving or not. It takes a km or two of "normal" driving for the ECT to get back down to normal cruising temps, usually around 183-187 F for me depending on ambient temp.
Update:
Discussing with BlueStreak, we both topped up our coolant and both of us noticed a drop in ECTs. Yes the car is still running hot like everyone else, but now I'm noticing that the temps do drop instead of being pegged at 217 F. Anyway I have a brand new thermostat sitting on my shelf now.
As for the AFR's, I started over tonight with a fresh OTS Stage 2 + SF + TIH + IC 93 Oct map, made all my usual changes, and now the AFR's at idle are bang on 14.7
they still flutter around under higher cruising loads which tells me that there is in fact a leak somewhere, which means I still have to search for that leak....fun..
On another note, installed camber arms at Jimmy's on Saturday. Right rear was still bottoming out, so we removed the fender guard. Problem solved.
Now I can go get the wheels aligned and save my left tire from camber wear
fywdyl
07-17-2012, 12:30 AM
Have you checked all the welds for leaks?
Have you checked all the welds for leaks?
not yet, I think it's a gasket
and in order to cause the car to run not at 14.7 at idle, there must have been a conflict with one or more of the tables. I'm curious which one, though nothing was changed so it's as if the map went wonky all of a sudden.
Fobio
07-17-2012, 02:06 AM
y u no install T-stat at Jimmy's with camber arms!?!
any map getting wonky all of a sudden is obviously not the map and likely mechanical as you have arrived at. the sudden change, is likely due to this extended heatwave exasperating the heat expansion of the leak. at this point, I still highliy doubt that you blew a gasket unless you had to remove the turbo/manifold gasket. likely, you might have a leak post turbo pro O2 sensor, or the DP/turbo gasket....I assume there's a gasket?...lol...
how's the health of your coolant? at this point, I also don't think it's a tuning issue...if it ain't running finr on a OTS map, then there's something else and tuning around it could introduce more gremlins to chase.
I didn't change the thermostat because after noticing that the car was cooling after topping up the coolant (it was almost 1/2 inch below full) I figured that the thermostat was fine.
I do agree that the coolant might need changing since it's probably original.
There's defnitely a gasket between the dp and the turbo, I checked the old dp to make sure it wasn't stuck on there. :)
Gasket might be gone or the bolts might just be loose. Anyway I've ordered new ATP studs and ATP copper bolts so will change those out and see if it makes a difference. Might even do that at the same time as the new turbo install
Fobio
07-17-2012, 01:33 PM
hope you get sorted out Chris!
All of TM3 is rootin' for ya...esp the guys you trolled hard, since they prolly can't handle it no more...hahahahaha....
hope you get sorted out Chris!
All of TM3 is rootin' for ya...esp the guys you trolled hard, since they prolly can't handle it no more...hahahahaha....
haha
well Vince as you and I both know, the map was working great initially...
I have a feeling I got drunk one night and changed something, and it screwed everything up!!
edit: I think all of TM3 wants to see my car explode with me in it...
another thing that shows the car is happier, is that we all know that the trip computer is useless, but you can still track changes relative to what it should normally show (even if what it shows is wrong..)
My trip computer always showed around 8.7 L/100 km which really meant I was getting 10L/100 km.
Over the past few weeks it was pegged at 11L/100km and as a result I was getting about 360km per tank just putting around the place. Now today its back in the 8's.
problem has reappeared as you know..
read this on MSF
"It had an effect on my car. I ran without it for about 3 or 4 days and the car was running like overall shit and very rich. My trims were all over the place and the exhaust sounded fat. As soon as I got the new sensor and threw it in, my car was instantly hitting my AFRs and the exhaust note had a noticeable difference to it. "
completely unrelated reason for asking the question, but the answers seem to be relevant to my problem
http://www.mazdaspeedforums.org/forum/f11/no-secondary-o2-sensor-102543/
just threw the 2187 code - too lean at idle, followed by a 2188 code - too rich at idle.
STFTs at -25%.
going to have to adjust the intake again. Moral of this story is do not use a corksport turbo inlet pipe with anything but the corksport sri. The different size diameters causes nothing but problems.
I think I'm going to remove the intake manifold and fuel rail again and put it all back together
this issue with the knock sensor going crazy only started up after I did the IM work.
fywdyl
11-10-2012, 12:01 AM
I think I'm going to remove the intake manifold and fuel rail again and put it all back together
this issue with the knock sensor going crazy only started up after I did the IM work.
Nator molasses again? We'll just have to do it w/ the door closed.
Nator molasses again? We'll just have to do it w/ the door closed.
yeh I'm down. I'll bring a heater haha
Snotrocket
11-10-2012, 12:08 AM
I have a hot tub up and running and many sexy ladies that are anxious to use it...... Just sayin.....
fywdyl
11-10-2012, 12:33 AM
I have a hot tub up and running and many sexy ladies that are anxious to use it...... Just sayin.....
If by sexy ladies you mean those little girls that were visiting your place while Dave and I were there... I'll pass...
ha ha.
Thrizzl3
11-10-2012, 12:34 AM
Loki ripping shit apart again! wear gloves this time
Loki ripping shit apart again! wear gloves this time
I don't wear gloves
Snotrocket
11-10-2012, 01:34 AM
If by sexy ladies you mean those little girls that were visiting your place while Dave and I were there... I'll pass...
ha ha.
They have a mom you know!
boyracer
11-10-2012, 01:38 AM
If by sexy ladies you mean those little girls that were visiting your place while Dave and I were there... I'll pass...
ha ha.
They have a mom you know!
8319
Thrizzl3
11-10-2012, 01:39 AM
LOL!
Snotrocket
11-10-2012, 01:42 AM
If by sexy ladies you mean those little girls that were visiting your place while Dave and I were there... I'll pass...
ha ha.
Those girls were just using me for candy anyway :(
boyracer
11-10-2012, 01:44 AM
*fixed*
Those girls were just using me as candy anyway :(
Fack_Dude
11-10-2012, 01:46 AM
If by sexy ladies you mean those little girls that were visiting your place while Dave and I were there... I'll pass...
ha ha.
Jailbate is better than masterbate. Lol
Thrizzl3
11-10-2012, 01:46 AM
*fixed*
now that's just wrong...have you seen snotrocket lately
loki is going to delete these posts..because thread hijacking lol
did a bit of tinkering today
I have the feeling that the fuel pressure sensor isn't fully tightened but I cant get to that without removing the power steering pump so will tackle that another time.
Checked the spark plugs and all but cylinder 2 were gapped at 0.028. Cylinder 2 had worn down/moved and was now at 0.032.
Did compression test and the were all at 190 - 195 psi.
Checked the fuel pressure at idle and it was at 430 psi so that was fine..
As suggested by BlueWaffle, I checked the hosing from the turbo outlet for oil and there was none in the hose or the turbo.
Car again is targetting 14.5AFR without fluctuating so next step I'll try the primary O2 sensor.
why we run catch can's in our speeds
8322
Thrizzl3
11-11-2012, 06:57 PM
Still need to empty mine
And connected...
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/05/12/umubaneg.jpg
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/05/12/umujyju8.jpg
mazdaspeedemon3
05-11-2014, 09:19 PM
what is that orange stuff?
Copper gasket
I want zero chance of leaks
Snotrocket
05-13-2014, 12:38 PM
Copper gasket
I want zero chance of leaks
Worried about AFRs being off or something?
Fack_Dude
05-13-2014, 02:35 PM
You know it
Have another kid bro.
Fobio
05-14-2014, 01:28 PM
Copper gasket
I want zero chance of leaks
One last time.
http://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--dfrjXbSh--/c_fit,fl_progressive,q_80,w_636/tccchivslsapsxoajexo.jpg
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