What would it take to swap the 2.5l into a gen 1?

[a_ahmed]

I am curious has anyone done it?

As far as I know the transmission mounting and the blocks themselves are identical between the 2.0, 2.3, 2.5 and 2.3turbo motors? Is it not?

[Booter22]

i would think it could be done. i dont think anyone has done it. not that i have heard.

[Nickzgrl]

if yarnbah got a speed3 engine and trans running in a sedan then you will have no issue gettin a 2.5 to work....but are you willing to spend the man hours and the money to make it work?

[a_ahmed]

The 2.3 liter is a piece of shit engine, I threw a rod through the block last year and the engine was eating oil. The newly swapped engine is eating oil too. These engines SUCK and I have gone all over the internet with people reporting how they eat oil faster than fuel. One guy mentions 1.5liters per 1000 kilometers. All these guys regular driving, regular interval oil changes with synthetic at 5000km, some even earlier. Etc...

Everyone says the same thing, mazda denies any fault with the engine design, APA has thousands of reports on these engines blowing, consuming oil even with grandma driving, etc...

It seems no one seems to have these issues with the 2.3liter turbo, the 2.0 NA and the 2.5 NA... only the POS 2.3 NA.

Also from what I've seen the ancient 2.3l NA costs 2000~ while the 2.0 and 2.5 can be had for <1000 some even have been lucky to find them for under 500 bux. Go figure...

[Chrisinski]

Doable. Not sure if time and effort would be worth it. Why not put a speed engine in instead? Then the optio. To turbo is there.

[a_ahmed]

So pissed at Mazda and their lying out their ass, I know from last year I'm not the only one with the issue, I googled and went through many forums even stateside with the same issues reported, rod bearing failure, rod knock, complete engine failure, burning oil, starvation, etc....:

http://www.apa.ca/MazdaEngines.asp


Non turbo 2.3L engine on Mazda 3 and 6: 2004-2007

The engine may begin to burn oil seemingly all of a sudden at 80,000 to 100,000 km. The consumer would likely be unaware of the condition unless they check the oil regularly. If the oil drops below 2 litres in the crankcase, intermittent oil starvation begins to occur, typically first at the location of the number 1 connecting rod -- by this time internal damage is severe. If the consumer does not stop driving the vehicle, the rod can fail completely and pierces a whole in the side of the block.

The cause appears to be gradual overheating of the engine, due to 1) an internal defect in the catalytic converter that can plug up over time OR 2) the catalytic convertor plugs up over time from burned oil in the exhaust stream. There may be other causes.

Failures appear more common with the manual transmission, perhaps because crankcase ventilation or some other factor is more affected by the overrun that accompanies gear changes. Used engines are in chronically short supply and expensive. In Montreal some recyclers have stopped selling the engines because they're too troublesome. APA has sourced rebuilt engines for about $3,500 in Montreal (plus installation). APA has recorded about 35 written complaints from consumers and confirmed a high rate of failures with rebuilders. We have not written Mazda directly about this issue, but could do so given the number of complaints.

APA can obtain a below retail price to replace the engine in Montreal, and likely a bit of break at our recommended engine specialist in Toronto. Either shop would be competent to report on the engine damage.

Don't get me wrong the car is great, good chassis, good handling, good interior, beautiful exterior. But the engine sucks.

Swapping in a turbo engine would be more money than wanted I think plus more gas useage. I would have to investigate it bit more but that would mean engine, turbo, accessories, intercooler, 6spd transmission, ecu, I'm sure other stuff too.

[Nickzgrl]

if you get a donor car the swap will be much easier. may cost a bit more since yu have a complete car.
but its all the small things you dont think of. crank sensors. crank pulley. harnesses. pjb. pcm. ingnition cyl.
cluster.
those all add up.
labour is not rly to big of an issue if you can do yourself.
worst part of the speed3 swap was wiring and axle shafts. fairly simple otherwise.


as for the 2.3.... i would say the main problem they have is the balance shaft cassette. they always spin #2-3 which is where the casette is. im not saying its the problem but from what i see, looks like a possibility.

[Chrisinski]

if you get a donor car the swap will be much easier. may cost a bit more since yu have a complete car.
but its all the small things you dont think of. crank sensors. crank pulley. harnesses. pjb. pcm. ingnition cyl.
cluster.
those all add up.
labour is not rly to big of an issue if you can do yourself.
worst part of the speed3 swap was wiring and axle shafts. fairly simple otherwise.


as for the 2.3.... i would say the main problem they have is the balance shaft cassette. they always spin #2-3 which is where the casette is. im not saying its the problem but from what i see, looks like a possibility.

+1 on donar car. That also means parts galore and you can make money off that too.

[a_ahmed]

Pathetic:

http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/direct/view/.f0cbca4


ul 05, 2012 (9:38 am)

I recently purchased a 2005 Mazda 3 with 110,000km on it. It was clean and well taken car of inside and out. It was maintained regularly by the first Owner at the dealership per the Mazda Service Schedule. All service records came with the car. I had it checked out before I bought it and did a thorough self maintenance check on everything at about 110,800km.

At 112,300km I noticed an engine noise that led me to believe it could be a sticky valve or lifter so I immediately checked the oil. It was down 3 quarts (this in the less than 1500km I had driven since I performed the self check) with not a drop of oil under the engine or any smoke from the exhaust.

After a visit to the dealership I found out that running it so low on oil threw a bearing in the crankshaft and as a consequence I am now in the process of replacing the engine.

After speaking with the service manager I discovered that the 2.3 engines are known to suddenly start burning oil without any warning or evidence, as much as 1 litre every 500km. Searching through numerous on-line forums I confirmed that it's a prevalent issue with an abnormally high percentage of these cars, some having experienced the problem as early as 80,000K. The apparent cause is a collapsed oil seal inside the engine and the only solution to address the oil consumption, according to the service dept (outside of an outright engine replacement as it's too costly to fix) is to change to heavier oil. This will slow the rate of consumption but it won't stop it. The 2.0 and 2.5 engines do not seem to have this problem.

Mazda Corp apparently knows about this (the service department I deal with told me that numerous delerships across the country have brought it forward to them) but fails to recognize there is an issue. What puzzled me most is that when looking into the cost of a replacement engine, the Mazda factory rebuilt engine was only warranted for 1 year or 20,000K when all their other engines are warranted similar to what would be provided on a new car power train.

I am not laying blame on anyone anyone but myself for my predicament. Had I checked the oil every fill-up, as is recommended, I would have a car that burns oil but would not have had to replace the engine; however, IMHO, any vehicle made in the last 10 years with less than 200K on the odometer, and maintained regularly, should not be burning oil at all, let alone at the rate I and many other owners have experienced.

Heads up to all owners with Mazda 2.3L engines.

So since I already invested in this stupid car (and it's great other than the pos engines), it is worthwhile swapping to a 2.5. I just want the NA for reliability and daily driving. I have a track car for hooligan action and speed although the turbo would be fun.

So how about we all start discussing and gathering information on this swap? Whatever I find I'll post in here and likewise if others can find.

[Manpreet]

I've been thinking about this for a while as well, just wondering if the harness for the engine and the computer can be saved or would you have to transfer everything from the 2.5

[Nickzgrl]

from experience with helping get the speed3 sedan running yu will need a lot of electrical. first big issue would be dealing with a pcm and if the pcm has to be changed then yu WILL HAVE to change the pbj to a gem.
those would be your biggest issue.

im not fimiliar enought to say that yes a 2.5 will run off 2.3 pcm.
from the speed i no the issue would be with timing, crank sensor and the reluctor wheel on the pulley.
the crank will control spark. so wrong set up = no spark.

if you out the 2.5 i would put the 6spd manual instead of the 5spd.
only thing would be checking cv shafts. one may be longer or shorter from gen1 to gen2

if anyone else has ideas or can confirm anything ive said.
im sure i can check pt# and answer a few questions.

[RTEnthusiast]

Heh... yeah. I have some experience with an engine blowing (2006 GT 2.3 5MT, 100K) because it suddenly started consuming oil like no tomorrow.

[Flagrum_3]

from experience with helping get the speed3 sedan running yu will need a lot of electrical. first big issue would be dealing with a pcm and if the pcm has to be changed then yu WILL HAVE to change the pbj to a gem.
those would be your biggest issue.

im not fimiliar enought to say that yes a 2.5 will run off 2.3 pcm.
from the speed i no the issue would be with timing, crank sensor and the reluctor wheel on the pulley.
the crank will control spark. so wrong set up = no spark.

if you out the 2.5 i would put the 6spd manual instead of the 5spd.
only thing would be checking cv shafts. one may be longer or shorter from gen1 to gen2

if anyone else has ideas or can confirm anything ive said.
im sure i can check pt# and answer a few questions.

No direct experience with the matter, but I believe most all what you said sounds reasonable. It would seem unless the OP can find the complete system components from a wrecker, it would be a costly and difficult situation to achieve. Especially the fact that the PCM and PBJ would need changing out, which in all probability would have to be.

_3

[Hyperion]

No direct experience with the matter, but I believe most all what you said sounds reasonable. It would seem unless the OP can find the complete system components from a wrecker, it would be a costly and difficult situation to achieve. Especially the fact that the PCM and PBJ would need changing out, which in all probability would have to be.

_3

Thanks for that confirmation on what she had already typed out. I wasn't quite sure what she was saying, you were really able to nail it home. Thanks!

_H

[a_ahmed]

Does the 2010 2.5 mazda 3 only have one computer? I've been looking around and I keep finding various differently ECUs/ECMs/etc... going by different names and looking different, some have a black casing, some have a silver casing, etc...

[a_ahmed]

Also newer 2010-2013 ford fusion 2.5 engines go for cheap. Sounds like a no brainer, 2.3 engines that are POS costing 2000-3000 from a junkyard is a rip off.

I really hope we get the ball moving on this. I want to swap my pos 2.3 (that i swapped in since the engine blew last year) hopefully within this year.

Just trying to gather info...

I am guessing ECU, wiring harness may play a role as others have mentioned.. headers, but those could probably be swapped or I could get MSDS headers which i want to anyway.

If I got a 2010-2013 ford fusion ECU and engine wire harness that should be good enough alongside the complete engine block?

[Nickzgrl]

Also newer 2010-2013 ford fusion 2.5 engines go for cheap. Sounds like a no brainer, 2.3 engines that are POS costing 2000-3000 from a junkyard is a rip off.

I really hope we get the ball moving on this. I want to swap my pos 2.3 (that i swapped in since the engine blew last year) hopefully within this year.

Just trying to gather info...

I am guessing ECU, wiring harness may play a role as others have mentioned.. headers, but those could probably be swapped or I could get MSDS headers which i want to anyway.

If I got a 2010-2013 ford fusion ECU and engine wire harness that should be good enough alongside the complete engine block?


I dont wanna rain on your parade but think about this.....
The cluster is its moudule. The gem module (all your lights and interior stuff). Pcm. Sas module (airbag). Ignition cylinder if its a gt push start.
All those r mazda only. How are you to hook a ford pcm to run those items. I no the cars are very similar but i doubt it will swap that easy.

[Mazdy]

And another one...

[Flagrum_3]

Thanks for that confirmation on what she had already typed out. I wasn't quite sure what she was saying, you were really able to nail it home. Thanks!

_H

Sarcasm noted. I was, for the benefit of the OP just backing up the previous comment. Now do you have anything positive to add, or you just like trolling and adding useless comments? and I am quite sure you probably still don't understand the situation.

_3

[a_ahmed]

I dont wanna rain on your parade but think about this.....
The cluster is its moudule. The gem module (all your lights and interior stuff). Pcm. Sas module (airbag). Ignition cylinder if its a gt push start.
All those r mazda only. How are you to hook a ford pcm to run those items. I no the cars are very similar but i doubt it will swap that easy.

An mz3 does not have a push start its a 2006

[Mazdy]

An mz3 does not have a push start its a 2006

:facepalm

[Nickzgrl]

i didnt say the 06 did.
if you cant use the 2.3 pcm you need a 2.5 one.
i you get 2.5 gt it has push start. it wont work without the button.

[Booter22]

i didnt say the 06 did.
if you cant use the 2.3 pcm you need a 2.5 one.
i you get 2.5 gt it has push start. it wont work without the button.

but you can get the 2.5L from a 2010+ sport GS that has the key start and not push button, as the 2.5L in the GT sedan or GT hatch has the push button. either way if you get a 2.5 you would need the pcm for the vehicle as i could only imagine what program changes and tune may be different from a 2.3L to the 2.5L

[Nickzgrl]

not really.
a 2.5 is just a bit bigger rotating assembly.
most parts from a 2.3 are the same as a 2.5

[Booter22]

not really.
a 2.5 is just a bit bigger rotating assembly.
most parts from a 2.3 are the same as a 2.5

Not really what? You wouldn't be able to. Or I would be surprised to know you could tune the pcm from a 2.3 to the 2.5 as I would suspect they have a different part number and im sure apart from the software it would be set up sightly different. But try it with the 2.3l pcm. Would be interesting to see if it would take the program and if it would even work.

[Kiyomi]

if your worried about fuel consumption, just forget going this route. the 2.5l is a gas guzzler pretending to be a fuel econobox engine.

[Nickzgrl]

ill be doing research this week.
ill try to find out everything i can abt the swap then post it up.
i leave for holidays soon so may be in a couple weeks.

[Chrisinski]

if your worried about fuel consumption, just forget going this route. the 2.5l is a gas guzzler pretending to be a fuel econobox engine.

+1

[TheMAN]

waaaa
wonder why the 2.3l burns oil? because everyone that had theirs blew up used the recommended 5W20 piss.... better CAFE numbers for mazda at the expense of increased engine wear and oil consumption.... mazda/ford doesn't care because they knew during their cost analyses that the failure rates during warranty would be low and that they don't care after the warranty expires.... they want you to buy more cars anyway, which is why new cars aren't built as well as the japanese cars of the 90s..... planned obsolescence!

run the proper oil it was designed for since new (5W30 or better), and it's rock solid

[a_ahmed]

^I've already been using 5w30 on the old engine that blew and on the new engine i swapped in. I in fact switched to 5w40 more than half a year ago or however long it's been now I can't remember.

One guy has already swapped a 2.5 into his 1st gen mz3 but doesn't seem to detail totally everything as to what he swapped or didn't and what he used. Seems like he used the 2.5 flywheel and header but had to modify exhaust slightly cut:

http://www.mazda3forums.com/showthread.php?t=387711

Either way I am doing this rather than getting another car, I'm still fricking making payments on this pos... again it's a great car with a pos engine. So this is worth it instead of another 2.3 or downgrading to a 2.0 which will probably as much work as with the 2.5 or worse yet doing an ms3 swap which will cost lots more and be even more work.

[Jackal]

if your worried about fuel consumption, just forget going this route. the 2.5l is a gas guzzler pretending to be a fuel econobox engine.

Exsqueeze me?

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8503/8305610722_165b1bef7c.jpg
Haha!

[Flagrum_3]

^I've already been using 5w30 on the old engine that blew and on the new engine i swapped in. I in fact switched to 5w40 more than half a year ago or however long it's been now I can't remember.

One guy has already swapped a 2.5 into his 1st gen mz3 but doesn't seem to detail totally everything as to what he swapped or didn't and what he used. Seems like he used the 2.5 flywheel and header but had to modify exhaust slightly cut:

http://www.mazda3forums.com/showthread.php?t=387711

Either way I am doing this rather than getting another car, I'm still fricking making payments on this pos... again it's a great car with a pos engine. So this is worth it instead of another 2.3 or downgrading to a 2.0 which will probably as much work as with the 2.5 or worse yet doing an ms3 swap which will cost lots more and be even more work.

First using 5w-40 in your 2.3 might have been a little too much. 5w30 is probably the thickest you should go, if you consider the close engine tolerances and small oil passages, you could have been starving certain areas of the engine of oil due to low flow.

Why not just spend the cash and get another 2.3 and use synthetic 5w30 in the new one? It'll save alot of headaches and possible future issues.

_3

[a_ahmed]

why the hell would i waste another penny on another overpriced piece of shit 2.3 I already swapped to a 2.3 last year after the other one blew up and have been using 5w30 since i got it, but upped to 5w40.

Worst money pit car ever. the 2.3 liter engine sucks. Didn't you read anything that was posted earlier...

I'm not getting another 2.3 only to have the same crap happen AGAIN. Damn mazda and their denial that there ever was anything wrong with this engine. LOL at save headaches.

I'm still paying for the damn car since i bought it from a dealership... THINKING buying a new car or at least a very low mileage car (123k) will save me money problems in the long term... which it didn't and cost me even more and isn't even paid off yet. Last year 3600$ on 60-80k engine 2008 2.3 engine (i forget now) and labour. Money pit over a money pit. But since the only problem with this car is it's garbage engine quality and reliability I am trying to safeguard whatever money was wasted by keeping the car and not wasting more money on the same garbage 2.3 engine. Money doesn't grow on trees and I am not overflowing to be pissing it away when I need a reliable car and this one isn't even paid off yet.

2.5 engine or nothing. Or I blow it up to smiteriness myself with gasoline and get a 500$ car instead that will have a more reliable engine.

I'm angry at the thought of the 2.3's existence. The car is good but the engine sucks and I want to swap in the 2k10+ 2.5liter engine in instead.

Read the reports and links I gave you. "poor maintenance my ass" the oil burning and engines blowing has been happening to babyd grandma drivers. So please... mazda and their bs that nothing is wrong with it only 'poor maintenance' YEAH RIGHT. 5k or less oil changes with amsoil synthetic always.

[The Wolf]

get a 2.0

[Chrisinski]

get a 2.0

+1

[Flagrum_3]

why the hell would i waste another penny on another overpriced piece of shit 2.3 I already swapped to a 2.3 last year after the other one blew up and have been using 5w30 since i got it, but upped to 5w40.

Worst money pit car ever. the 2.3 liter engine sucks. Didn't you read anything that was posted earlier...

I'm not getting another 2.3 only to have the same crap happen AGAIN. Damn mazda and their denial that there ever was anything wrong with this engine. LOL at save headaches.

I'm still paying for the damn car since i bought it from a dealership... THINKING buying a new car or at least a very low mileage car (123k) will save me money problems in the long term... which it didn't and cost me even more and isn't even paid off yet. Last year 3600$ on 60-80k engine 2008 2.3 engine (i forget now) and labour. Money pit over a money pit. But since the only problem with this car is it's garbage engine quality and reliability I am trying to safeguard whatever money was wasted by keeping the car and not wasting more money on the same garbage 2.3 engine. Money doesn't grow on trees and I am not overflowing to be pissing it away when I need a reliable car and this one isn't even paid off yet.

2.5 engine or nothing. Or I blow it up to smiteriness myself with gasoline and get a 500$ car instead that will have a more reliable engine.

I'm angry at the thought of the 2.3's existence. The car is good but the engine sucks and I want to swap in the 2k10+ 2.5liter engine in instead.

Read the reports and links I gave you. "poor maintenance my ass" the oil burning and engines blowing has been happening to babyd grandma drivers. So please... mazda and their bs that nothing is wrong with it only 'poor maintenance' YEAH RIGHT. 5k or less oil changes with amsoil synthetic always.

Yes I did read all the posts and everything. Now if you want to be nasty, let me give you my honest thoughts. You've blown two engines, I haven't heard of the 2.3 blowing in excessive amounts, my 2.3 runs like a clock, burns no oil @ 210k. Just possibly the problem could be you, or more precisely stated, your driving habits. The 2.3 is not a bad motor per say.

_3

[midnightfxgt]

Yes I did read all the posts and everything. Now if you want to be nasty, let me give you my honest thoughts. You've blown two engines, I haven't heard of the 2.3 blowing in excessive amounts, my 2.3 runs like a clock, burns no oil @ 210k. Just possibly the problem could be you, or more precisely stated, your driving habits. The 2.3 is not a bad motor per say.

_3

+1

I left out any input on this thread based on the rants against the 2.3L. If someone can be so short sighted into thinking that some reports of blown engines equals a serious defect on one of the best selling cars, they are delusional. Come back, and give us a factual report based on number of cars sold vs number of engines blownup, and you would have more credibility. Wait another year or two, and I bet I can dig up posts of blown 2.5L.... its the internet. People bitch. Motors are not perfect, from any manufacturer.

-John

[RedRaptor]

The 2.3 engine isn't bullet proof and there have been a lot of documented issues with it. From burning oil to the cartridge based oil filter system, it doesn't give the owner any comfort that it will be around for awhile.

I have 246,000km on my 2.3L and have used 5W-20 synthetic oil (mostly Mobil1) since 3000km. I won't go as far as vouching for it but you can make your own conclusions.

[Flagrum_3]

The 2.3 engine isn't bullet proof and there have been a lot of documented issues with it. From burning oil to the cartridge based oil filter system, it doesn't give the owner any comfort that it will be around for awhile.

I have 246,000km on my 2.3L and have used 5W-20 synthetic oil (mostly Mobil1) since 3000km. I won't go as far as vouching for it but you can make your own conclusions.

What's a lot? There is over 3.5 million Mazda 3s out there, meaning most probably over 1 million 2.3 engines. If there was a common issue with the engine, it would be well known by now. But like I said, I haven't heard of any. It's not bulletproof, but it sure isn't no piece of shit either.

_3

[TheMAN]

1 million 2.3l mazda3s? I'm not sure about that.... only countries that got the 2.3 was USA, Canada, Japan, and Australia

[Flagrum_3]

1 million 2.3l mazda3s? I'm not sure about that.... only countries that got the 2.3 was USA, Canada, Japan, and Australia

The U.S, Japan, and Canada? These are are high volume countries, ...anyways it was just a rough estimate. Even if its less, say 600,000 does that change my point?

_3

[Dave_The_BMXER]

get a 2.0

OP would you entertain this?

[a_ahmed]

Ya HI, beginning of the thread:

http://www.apa.ca/MazdaEngines.asp


Non turbo 2.3L engine on Mazda 3 and 6: 2004-2007

The engine may begin to burn oil seemingly all of a sudden at 80,000 to 100,000 km. The consumer would likely be unaware of the condition unless they check the oil regularly. If the oil drops below 2 litres in the crankcase, intermittent oil starvation begins to occur, typically first at the location of the number 1 connecting rod -- by this time internal damage is severe. If the consumer does not stop driving the vehicle, the rod can fail completely and pierces a whole in the side of the block.

The cause appears to be gradual overheating of the engine, due to 1) an internal defect in the catalytic converter that can plug up over time OR 2) the catalytic convertor plugs up over time from burned oil in the exhaust stream. There may be other causes.

Failures appear more common with the manual transmission, perhaps because crankcase ventilation or some other factor is more affected by the overrun that accompanies gear changes. Used engines are in chronically short supply and expensive. In Montreal some recyclers have stopped selling the engines because they're too troublesome. APA has sourced rebuilt engines for about $3,500 in Montreal (plus installation). APA has recorded about 35 written complaints from consumers and confirmed a high rate of failures with rebuilders. We have not written Mazda directly about this issue, but could do so given the number of complaints.

APA can obtain a below retail price to replace the engine in Montreal, and likely a bit of break at our recommended engine specialist in Toronto. Either shop would be competent to report on the engine damage.

Search hard enough and you'll find others with severe oil burning and blown engines with rods and pistons going through the block including grandmothers.

I've seen people parroting the same thing defending the 2.3 on other forums where people had the same oil burning and engine blowing issues. I wouldn't be surprised if mazda hires its own goons to cover up the fault of this engine as i've seen the same bs excuses from dealerships and forum goers defending it only relating it all down to 'poor maintenance'. Dealerships to whom it was brought to their attention same deal.

[a_ahmed]

OP would you entertain this?

I've considered this but the car is slow as it is and lacks low end grunt, don't need a screaming weasel on the highway when trying to over take a truck. Considering others have said its much hassle to swap between the two with ECU differences and other factors why downgrade when one could go to a 2.5 instead which is newer and with more low end torque. If going through the hassle might as well have an upgrade. And both engines go for real cheap compared to the now ever aging and overpriced 2.3

The 2.0 doesn't have the same APA reports however so at least one could say its reliable.

[TheMAN]

The U.S, Japan, and Canada? These are are high volume countries, ...anyways it was just a rough estimate. Even if its less, say 600,000 does that change my point?

_3

Japan didn't sell many 23S Axelas, due to high taxes involved... you got a 300 series license plate instead of a 500 series plate with the 20S model or less, physically showing you are paying way more taxes for just a "mid sized" car... but Mazda did sell them because JDM land is the land of niche markets

[Flagrum_3]

Japan didn't sell many 23S Axelas, due to high taxes involved... you got a 300 series license plate instead of a 500 series plate with the 20S model or less, physically showing you are paying way more taxes for just a "mid sized" car... but Mazda did sell them because JDM land is the land of niche markets

That is irrelevant. The point here is; there have been enough 2.3 engines built that IF THERE WAS A SERIOUS ISSUE, it would be publicised in the mainstream. Many of the engine failures, I'm sure, could be tracked back to owner neglect. There is also enough 2.3 engines out there with over 200k on them, and still running well, to refute any minor complaints.

_3

[roachkillah]

don't know if this is relevant but, my 2.3 has been using up oil since it was at 120k. It uses about 1.2 liters for every 5k oil change intervals
i use synthetic 5w20 since i bought it.

[a_ahmed]

well the engine now has top end noise (valves clicketeering at revs) and burns 2 quarts every gas change. So every time I fill up, I fill up oil too lol.. piece of shit.

[Rob23]

I bought my car used at 75k and it was burning a lot of oil. But who knows how the previous owner drove it. Engine never blew, but Mazda replaced it before that happened. Was replaced at 110k. I now have 212k on it and never had a problem with burning oil since.

So I wouldn't say all of the engines are defective.

[a_ahmed]

And it finally died, PIECE OF SHIT.

So now I am trying to source as much info asap on the 2.5

From what I was told on another forum... the fusion motors swap in.. the 2.3 and the 2.5....Sensors need to be swapped, ignition coil needs to be swapped, headers need to be gen 1 (? not confirmed 100%), intake manifold needs to be swapped, otherwise block should fit right in.

Need to figure out flywheel and clutch as well as that needs to be replaced anyway, even last time i swapped engine i was told to do it but i pushed through.. so this time ill do it save on labour.

I wont be doing the work but a shop will so the more info and parts i have on hand the less time spent in shop..

[McGuyver_3]

Don't waste your time with a 2.5. It burned more gas then my speed does. Just get a 2.3 or a 2.0. I know you don't want a 2.0 but It is a great motor and it withstood 100k of Beating without any noises or burning oil. Back then I did 8k intervals. I did the timing mod and as stupid as it sounds it gave the car substantial more amount of power. It also helped alot that it was broken in very harsh right from day 1. Also keep in mind that with scrap yard engines there could be internal issues you do not know about. For example, my2.5l had a scrap yard motor in it (long story) and it had timing issues that were not triggering any engine lights but they had codes stored in the memory. My handheld scanners were not good enough to detect the codes though.

[a_ahmed]

Looks like the same shit with the 2.3l fusion:

https://www.google.ca/search?q=ford+fusion+2.3+oil+consumption&oq=ford+fusion+2.3+oil+consumption&aqs=chrome..69i57.7963j0j7&sourceid=chrome&espv=210&es_sm=93&ie=UTF-8

I am moving jobs and won't drive as much as I used to, could care less about gas anymore. I've been buy two quarts almost each gas change until the engine just died.

There ARE 2.3l motors with issues... none with 2.0... none with 2.5 that ive come across and the 2.3 issues persist in the fusions (oil consumption).

Just not interested in another 2.3 and not going for a 2.0 the car is as slow as it is, and not getting an msp

[a_ahmed]

Found this piece of information by contacting MSDS about the header differences between gen 1 and gen 2


The gen 1- to- gen 2 header differences are locations of the 02 sensors, and a slight clearance divit in the down flex pipe. There is no egr fitting on either

[midnightfxgt]

Looks like the same shit with the 2.3l fusion:

https://www.google.ca/search?q=ford+fusion+2.3+oil+consumption&oq=ford+fusion+2.3+oil+consumption&aqs=chrome..69i57.7963j0j7&sourceid=chrome&espv=210&es_sm=93&ie=UTF-8

I am moving jobs and won't drive as much as I used to, could care less about gas anymore. I've been buy two quarts almost each gas change until the engine just died.

There ARE 2.3l motors with issues... none with 2.0... none with 2.5 that ive come across and the 2.3 issues persist in the fusions (oil consumption).

Just not interested in another 2.3 and not going for a 2.0 the car is as slow as it is, and not getting an msp


You should do some research first. Those links you posted are not indicating many issues AT ALL. Hell, the first one was user issue checking the oil "Well...after doing a little research and letting the car sit overnight in the garage, the oil consumption issue is not really an issue. In looking at the owners manual, there is only 1 correct way to insert the dipstick (http://motors.shop.ebay.com/i.html?_nkw=dipstick). If it isn't put in the proper orientation, a false reading will result (duh!). On the oil level check this am, it is half-way between the dots. I don't recall where the oil level was when we got it, but it may have been at or near that level. So...lesson learned. Read the owner's manual"

The 2.3L is not known for burning oil. You assume that after reading a few threads. Millions of motors sold, a couple forum posts, and suddenly its an issue thats widespread.

[geobur]

I agree with midnightfxgt I have a 2008 2.3l Gt and I drive it pretty hard/spirited at times...and although I just passed 110,000k the engine runs like a charm, I get regular oil changes using the recommended standard oil. And no problems yet *knock on wood*

I had done a ton of research on the 2.3 Mazda 3 before I bought it because I wanted to be sure I was getting a reliable car, and I didn't find many complaints (aside from common rust problems, and the passenger rear motor mount)

There is likely some other reason the motors keep blowing other than it being a "POS" motor which it isn't...The fact that you think the car is "slow enough already" And that your main reason for not wanting a 2.0l is that it won't be fast enough gives some decent insight into where the problem could be stemming from...Yes the 3 as fast as a Ferrari, but it isn't a slouch either...it can be a quick little car.

[a_ahmed]

You clicked on one link and that was ironically a 2.5l fusion when in fact it was someone not reading the manual on the dipstick, all the other ones are in fact were burning oil issues for the 2.3l. Anyways 'a few links' sorry but this bullshit about 2.3 motors not having issues is bullshit.

Anyways don't give a damn, not getting a shit 2.3 ever again plus its overpriced. "millions of motors", actually the 2.3 is not that common.

I'm sourcing the info and parts slowly. 2.5 is cheaper to get and newer.

[midnightfxgt]

I am at like 160K KM, 60K KM of that is with boost, and no issues.

35 cases called into the APA (not the MILLIONS you claim lol) vs millions of these motors sold, pretty easy math. If it was a REAL issue, you would see pages full in your google search link ;)

[a_ahmed]

http://www.blueovalforums.com/forums/index.php?/topic/28083-23-l-oil-consumption-in-ford-fusion/

http://www.fordfusionforum.com/topic/5827-rod-knock-where-did-my-oil-go/

http://community.cartalk.com/discussion/2284631/is-there-a-defect-in-the-ford-fusion-engine

http://www.mazda3forums.com/showthread.php?t=377727

http://www.mazda3forums.com/showthread.php?t=309698

http://www.mazda3forums.com/showthread.php?t=372828

http://www.mazda3forums.com/showthread.php?t=208698

http://www.mazda3forums.com/showthread.php?t=396712

http://www.mazda3forums.com/showthread.php?t=316562

http://www.mazda3forums.com/showthread.php?t=396298&page=2

http://www.mazda3forums.com/showthread.php?t=372543

http://www.mazda3forums.com/showthread.php?t=354716

http://www.mazda3forums.com/showthread.php?t=258894

http://www.mazda3forums.com/showthread.php?t=379064

http://www.mazda3forums.com/showthread.php?t=384609

http://www.mazda3forums.com/showthread.php?t=245059

Anyways I can keep copy pasting threads of engine failures and oil consumption with the 2.3 on and on and on, every single response by everyone is 'oh its not a problem'. For the last ten years almost. Well clearly it is. With people experiencing the same garbage I experienced and everyone including mazda and mazda dealerships in denial.

The 2.0 no problems, 2.3 turbo no problems like it, and the 2.5 no problems either, just the 2.3 on repeat.


Everyone's response over the years "oh i have no problems" well great.

http://www.mazda3club.com/showthread.php?t=56735

All the time the same responses oh i have no problem and i havent seen that many blown motors or no motors that burn oil yet... its always the same. Sorry I don't buy this shit.

It's always undermined and denied but it's all over the net:

http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/direct/view/.f0cbca4

So many people asking the same questions about oil burning and engine failures and getting the same denials as if mazda has its own trolls to deny this.

Really makes no difference I'm not spending another penny on a 2.3 Two low mileage engines blown with regular 4-5k oil changes and all highway driven.

[midnightfxgt]

You don't get it. Thats OK. :)

I guess the 2.5L is riddled with the same problem:

http://www.mazdaforum.com/forum/mazda3-26/what-normal-rate-oil-comsumption-madza-3-2-5-a-27273/
http://www.torontomazda3.ca/forum/showthread.php?48650-2010-2-5L-needed-over-2L-of-oil-after-4K


Finding a dozen (or even 3!) people/posts with an issue do not indicate an issue. You don;t like the 2.3L, and thats fine. However, spouting off about something as fact, when it is not proven... well, its comical.

-John

[a_ahmed]

^Oh I get it, money pit pile of garbage engine

I've owned so far 10 cars and a dedicated track car, and none gave me as much drama as the mz3.

http://www.aerohill.com/wp/listing/2005-mazda-3-2-3l/

[a_ahmed]

http://www.torontomazda3.ca/forum/showthread.php?61172-2-3-liter-is-burnning-1-5-liters-of-oil-per-1000km

[midnightfxgt]

You can find 50 threads. Offset that with the number of units sold, and you still dont have a leg to stand on.

By your theory, the 2.5L has issues too. I posted a couple links. Factor in less of them sold, its about the same LOL.

Anyways, wasted enough time. You want to think there is a problem, knock yourself out :)

[a_ahmed]

I FINALY got all the damn aprts even though i ordered xmas time.

Now about to get engine

but one guy is tleling me while the block will work head will not.

I need some urgent information as to why it wouldnt and what it would take to make work...

[greyseason]

possibly the heads will be to tall for the engine bay?
if so, think bmw m3 hood bulge to fix that, or scoop scoop scoop

[a_ahmed]

One of the improvements on the 2.5 engine are the revised heads with bigger valves... so I would hate to use anything else.

[a_ahmed]

One of the things that I intended my mechanic to do from what i read was swap the manifold and sensors off the old engine onto the 2.5 and the oil pan as apparently they are different.

But lets say I was going to use all of it, would all i need then be the engine harness and ecu from a 2010+ mazda3 or fusion?

[greyseason]

Im thinking back to the speed3sedan.

He had to have speed USDM specific(american motor) abs sensors/ecu/... to get his motor to turn over

[a_ahmed]

I've found this thread:

http://www.torontomazda3.ca/forum/showthread.php?71900-What-would-it-take-to-swap-the-2-5l-into-a-gen-1&p=1144229#post1144229

It seems swapping between 2.0, 2.3 and 2.5 is pretty common with the mx-5 guys.

[a_ahmed]

Im thinking back to the speed3sedan.

He had to have speed USDM specific(american motor) abs sensors/ecu/... to get his motor to turn over

Hey bro, what do you mean? This is a 2.3 NA to 2.5 NA swap thread.

[greyseason]

Hey bro, what do you mean? This is a 2.3 NA to 2.5 NA swap thread.

Im just saying you might need to buy 2.5 abs sensor along with the ECU. You might not ber able to just pull the 2.3, drop in the 2.5

[a_ahmed]

Okay so a 2011-2012 Fusion 2.5 non-hybrid 2.5 engine is in my gen 1.

The good stuff:

-There is no need for oil conversion kit as for the 2.3 (which comes standard with the crappy catridge filter), it already comes with the plate for the standard oil filter.

-It was a direct bolt in.

-Oil pan was swapped from 2.3 to the 2.5 block

-Belt tensioner had to be slightly modified and adjusted, slight bit from head shaved for belt to run and not touch.

-All the sensors plugged straight in except for the 'runners' which are missing on the fusion engine.

-Used gen 1 msds header.

-Had to rewire some capacitor (my friend couldn't remember what exactly nothing major)

-Had to rewire temperature sensor

Now the problems and the codes:

We're using the 2.5 intake (which I was advised is better and good for 10hp compared to the 2.3 intake)

-Cyinder 1 and 4 are not firing.

-Extra wiring for runners since there are no runners throw an intake runners code.

-Intake pressure code

-Throttle body TPS circuit A & Circuit B correlation sensor is plugged in throwing a code. The throttle body is different but the old throttle body won't fit on the new intake.

So the codes are mostly due to the new intake and no runners on the new intake. But the major issue I want resolved first is why aren't cylinder 1 and 4 firing? I think if they start firing that it should start running proper.

[a_ahmed]

Oh yes one more thing, had to use the 2010+ o2 sensor, the old one did not work or something like that, what my buddy said.

[Nickzgrl]

I can probably guess your problem is with the reluctor wheel on the crank pulley. I am almost positive it is different and that is what could be your firing problem. The intake runners should not effect the starting it running of the car.

Also I believe the throttle codes are related to the throttle pedal. Not The the body. The resistance values may be different between gen 1 and gen 2

[jay93]

i really don't think swapping motors is a good idea because of the problems you can potentially encounter. better just to stick with the stock and if that motor f's off just get another stock. much easier

[greyseason]

i really don't think swapping motors is a good idea because of the problems you can potentially encounter. better just to stick with the stock and if that motor f's off just get another stock. much easier

to late, OP already has the engine in da whip

[Booter22]

may be stupid but did you switch plugs / coils from firing cylinders see if the packs could be bad? or take the coil out and off the plug go to turn the car on see if you get spark. again.. the whole wire harness could not have something that is now missing on this engine so its all guess work

[a_ahmed]

I can probably guess your problem is with the reluctor wheel on the crank pulley. I am almost positive it is different and that is what could be your firing problem. The intake runners should not effect the starting it running of the car.

Also I believe the throttle codes are related to the throttle pedal. Not The the body. The resistance values may be different between gen 1 and gen 2

The cam on the old 2.3 is 6 tooth which I was told is what it should be otherwise in the 2.5 as well.

What's happening is there is no Injector pulse on #1 and #4 cylinders, coils are firing. It pulses during crank, once its running doesn't pulse.

Cam and Crank sensors were swapped from 2.3 to 2.5, the crank pulley as well.

[Nickzgrl]

Do you have the ability to monitor the cam and crank sensor to see if they drop out all.

If you haven't used a node light to confirm injectors are getting a signal I would start there. Maybe a shit coil in the injector. Otherwise trace the harness back to the pcm. Maybe a bent pin in a connector somewhere

[a_ahmed]

Car is done and driving. Definitely worth it imo. Pulls hard, getting into triple digits faster in lower gears as it seems.

Had to reuse 2.3 intake manfiold, for whateverreason couldn't get the 2.5 intake manifold to work. Also had to swap oil sensor.

I'm also surprised by the MSDS header, its not loud at all, but then I noticed this with all the 2.5 gen 2 motors too. The 2.0 were obnoxiously loud and the 2.3 was too.

[CH0SiiN1]

I have a 2010 Ford 2.5 swap in Gen1 mz3, runs good.. A bug or two to work out though. Still a newer motor with less k, for less then what I paid for my third 2.3. I'm not knocking the motor, I knew nothing about the said problems or rumours, I'm the first to admit it was my own fault my motors are done. With a header,cbe,cai, it changes the novelty of the car and rolling around at higher revs compared to when car was stock, I know I know these mods have no performance gains ;) just saying they were the cause of my particular story. Yea so I'm happy with the swap, I'm not sure exactly what all was done, and what still needs to be done, motors in, I can drive the 3 again so that's all that matters to me lol plus when I was mentioning costs.. My newer less km 2.5 also had a used $300 cbe for mz3 factored into the price and was still cheaper then any of my 2.3 replacement.

[baymoe]

Glad it worked out for you.

Was there any issues swapping the crank pulley over? Also, the ac unit seems to be mounted differently on the 2.5 vs the 2.3. What's your input on that?

[baymoe]

Glad it worked out for you.

Was there any issues swapping the crank pulley over? Also, the ac unit seems to be mounted differently on the 2.5 vs the 2.3. What's your input on that?

Thinking of tackling this soon. Anyone have any advice?

[McGuyver_3]

You will require proper timing tools/procedure for that engine. These engines are not keyed, there are 3 diamond washers holding the timing In place behind the crank pulley. Even I took my car to the dealer and paid to have my issue fixed. I saw it as cheap insurance even though the repair was pricey.

[CH0SiiN1]

My timing was fixed in a few mins, and yes pulley swap.. No ac though. Be careful who you get to install it though.. Happy with the motor but discusted with some of the corners cut that I've fixed myself.

[baymoe]

My timing was fixed in a few mins, and yes pulley swap.. No ac though. Be careful who you get to install it though.. Happy with the motor but discusted with some of the corners cut that I've fixed myself.

Can the AC be made to work though? That was one of the things that I've been looking the answer for.

I will doing the swap

[ryan2.3]

figured i'd ask here since this thread keeps popping up. The ford fusion 2.5 drops right into our Gen 1's, so how much more difficult would it be to put in the fusion Ecoboost 2.0T. Is it just as complicated as putting mazdaspeed engine into a non speed? or would this be easier?


edit
obviously you'd need to get it custom tuned, i was more referring to whether you need all the other bits and bobs that are needed when doing the speed swap

[baymoe]

Does anyone have the timing kit that I can borrow or buy off of?

[Ret-Ret]

just reviving an old thread. been reading about this engine swap for a while now and i'm happy to hear that the swaps have been working great for you guys! i will be doing this sometime in the future and just wanted to thank everyone for their contributions.

a_ahmed: how's your swap now? all the issues solved? i know you're very happy with your new engine and i'm glad you like it!

baymoe: how did your swap go? i know it was over a year ago since you last posted but just wanted to get an update. cheers!

[a_ahmed]

It was great while it lasted, car was curb'd and it wasn't worth fixing so it's been ditched. Otherwise the 2.5 swap was worth it, i had the 6spd swapped in too. Probably my last post on here as i dont plan to get a mazda 3, i got a vette and 335i. I do need a winter beater again though lol... I miss the mz3, was the funnest winter car ever.

[Ret-Ret]

It was great while it lasted, car was curb'd and it wasn't worth fixing so it's been ditched. Otherwise the 2.5 swap was worth it, i had the 6spd swapped in too. Probably my last post on here as i dont plan to get a mazda 3, i got a vette and 335i. I do need a winter beater again though lol... I miss the mz3, was the funnest winter car ever.

what happened to the car? i was actually going to research about how to swap in a newer transmission, preferably with the Fusion engine. would any other ATX transmission swap in with the Duratec 25? i really want to do the swap maybe sometime next year. thanks for replying so fast btw :)

[baymoe]

just reviving an old thread. been reading about this engine swap for a while now and i'm happy to hear that the swaps have been working great for you guys! i will be doing this sometime in the future and just wanted to thank everyone for their contributions.

a_ahmed: how's your swap now? all the issues solved? i know you're very happy with your new engine and i'm glad you like it!

baymoe: how did your swap go? i know it was over a year ago since you last posted but just wanted to get an update. cheers!
Ret-Ret

My engine was from a 2010 Mazda3 2.5L (non-Skyactiv)

I've been putting it off since I didn't have the garage space (single car) to take on such an ordeal. BUT I just finished the swap last night lol. Engine is fantastic, and had a noticeable improvement in torque.

If anyone has any question, I'll be glad to help as it's still fresh in my memory.

TIP
1) Disconnect the 3 main engine wiring harness from the box beside the battery tray and fuse panel. Leave the entire harness attached to the engine/transmission and remove it as a complete unit. The idiot in me decided it was a better idea to disconnect all the plugs with the engine still in the bay.
2) Find yourself a spring clip tool. I regret not buying it. https://www.amazon.ca/8milelake-Clamp-Pliers-Piece-Slotted/dp/B072V7VMM7/ref=sr_1_17_sspa?ie=UTF8&qid=1510071567&sr=8-17-spons&keywords=spring+clip+tool&psc=1
3) Buy the timing kit off me LOL.

https://image.ibb.co/jWK1OG/20171105_181459.jpg

[Jackal]

Wow. Well done! 2010 2.5 is great! Nice swap.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Ret-Ret]

WOW! that's amazing man! maybe if i take this on, i'll give you a ring haha. i'll be doing it myself as well. how much did you grab the 2010 2.5 for and where did you find it? i was looking into swapping in a ~2011 Duratec 25 non-hybrid. this is a 100% plan for the future and maybe even NEAR future lol. thank you for the detailed post! maybe if you come out for a meet i can check out the new engine :) cheers!

[Ret-Ret]

another thing is i'm looking to swap in a new transmission too and i have an atx. any thoughts?

[Ret-Ret]

i actually just looked up prices for the ~2010 2.5 non-skyactiv mazda engine and they're going for pretty good prices for a nice block. i think i'll be going this route after all. baymoe we gotta connect and exchange info. you've inspired me to take this on!

[baymoe]

WOW! that's amazing man! maybe if i take this on, i'll give you a ring haha. i'll be doing it myself as well. how much did you grab the 2010 2.5 for and where did you find it? i was looking into swapping in a ~2011 Duratec 25 non-hybrid. this is a 100% plan for the future and maybe even NEAR future lol. thank you for the detailed post! maybe if you come out for a meet i can check out the new engine :) cheers!

I paid 650 for the engine and it was from a used car engine dealer in Brantford. If it helps with pricing yours out, mine had about 50K km on it. Came with intake manifold and throttle body (which i didn't use).

[baymoe]

another thing is i'm looking to swap in a new transmission too and i have an atx. any thoughts?

I have a manual transmission, so I'm not sure. It could even be simpler as it's all electrically controlled with an automatic.

For anyone else doing the same swap on a manual transmission, i recommend having the flywheel machined since you're going to be replacing the clutch anyway.

[Ret-Ret]

I have a manual transmission, so I'm not sure. It could even be simpler as it's all electrically controlled with an automatic.

For anyone else doing the same swap on a manual transmission, i recommend having the flywheel machined since you're going to be replacing the clutch anyway.

so from what i gather, i can swap in both engine + auto transmission from the ~2010 mazda3?

[baymoe]

so from what i gather, i can swap in both engine + auto transmission from the ~2010 mazda3?

What I meant is if you're swapping your current transmission onto the 2.5 it may be slightly easier than a manual due to all the connections you'd have to remove (shifter cables, bleeding of clutch line).

I have no idea whether the 2010 transmission would work or not. Sorry for the confusion.

[Ret-Ret]

What I meant is if you're swapping your current transmission onto the 2.5 it may be slightly easier than a manual due to all the connections you'd have to remove (shifter cables, bleeding of clutch line).

I have no idea whether the 2010 transmission would work or not. Sorry for the confusion.

That's correct, ATX are usually easier to mate with a swapped engine. I will do some research and see if any newer ATX/MTX can be swapped into our cars. I know we have tons of info re: engine swaps but not a lot when it comes to transmission swaps. This thread is revived and fully loaded with information. Can't wait to see how many more of us are planning this! Thanks again for all your input baymoe! Cheers!

[Ret-Ret]

Quick info for all regarding Mazda 5-speed ATX transmissions...

Mazda 5-speed ATX transmissions are the same on all models between 2002-2014 (this is crazy lol). See below:

--> 2002–2014 Mazda FS5A-EL — 5-speed version of the FN4A-EL, also used in 2006-09 Ford Focus/Milan as FNR5

Got this info from: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Mazda_transmissions

Hope this helps us out. It's actually nice to know this as that means that most/all engines mated with the FS5A-EL can and will swap into our Gen 1 / 2. That's pretty nice to know :)

Cheers!