The vaccine debate thread.

[Aitch]

Mod edit: moved posts from the LOLpics thread (http://www.torontomazda3.ca/forum/showthread.php?68615-Post-a-pic-vid-that-made-you-LOL&p=1166898&viewfull=1#post1166898) to avoid derailment.

For reals this time

http://s.quickmeme.com/img/bd/bdc9f6cbb2d0ea27dd1cf81434509887529e9417d2641417f6 26e6b365543e46.jpg

Only missing the one response "God I love it when smart people talk."

[fruitloops]

For reals this time

http://s.quickmeme.com/img/bd/bdc9f6cbb2d0ea27dd1cf81434509887529e9417d2641417f6 26e6b365543e46.jpg

Only missing the one response "God I love it when smart people talk."

That's wonderful and all, but i would just like to point out that my cousin almost died from a reaction to vaccines. The doctor then proceeded to keep giving him some vaccines. I was barely vaccined as a child, and im not dead yet, and my whole family and just about my whole extended family have not been vaccinated much and are perfectly fine. My Aunt got the papers from the hospital archives just last year (my cousin is also 18) and some doctors were suggesting to not use some of those vaccines, because they had been known to cause deaths in babies. I have no doubts that is still the fact today. /rant

[Aitch]

Fair enough, if there is scientific evidence of life-threatening harm from a certain vaccine that's a reason not to get it.

That's far from a reason for people to decide all vaccines are unnecessary.

[Booostin]

Vaccines might help some but nobody knows the long term side effects. I never get any shots either apart from the ones I got when I was a young kid and I didn't know any better ;) "puts tin foil hat on"

[fruitloops]

Fair enough, if there is scientific evidence of life-threatening harm from a certain vaccine that's a reason not to get it.

That's far from a reason for people to decide all vaccines are unnecessary.

I think a solution to this, would be to wait until the child is a bit older and is stronger before they pump them full of chemicals if they choose to do that.
People have not been getting vaccines for a long time now. Why do they have to now? Oh no, H1N1, killed one person. The common cold has killed more people. People die from flu's like that because they have terrible health/ bad living habits already. The one person who died from H1N1 was from a native reserve, which is not on of the cleanest places on earth.

But it actually sucks, because i am planning on going into nursing now, which means i need all my vaccines lol.

[Kiewan]

Vaccines might help some but nobody knows the long term side effects. I never get any shots either apart from the ones I got when I was a young kid and I didn't know any better ;) "puts tin foil hat on"

My doctor suggested a flu shot last October and it was the first time I have ever had one. I was sick for a month straight and missed 1,1/2 months of school. I had flu-like symtoms, vomitting every other day and feeling very feint. I have just caught up with school now. I won't be getting another

[fruitloops]

My doctor suggested a flu shot last October and it was the first time I have ever had one. I was sick for a month straight and missed 1,1/2 months of school. I had flu-like symtoms, vomitting every other day and feeling very feint. I have just caught up with school now. I won't be getting another

Thats what vaccines are supposed to do lol. Dumb eh? It gives you the flu, or whatever you are getting the shot for, so that your system knows how to deal with it later on "if" you get it.
E.g. My mom has a quarter sized scar on her shoulder/arm from a shot most people in their 40s got.

[Aitch]

No. Just no.

I completely disagree with all of you.

[loki]

:facepalm

[fruitloops]

: first:

[SirWanker]

: first:

I really hope you do not become infected with smallpox.....

[slam525i]

:facepalm

As a microbiologist, I have to facepalm. If you refuse to heed the advice of experts, then I really don't know what to say to you.

As for no one knowing what the long term side effects are, we've vaccinated people for literally HUNDREDS of years. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Jenner He died in 1823. I think we've got enough long term data.

For those of you who say "My brother's cousin's son's classmate had a bad reaction" or "I never had a shot but I'm still here", please go deactivate your airbag. I've never had an airbag deployment but I'm still here, and "my cousin's daughter's roommate's dad had a rash from an airbag after hitting a small curb." Me? I'll take the 1 in 100,000 chance of an unnecessary airbag deployment (and injury) for the much higher chance that I'll save my life.


Thats what vaccines are supposed to do lol. Dumb eh? It gives you the flu, or whatever you are getting the shot for, so that your system knows how to deal with it later on "if" you get it.
That's not how vaccines work... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaccine#Types

Do you know why scientists HATE anti-vaccination people? It's not because they're loud and ignorant. It's not because they're trying to disprove science. It's because anti-vaccination people KILL OTHER PEOPLE. Not just from giving poor advice to people, but they weaken our society's "herd immunity". Some poor kids with a birth defect, or cancer, and has a weaken immune system cannot be vaccinated. They will die because others don't vaccinate their kids, and try to convince more people not to vaccinate their kids. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herd_immunity

If you have any questions, go ahead and ask. As long as you don't ask me to explain why your uncle's buddy at work had a son who got autism after a shot (although I will answer as to how temporal association causes people to attribute it to a vaccine, and the whole Andrew Wakefield mess).

[slam525i]

If vaccines didn't work, if they weren't safe, if they weren't effective, the following would still exist:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/66/Child_with_Smallpox_Bangladesh.jpg/393px-Child_with_Smallpox_Bangladesh.jpg

[Aitch]

Vaccines might help some but nobody knows the long term side effects. I never get any shots either apart from the ones I got when I was a young kid and I didn't know any better ;) "puts tin foil hat on"

The western world has been using widespread vaccinations for generations now, which has wiped out some horrible but preventable diseases. Given the length of time and study of their effectiveness, if there were serious long-term side effects, they would surely be documented by now.

If you are referring to more recently approved vaccines (eg. HPV, flu shots, whatever) basically all vaccines and drugs go through a very stringent set of approval processes. Are you saying you have no faith in all modern medicine, or simply "voluntary" vaccines? If it's the latter, the disservice you are doing isn't really to yourself, it's to the population in general. Read up on herd immunity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herd_immunity).


I think a solution to this, would be to wait until the child is a bit older and is stronger before they pump them full of chemicals if they choose to do that.

People have not been getting vaccines for a long time now. Why do they have to now? Oh no, H1N1, killed one person. The common cold has killed more people. People die from flu's like that because they have terrible health/ bad living habits already. The one person who died from H1N1 was from a native reserve, which is not on of the cleanest places on earth.

But it actually sucks, because i am planning on going into nursing now, which means i need all my vaccines lol.

1) You can't wait until a child is older. Kids vaccines are designed to be delivered on a specific schedule, based on when they are developed enough to receive the vaccine, and when the vaccine will be given early enough to prevent the disease it is meant to target. If you wait until later there is a much greater chance of them suffering from the diseases that the vaccines are meant to prevent. Additionally, are you proposing that you know when certain vaccines should be given better than the trained doctors and scientific community who have designed the schedule for delivery around their knowledge of a typical child's physiology, i.e. exactly when the child is old enough to get each vaccine without adverse side effects?

2) People have been getting vaccines for a long time. See my first post. Adverse side effects are both minimal and not normally harmful, and this is extremely well documented.

3) H1N1 killed over 17,000 people worldwide (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Influenza_A_virus_subtype_H1N1). It killed over 400 people in Canada (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_flu_pandemic_in_Canada). But screw vaccines, why would we need that?

4) LOL yeah nurses shouldn't be vaccinated. So they can get sick all the time from the sickos they come in contact with, and not have to work all the time. Who wants to protect your health?


My doctor suggested a flu shot last October and it was the first time I have ever had one. I was sick for a month straight and missed 1,1/2 months of school. I had flu-like symtoms, vomitting every other day and feeling very feint. I have just caught up with school now. I won't be getting another

It is true that some people have a strong reaction to certain flu shots. The formulation changes every year so it's possible you won't react the same way in the future. Additionally, each year's shot is formulated a year in advance, and is really a best guess about which strains will be most prevalent in the coming year and the best vaccine mix against them. It is also possible that you will catch a different flu not covered by the current vaccine.

I'm not saying the flu shot didn't cause your symptoms. I just want to provide the counter-point that there are other explanations for many cases.


Thats what vaccines are supposed to do lol. Dumb eh? It gives you the flu, or whatever you are getting the shot for, so that your system knows how to deal with it later on "if" you get it.
E.g. My mom has a quarter sized scar on her shoulder/arm from a shot most people in their 40s got.

Actually, that's how your immune system works. That's why for things like chicken pox you only get it once. And in the vast majority of cases, a person getting vaccinated will only have a very minor response to the vaccine, if anything. It's not dumb, it's the most effective way to prevent the full-blown disease (actually other than complete isolation, it's the ONLY way to prevent it with anything close to 100% effectiveness).

Your mom's scar wraps up my thoughts nicely. It is an example of smallpox vaccination, where smallpox is the one disease that vaccination has completely eradicated from the face of the earth. That's why you don't have one - the herd was immunized and no hosts for the disease were left. Read about polio - another disease that is at the brink of extinction if proper vaccinations are continued in the developing world.

Vaccinations are single-handedly the greatest human achievement in terms of extending life expectancy and quality of life. But feel free to believe otherwise and put both yourself and the rest of us at risk if you want.

[Hyperion]

I didn't know where you were going in your first couple posts on this thread, and it was threatening our friendship. But you pulled through splendidly.

[Aitch]

I didn't know where you were going in your first couple posts on this thread, and it was threatening our friendship. But you pulled through splendidly.

Everything before my last post was either from my phone or in the last 5 minutes before I left work.

BTW if anyone is wondering, my 2 year old is fully vaccinated.

[slam525i]

I love the smallpox story.

In 1967, 2 MILLION people died of smallpox (mostly in third world areas).

In 1977, the last person ever to get small pox was found. He lived.
In 1978, 2 people were infected. 1 died. (accidental laboratory infection)
In 1979, 0
In 1980, 0
In 1981, 0
.
.
.
In 2014, 0

Because SCIENCE



So, obviously I'm a little passionate about this and my tone may have come off a bit negative. To atone for that, I'm making the following offer:

ASK ME ANYTHING ABOUT VACCINES

I promise I won't be snarky. I won't be condescending. I won't be aggressive, and I won't be angry. I will answer your questions at any level of scientific knowledge you have, whether that's grade-school level science, or you want a proper, fully referenced PhD level reply that will stand up to peer review. The only thing I ask in return is that you fully read the answer, and that you try to understand. You don't have to agree, but you have to try to understand. (For reference, I'm finishing my PhD. I have an BSc and MSc both in microbiology. I have taught microbiology and science in both undergrad and post-graduate courses in university.)

[m_bisson]

People trust the media more than science.... I wish we could all have matrix things in the back of our heads. I'm getting tired of explaining common sense lol.

[Fobio]

So.. I see this useful discussion on a car forum is really advancing the "What's the best lip for a MS3?" research on development...[ppl are asking about what's the best lip in the MS3 section...]

Carry on...and let's start debating about politics and religion next...

[CloudPump]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RfdZTZQvuCo

-Geoff

[r4mi5awi]

I will post from the medical standpoint when I'm free later on tonight. In the meantime, just remember Jenny McCarthy :p

[geobur]

I am not entirely sure how I feel about Vaccines, anymore...but I am sort of discouraged with "modern medicine" as a whole now anyways.

To explain myself a bit. My family had taken the flu shot every year up until the year I was diagnosed with cancer, and was going through chemotherapy. My Oncologist obviously said I couldn't get one because of my immune system being weak, but he also suggested against my parents getting it...It was I believe 2010 that year and my Oncologist wasn't even sold on that years flu shot.

My family hasn't had one since, and we haven't had any major flu symptoms since. I used to get the flu probably once a year when I did get the shots. They didn't necessarily last for very long but I got the flu once a year. Now I can't remember the last time I had the flu.

as for not having much faith in "modern medicine" anymore well that is possibly topic for a different thread as not to derail this one on vaccines.

[CloudPump]

I am not entirely sure how I feel about Vaccines, anymore...but I am sort of discouraged with "modern medicine" as a whole now anyways.

To explain myself a bit. My family had taken the flu shot every year up until the year I was diagnosed with cancer, and was going through chemotherapy. My Oncologist obviously said I couldn't get one because of my immune system being weak, but he also suggested against my parents getting it...It was I believe 2010 that year and my Oncologist wasn't even sold on that years flu shot.

My family hasn't had one since, and we haven't had any major flu symptoms since. I used to get the flu probably once a year when I did get the shots. They didn't necessarily last for very long but I got the flu once a year. Now I can't remember the last time I had the flu.

as for not having much faith in "modern medicine" anymore well that is possibly topic for a different thread as not to derail this one on vaccines.

Read up on the flu shot.

The flu is a morphing virus, like the common cold. They can guesstimate what strain they perceive will be predominate in a given year, but it's just that, a guesstimate.

Think of it like a square peg/round hole situation. This year they think the peg is going to be square, so they design a square hole. Turns out that the square morphed into a triangle and now the flu shot isn't the right one.

This is not the case for things like smallpox where the virus didn't morph, hence the one vaccine that has erradicated the disease.

-Geoff

[Aitch]

So.. I see this useful discussion on a car forum is really advancing the "What's the best lip for a MS3?" research on development...[ppl are asking about what's the best lip in the MS3 section...]

Carry on...and let's start debating about politics and religion next...

I don't know where you're going with this..... I'll assume its straight sarcasm, because if it's not:

This thread is posted in the General Lounge, quote "Discussion on everything unrelated. Anything goes."

Where we never talk about religion (1 (http://www.torontomazda3.ca/forum/showthread.php?74489-An-Intriguing-Question&highlight=religion)) politics (2 (http://www.torontomazda3.ca/forum/showthread.php?47505-Lets-Discuss-Immigration&highlight=religion), 3 (http://www.torontomazda3.ca/forum/showthread.php?63858-6-4-Warning-politics&highlight=politics) [you posted in this one], 4 (http://www.torontomazda3.ca/forum/showthread.php?52886-Debate-anyone&highlight=politics), 5 (http://www.torontomazda3.ca/forum/showthread.php?45194-G20-official-thread&highlight=politics)), or both combined (6 (http://www.torontomazda3.ca/forum/showthread.php?66755-Catholic-school-funding-being-challenged&highlight=religion)). It's not like we ever went on for 18 pages about Rob Ford (http://www.torontomazda3.ca/forum/showthread.php?73365-So-what-if-he-s-a-crack-head-We-already-knew-that) or have threads on him before that one (7 (http://www.torontomazda3.ca/forum/showthread.php?64871-Rob-Ford-asks-gangs-to-leave-city))

Hey, look who posted in a thread about cultural backgrounds (http://www.torontomazda3.ca/forum/showthread.php?43132-rant-quot-Is-it-just-me-!!-quot&p=595968&viewfull=1#post595968)?

So why can't a bunch of people who share a common interest in cars talk about other topics? That's the whole point of the General Lounge.

[geobur]

Read up on the flu shot.

The flu is a morphing virus, like the common cold. They can guesstimate what strain they perceive will be predominate in a given year, but it's just that, a guesstimate.

Think of it like a square peg/round hole situation. This year they think the peg is going to be square, so they design a square hole. Turns out that the square morphed into a triangle and now the flu shot isn't the right one.

This is not the case for things like smallpox where the virus didn't morph, hence the one vaccine that has erradicated the disease.

-Geoff

oh don't get me wrong...I have no problem with those other vaccines...they have clearly worked. And long term side effects? meh we have been through enough generations to figure that out by now. I am not arguing the effectiveness of most vaccines...I just don't like the flu shot. My viewpoint is...if I have a trained doctor give a wishy washy answer to my parents like..."well if you get one it would be safer for him with what he is going through...but there are some problems it is something you guys should think about" I don't really want to be putting it into my body...if a doctor can't whole heatedly tell me it is ok and that he recommends it (and even then I think doctors recommend things they might not generally use on themselves because they get sponsoring from pharmaceutical companies...they are the thing I have the most hate for...not necessarily doctors.)

[slam525i]

I am not entirely sure how I feel about Vaccines, anymore...but I am sort of discouraged with "modern medicine" as a whole now anyways.

To explain myself a bit. My family had taken the flu shot every year up until the year I was diagnosed with cancer, and was going through chemotherapy. My Oncologist obviously said I couldn't get one because of my immune system being weak, but he also suggested against my parents getting it...It was I believe 2010 that year and my Oncologist wasn't even sold on that years flu shot.

My family hasn't had one since, and we haven't had any major flu symptoms since. I used to get the flu probably once a year when I did get the shots. They didn't necessarily last for very long but I got the flu once a year. Now I can't remember the last time I had the flu.

as for not having much faith in "modern medicine" anymore well that is possibly topic for a different thread as not to derail this one on vaccines.

I'm sorry to hear that, but your oncologist is wrong and needs to speak with a microbiologist/immunologist. Please follow up with him and ask him to explain the following.

Yes, it's true that your immune system being weak makes it questionable whether you should get the vaccine. 1) You could get the vaccine but your weakened immune response fails to respond to it. 2) Your already weakened stated could make the temporary side effects of your body responding ot the vaccine more severe.

However, your parents should definitely get the vaccince. If they get the flu, they're much more likely to pass it on to you, who is less able to deal with it. If they get the vaccine, they reduce the likelihood of passing it to you.

There are lots of people cases where people say they never get the flu until they started getting the vaccine, or they always got the flu until they stopped getting the vaccine. That isn't supported by epidemiological studies (statistics). It can, and it does happen, to individuals, just like some people "always" make a few bucks at the casinos. Part of the problem is most people get the vaccine, and is protected from those strains (sub-species/types) of flu, and then don't think about it. However, if you made a change (either by starting or stopping vaccination), and the results are different from what you expect, you make a stronger mental-note of it. That's called "recall-bias" and skews the numbers. In addition, by stopping the vaccine, you believe you're doing the right thing. If the result is worse than what you expected, then you'll have to admit that it was the wrong decision. That's called "cognitive dissonance" and results in some people suppressing or altering their memory sub-consciously. (I'm not saying you're doing that. I'm saying it happens.)

[Maz3Dan]

I always have this arguement with two friends of mine.

It's simple...i ask...do you miss polio?

If no, thank vaccination.

[loki]

ok let's not compare the flu vaccine to other vaccines out there and say because you got the flu shot and got the flu that vaccines are useless


that's like getting a nail in your tire and saying tires are useless

[Maz3Dan]

ok let's not compare the flu vaccine to other vaccines out there and say because you got the flu shot and got the flu that vaccines are useless


that's like getting a nail in your tire and saying tires are useless


I agree!

At the same time, the flu vaccine isn't what it used to be. They no longer have active flu strains in them. If this were the 60s-90s i'd give anti flu vaccine cats their due. It's a brand new day, and getting sick from the flu vaccination is such a minute possibility.

[slam525i]

Read up on the flu shot.

The flu is a morphing virus, like the common cold. They can guesstimate what strain they perceive will be predominate in a given year, but it's just that, a guesstimate.

Think of it like a square peg/round hole situation. This year they think the peg is going to be square, so they design a square hole. Turns out that the square morphed into a triangle and now the flu shot isn't the right one.

This is not the case for things like smallpox where the virus didn't morph, hence the one vaccine that has erradicated the disease.

-Geoff

A little additional information:

Each year, there is a very complex and sophisticated monitoring program run by the World Health Organization that looks at cases of flu as they are reported up to a year before the flu season. From that, they determine which strains (sub-types) are likely to be widespread, taking into account things like the number of cases as well as how different they are compared with last year's flu vaccine strains. (The closer a strain is to last year's vaccine, the less important it will be because last year's vaccine will provide you with some protection against the new, similar one.) It's all very scientific, but it's also not perfect.

Part of the reason it doesn't work as well as we want it to, is because by selecting some strains for the vaccine, the other strains now become automatically more successful. It's like trying to stop a flood. Say high water is getting in from your front door and your garage, so you sandbag them. But then the water gets high enough and starts coming in through your dryer vent and into your house. So, by blocking (vaccinating) against the obvious strains, some other strains stand a better chance of success. The key is to protect the population (your house) as well as possible for as long as possible. The strains that get through will do so much later, slower, and cause less damage to the population as a whole. (In the analogy, that would be saying the water coming through the dryer vent is slower, happens later, and causes less damage.)

The reason we need the flu vaccine every year is that the strains reproduce, just like humans. If two strains hit a human or animal at the same time (animal, hence terms like swine flu and avian flu), they can exchange genes. This is similar to how you and your wife/husband have kids, and the kids are a mix of you both. Humans can then pick up these strains from the animals. Given how big the world is, and how closely humans live with farm animals in some areas, this happens a LOT. (The virus can also mutate all on its own, but his happens a lot slower and is less of a problem.) This newly made virus has the advantage of not having been seen before by our immune system, and becomes a problem.

[geobur]

I'm sorry to hear that, but your oncologist is wrong and needs to speak with a microbiologist/immunologist. Please follow up with him and ask him to explain the following.

Yes, it's true that your immune system being weak makes it questionable whether you should get the vaccine. 1) You could get the vaccine but your weakened immune response fails to respond to it. 2) Your already weakened stated could make the temporary side effects of your body responding ot the vaccine more severe.

However, your parents should definitely get the vaccince. If they get the flu, they're much more likely to pass it on to you, who is less able to deal with it. If they get the vaccine, they reduce the likelihood of passing it to you.

There are lots of people cases where people say they never get the flu until they started getting the vaccine, or they always got the flu until they stopped getting the vaccine. That isn't supported by epidemiological studies (statistics). It can, and it does happen, to individuals, just like some people "always" make a few bucks at the casinos. Part of the problem is most people get the vaccine, and is protected from those strains (sub-species/types) of flu, and then don't think about it. However, if you made a change (either by starting or stopping vaccination), and the results are different from what you expect, you make a stronger mental-note of it. That's called "recall-bias" and skews the numbers. In addition, by stopping the vaccine, you believe you're doing the right thing. If the result is worse than what you expected, then you'll have to admit that it was the wrong decision. That's called "cognitive dissonance" and results in some people suppressing or altering their memory sub-consciously. (I'm not saying you're doing that. I'm saying it happens.)

Perhaps, like I said I don't pretend to know or understand this stuff...but I am wary of trusting people about things I know little about...like I am nervous about trusting mechanics...it is too easy for them to lie to me for their own good. (Thankfully I found Jimmy who I trust whole heartedly) also just like people find it difficult to trust computer techs like me (I have to work very hard to maintain peoples trust when it comes to fixing their computers for them)

However, I do trust (for the most part) my oncologist and what he told me in regards to me getting the shot is that it was absolutely out of the question while I was going through chemo (I could get it now) But he said because it is a live virus vaccine with my lowered immune system it would be as good as injecting me with the flu virus and not having the immune system to fight it...thus he said it could feasibly kill me.

[slam525i]

oh don't get me wrong...I have no problem with those other vaccines...they have clearly worked. And long term side effects? meh we have been through enough generations to figure that out by now. I am not arguing the effectiveness of most vaccines...I just don't like the flu shot. My viewpoint is...if I have a trained doctor give a wishy washy answer to my parents like..."well if you get one it would be safer for him with what he is going through...but there are some problems it is something you guys should think about" I don't really want to be putting it into my body...if a doctor can't whole heatedly tell me it is ok and that he recommends it (and even then I think doctors recommend things they might not generally use on themselves because they get sponsoring from pharmaceutical companies...they are the thing I have the most hate for...not necessarily doctors.)

If you have a trained doctor not recommending the flu vaccine and you have no conditions that prohibit you from getting the vaccine, you should get a new doctor. For you personally, it may only save you a few days of being in bed with the flu. That's not a big deal. But, if you are vaccinated, it means you cannot get the flu and pass it onto someone else. It breaks the chain. For people who are old and/or weak, you breaking the chain could be life or death, and you will never even know it.

If you have a condition that prohibits you from getting a vaccine, then you should hope everybody else around you is vaccinated so they can't pass the disease on to you.

The flu vaccine isn't perfect, but the more people get it, the more we can protect those who cannot get it for themselves. I can understand people being doubtful about the flu vaccine because its so imperfect compared to other vaccines. I mean, the other vaccines almost completely guarantees protection. The flu shots don't, and so it seems ineffective, but its a hell of a lot better than nothing.

[Fobio]

I don't know where you're going with this..... I'll assume its straight sarcasm, because if it's not:

This thread is posted in the General Lounge, quote "Discussion on everything unrelated. Anything goes."

Where we never talk about religion (1 (http://www.torontomazda3.ca/forum/showthread.php?74489-An-Intriguing-Question&highlight=religion)) politics (2 (http://www.torontomazda3.ca/forum/showthread.php?47505-Lets-Discuss-Immigration&highlight=religion), 3 (http://www.torontomazda3.ca/forum/showthread.php?63858-6-4-Warning-politics&highlight=politics) [you posted in this one], 4 (http://www.torontomazda3.ca/forum/showthread.php?52886-Debate-anyone&highlight=politics), 5 (http://www.torontomazda3.ca/forum/showthread.php?45194-G20-official-thread&highlight=politics)), or both combined (6 (http://www.torontomazda3.ca/forum/showthread.php?66755-Catholic-school-funding-being-challenged&highlight=religion)). It's not like we ever went on for 18 pages about Rob Ford (http://www.torontomazda3.ca/forum/showthread.php?73365-So-what-if-he-s-a-crack-head-We-already-knew-that) or have threads on him before that one (7 (http://www.torontomazda3.ca/forum/showthread.php?64871-Rob-Ford-asks-gangs-to-leave-city))

Hey, look who posted in a thread about cultural backgrounds (http://www.torontomazda3.ca/forum/showthread.php?43132-rant-quot-Is-it-just-me-!!-quot&p=595968&viewfull=1#post595968)?

So why can't a bunch of people who share a common interest in cars talk about other topics? That's the whole point of the General Lounge.

Not to tear this topic off on a tangent...but I commented light heartedly, if you can't tell.

I find certain topics to be more divisive than of common ground. Hot issue topics like this generate more trolling than meaningful discussion. it's one of those topics that typically devolve into being someone called a Nazi [internet rule].

As I have said to many in person, our common ground is our car. Other than that, it's ridiculous to expect ppl to *THINK* the same just cuz they own the same car.

On top of it, I didn't know that a car forum was meant to sway opinion about divisive matters. This is just my opinion. There are tons of threads on this site not about cars, but generally, they are car themed or in good humour.

I personally have a lot of opinions on matters such as this...but I also grow tired of arguing against the headstrong and less-than-well-informed individuals about really matters than are of a more personal nature. On top of that, let's say someone did get swayed by your superior logic, then goes and does something maybe they shouldn't...blah blah blah.

I think as a mod, you guys should realize that this isn't just some personal sandbox. It's a public forum about cars..a very popular one. If you guys think this should be a forum for personal views, then by all means carry on. Just know that when the topic gets divisive and devolves into meaningless drivel anyway, then does it actually add to the substance of the forum? I think that is a more measured view with regards these types of topics. You know...before we go on a meaningful discussion about abortion and creationist/evolutionist debates.

You know what a good one to talk about that everyone can agree on that kinda a hot potato without completely being one...senate reform! How about that?

[slam525i]

However, I do trust (for the most part) my oncologist and what he told me in regards to me getting the shot is that it was absolutely out of the question while I was going through chemo (I could get it now) But he said because it is a live virus vaccine with my lowered immune system it would be as good as injecting me with the flu virus and not having the immune system to fight it...thus he said it could feasibly kill me.

I totally agree that you shouldn't get vaccinated if your oncologist recommends against it for good reason. It's not worth the risk even if it's small. (It won't kill you dead like that, but your body won't tolerate it as well.) Better safe than sorry. It depends very much on the type and severity of the cancer. (The UK guidelines specifically mention people on chemotherapy and their family should especially consider getting the vaccine because of their weakened immune system.)

What I'm worried about is him saying your family shouldn't get it. Your family are the people you'll most likely get flu from, so by getting the vaccine, they'd help protect you. You can't get disease from an "inactivated" vaccine (the virus is killed, and then broken up during manufacturing).

[Aitch]

Fobio, most of the car forums I've ever been on have always had some sort of lounge sub-forum where topics such as this take place. As a member (not as a mod) I enjoy hanging out here and discussing whatever topics arise, whether car related, light-hearted takes on current issues, or in-depth discussions about hot topics - even if things get heated and people disagree with each other. That's real life. I want to discuss anything and everything with people on here just like I do in real life. If I didn't want to debate someone about their opinions on a topic I feel strongly about , I wouldn't post in that thread.

As a TM3 member, if we couldn't discuss this stuff I would be less inclined to come and spend time here. And as a moderator, I'm more than happy to give these discussions a home. As long as things don't devolve into a flame war or we see personal insults/attacks getting thrown around, I'm fine with it. I'd actually argue that being able to discuss stuff like this enhances user engagement on the site, rather than detracts from it.

[fruitloops]

Anddd.... if you don't like the discussion, you don't have to read it.

[Fobio]

I'm all for discussion. But this thread is labelled rant.

Anyway. If the mods are looking after this thread full time to keep it civil... Then carry on.

[loki]

Anddd.... if you don't like the discussion, you don't have to read it.

Before giving instructions to our more senior members please contrubute something of substance

[m_bisson]

Before giving instructions to our more senior members please contrubute something of substance

Before giving orders to newer members who don't know better, give them a chance to learn on their own.

[loki]

Before giving orders to newer members who don't know better, give them a chance to learn on their own.

We have


Thanks for the advice though

[m_bisson]

We have


Thanks for the advice though

"we"? I've been here longer than you, and I happen to agree with his post. Thanks for your concern though, but I don't think the forums need your policing on this particular issue.

[loki]

"we"? I've been here longer than you, and I happen to agree with his post. Thanks for your concern though, but I don't think the forums need your policing on this particular issue.

Again, thanks

[The Wolf]

I'm all for open discussion but this thread is literally a shooting range for "intelligent" members to make fun of people who
a)haven't done research
b)don't believe the powers that be are completely honest with them
This thread literally has no value other than to help one group of people figure out who they can make fun of.

Personally, I don't get the flu shot. Not because I think it'll kill me or make my babies The Rain Man, but mostly just because it's more convenient not to. I don't ever get sick (even when my GF and family and coworkers do), so I don't bother. Yes I know it's more to prevent the spread, but if you're concerned, get the shot. I haven't thad the flu in 10 years and needles hurt more than not needles.

I can understand the hesitance regarding vaccinations. There are a lot of poisonous chemicals used to make vaccination shots, and we have to take the word of someone we don't know that they are safe.
It all boils down to trust. Ask yourself: Can you trust the people pushing the vaccines? Do they stand to gain anything by hiding potentially dangerous side-effects? Have you been lied to by people you have trusted in the past? Would they do it again?
Remember when "they" told the public that there was no link between cigarettes and cancer? Remember when "they" told the public that marijuana was a dangerous addictive drug that would kill you? Remember when "they" told you that they would use tax dollars for X but never did?

So when someone is skeptical when they are told vaccines are 100% safe, do you really blame them?

[SKyactivmanny]

My worthless 2 cents, vaccines are only useful for things like polio etc. The common cold and the flu will be around for as long as there are humans on earth and longer. Put it this way, the more poison you feed rats over generations the more immune they will become. If you keep getting vaccinated for pu*sy sicknesses like the flu the weaker your immune system becomes to fight it. Everyone gets sick at one point and it sucks but you tough it out, thats how you become stronger. If you keep getting shots you'll end up like the kid from the walking dead, dead from the flu during a facking zombie apocalypse. Thats natures way of telling you that you're a vag.

[midnightfxgt]

I'm all for open discussion but this thread is literally a shooting range for "intelligent" members to make fun of people who
a)haven't done research
b)don't believe the powers that be are completely honest with them

This thread literally has no value other than to help one group of people figure out who they can make fun of.


Agreed! The only value could be that those people may realize that Vaccines are the greater good. Hopefully anyways :)

I usually sit back and chuckle a little at people who are against them. Most (if not all) spout opinion, or talk about a tiny sample size (friend of a friend, cousin, themselves etc).

[m_bisson]

Parents, let your kids play in the mud, with bugs, and don't freak out every time they put a toy or something in their mouth. Get them vaccinated!
Your body is a big hotel for bacteria, so make sure your kids get a wide variety of bugs while they're young. That's the best way to build a strong immune system.

Fun facts: babies born vaginally get covered in their first dose of bacteria. Babies born via cesarean don't get those bugs.
There's also a type of bacteria that grows in the skin around lactating nipples, which, when ingested by a baby, can actually aid in the digestion of milk(since that's what the bacteria feeds on). Bottle fed babies, again, miss out on that.

[The Wolf]

Agreed! The only value could be that those people may realize that Vaccines are the greater good. Hopefully anyways :)

I usually sit back and chuckle a little at people who are against them. Most (if not all) spout opinion, or talk about a tiny sample size (friend of a friend, cousin, themselves etc).

unfortunately, approximately 0% of people (maybe less) who ignore the "overwhelming evidence" in favour of a less popular opinion will change their minds based on an internet forum discussion.

[slam525i]

My worthless 2 cents, vaccines are only useful for things like polio etc. The common cold and the flu will be around for as long as there are humans on earth and longer. Put it this way, the more poison you feed rats over generations the more immune they will become. If you keep getting vaccinated for pu*sy sicknesses like the flu the weaker your immune system becomes to fight it. Everyone gets sick at one point and it sucks but you tough it out, thats how you become stronger. If you keep getting shots you'll end up like the kid from the walking dead, dead from the flu during a facking zombie apocalypse. Thats natures way of telling you that you're a vag.

Your immune system doesn't get weaker by being immunized. I don't know where people get that idea, but there's no scientific basis for it. The generation of IgG antibodies, B cells, and memory T cells occur whether you are exposed to inactivated virus proteins, or whether you get ill; it's just that being ill sucks. And worse, passing onto people who are weak sucks. There's no "exercise" effect on your immune system by getting sick.

The more rat poison you feed rats, the more tolerant they become. The more antibiotics we give to people and animals, the more resistant the bacteria becomes. That doesn't happen to viruses because you're not selecting against the weak ones; you're simply blocking them from growing at all. That said, there is a worry that by effectively blocking one sub-type of virus, a different one becomes dominant. This is an issue with the HPV (Human Papilloma Virus, also known as the cervical cancer) vaccine, and to a lesser extent the flu vaccine. The point is to prevent whatever illnesses and deaths you can. With the flu, new sub-types will emerge next year anyway, so why not immunize yourself against the sub-types of this year?

"Nature's way of telling you that you're a vag" is to make you sick and kill you dead. I want to live.

[The Wolf]

Vaccination is giving you a small amount of the virus. It's the same principle of letting your kid get dirty. The issue is not whether or not vaccination works, it's whether or not getting vaccinated is worth it when it means putting a bunch of potentially dangerous chemicals in your body.

The only reason the flu vaccine sometimes fails is because it's based on a prediction of a constantly mutating virus that isn't always correct.

[midnightfxgt]

unfortunately, approximately 0% of people (maybe less) who ignore the "overwhelming evidence" in favour of a less popular opinion will change their minds based on an internet forum discussion.

True. I am overly optimistic sometimes LOL.

[slam525i]

Parents, let your kids play in the mud, with bugs, and don't freak out every time they put a toy or something in their mouth. Get them vaccinated!
Your body is a big hotel for bacteria, so make sure your kids get a wide variety of bugs while they're young. That's the best way to build a strong immune system.

Fun facts: babies born vaginally get covered in their first dose of bacteria. Babies born via cesarean don't get those bugs.
There's also a type of bacteria that grows in the skin around lactating nipples, which, when ingested by a baby, can actually aid in the digestion of milk(since that's what the bacteria feeds on). Bottle fed babies, again, miss out on that.

There's a whole "hygiene hypothesis" that says western countries, especially the Nordic, Scandinavian ones, get higher rates of allergies because they're too clean; their bodies aren't used to reacting to a little bit of dirt, and so the response is higher than normal. I plan to have my kids roll around in dirt too. And get them vaccinated, of course.

You're totally right about vaginal births and lactose bacteria. Here's another fun fact: There is about 10x more bacterial cells in your body than your own cells. (Obviously, bacterial cells are much smaller.) They're actually good for us.

[slam525i]

Vaccination is giving you a small amount of the virus. It's the same principle of letting your kid get dirty. The issue is not whether or not vaccination works, it's whether or not getting vaccinated is worth it when it means putting a bunch of potentially dangerous chemicals in your body.

What potentially dangerous chemicals?

[The Wolf]

Chemicals: Ammonium Phosphate, Formaldehyde.
Elements: Mercury, Aluminum.
Perhaps there are others, haven't made a vaccine myself so I couldn't say with certainty.

[miako]

I think The Wolf was referring to the Original post, that is post #1

"If you mixed Mercury, Aluminum phosphat Amonium sulfate, and formaldehyde with viruses.... "




Edit: and The Wolf beat me to it

[midnightfxgt]

"If you mixed Mercury, Aluminum phosphat Amonium sulfate, and formaldehyde with viruses.... "

I would never.... but I would let a large team of experts ;)

[The Wolf]

I would never.... but I would let a large team of experts ;)

I would for polio and smallpox. Maybe not so much the flu where my greatest danger is kneeling in front of the shitter for an hour one night of the year.

[midnightfxgt]

I would for polio and smallpox. Maybe not so much the flu where my greatest danger is kneeling in front of the shitter for an hour one night of the year.

Ya. I never get the flu (knock on wood), so I don't bother to get the shot either. It's a hassle and I am beyond lazy

[SKyactivmanny]

Your immune system doesn't get weaker by being immunized. I don't know where people get that idea, but there's no scientific basis for it. The generation of IgG antibodies, B cells, and memory T cells occur whether you are exposed to inactivated virus proteins, or whether you get ill; it's just that being ill sucks. And worse, passing onto people who are weak sucks. There's no "exercise" effect on your immune system by getting sick.

The more rat poison you feed rats, the more tolerant they become. The more antibiotics we give to people and animals, the more resistant the bacteria becomes. That doesn't happen to viruses because you're not selecting against the weak ones; you're simply blocking them from growing at all. That said, there is a worry that by effectively blocking one sub-type of virus, a different one becomes dominant. This is an issue with the HPV (Human Papilloma Virus, also known as the cervical cancer) vaccine, and to a lesser extent the flu vaccine. The point is to prevent whatever illnesses and deaths you can. With the flu, new sub-types will emerge next year anyway, so why not immunize yourself against the sub-types of this year?

"Nature's way of telling you that you're a vag" is to make you sick and kill you dead. I want to live.

If thats the case would in not be better to just go with the flow and just get sick?

[slam525i]

Ammonium salts are used to precipitate (drop out of solution) proteins while purifying the products. It's safe. it's used as a food additive. Plus it's removed after use.

Formaldehyde is used to inactivate (i.e. kill) viruses and acts as a preservative. It's harmless in the concentrations you find in a vial of vaccine. Your body makes it anyway, so you probably have more formaldehyde in you right now than a life time of vaccines.

Mercury, by which I assume you mean thimerosal. It's a preservative. It's harmless. It's important to know the difference between elemental mercury, which is a neurotoxin and will bind to your own molecules inside your body, and ethylmercury, which because it's stably bound already, won't stick. You'll literally just pee it out. ("small differences" like this is important. Comparing mercury with ethylmercury is like comparing table salt (NaCl) with chlorine (Cl). One is very safe, and one will fricking kill you dead.)

Aluminum. Aluminum is the 3rd most common element on earth. Canned-food cans is made of aluminum. There is nothing un-safe about aluminum. You swallow every day about 10x in aluminum in food, compared with what you would get a in a vaccine. Aluminum is in vaccines because it helps show your immune system the vaccine itself. That's called an "adjuvant". It makes the vaccine work better at a lower dose.

As I said earlier, I'm happy to answer any question about vaccines. And I'll be nice about it too!

[slam525i]

If thats the case would in not be better to just go with the flow and just get sick?

In the case of the flu: Because getting sick sucks. And when you're sick, you may pass it onto someone else, even if you don't feel sick at the time. If you pass it onto someone who's ill and can't fight it off, you might kill them. Every successful vaccination eliminates one additional person from being able to spread the bug, breaks that potential infection chain, and helps push the levels towards good "herd immunity".

It you don't get the flu one, I'm not going to be angry and beat you over the head with it. It's all the other vaccines that people completely 100% need to get.

[Aitch]

[brain dump by slam525i]

You explained this far better than I ever could have. The "potentially dangerous chemicals and elements" argument is dealt was also dealt with particularly nicely by the image in the opening post of this thread. I get people not wanting to get the flu shot because of inconvenience and the low risk of harm to healthy individuals from the flu - hell some years I don't bother with it. Now that I've got a kid in daycare I usually do though. But there is nothing inherently dangerous about most vaccines which are formulated by reams of experts.

I thought the earlier point about mechanics was an apt example, especially the point about "Thank god we have Jimmy" (at Street Performance). If you don't consider your doctor the expert about your health as you do Jimmy about your car, get a new doctor. They should be on the same level. The majority of the population are not doctors, nor are experts in health or medicine. This means you should have someone you can rely on to be the expert in your healthcare. And guess what, we live in Canada so that privilege is free! Take advantage of it, don't fear it. Doctors don't have vested interests in getting you to take most vaccines (either the flu shot or the ones for most preventable diseases). They're recommending them for your health and the health of the population - that's the interest they put first and foremost.

[SKyactivmanny]

In the case of the flu: Because getting sick sucks. And when you're sick, you may pass it onto someone else, even if you don't feel sick at the time. If you pass it onto someone who's ill and can't fight it off, you might kill them. Every successful vaccination eliminates one additional person from being able to spread the bug, breaks that potential infection chain, and helps push the levels towards good "herd immunity".

It you don't get the flu one, I'm not going to be angry and beat you over the head with it. It's all the other vaccines that people completely 100% need to get.

Right right the flu one of course i doubt it'll work the same with aids lol.

[Aitch]

Sorry Steve I need to come back to something here.


I'm all for open discussion but this thread is literally a shooting range for "intelligent" members to make fun of people who
a)haven't done research
b)don't believe the powers that be are completely honest with them
This thread literally has no value other than to help one group of people figure out who they can make fun of.

I'll admit I've done some literal and figurative "shake my head" moments at a couple of the initial posts here. But it's not about making fun of people who are ignorant of the facts and don't trust experts in the matters - it's about trying to correct those perceptions by providing actual facts (with references where necessary). Perhaps there is 0% chance of those perceptions changing, but if the alternative is not to provide any counterpoint to "vaccines are useless" posts then you eventually end up with a legion of Jenny McCarthys on TV spouting ignorance as scientific fact.

[The Wolf]

The main problem is that people don't know who to believe anymore. They've been lied to so many times about nearly everything that truth becomes relative and impossible to distinguish.

You never ask the pawn shop owner what your grandmother's jewelry is worth.

[peterm15]

Personally I havent done much research on vaccination. If my doctor told me I should I will (for future children)

But I can understand peoples concern based on nothing but the fact that over the last few years some doctors (not my gp) have seem to become salesman as well. Carrying products for sale by them directly. It makes you think that maybe the doctor have the drug companies filling their pockets and is what they are suggesting really the best thing for you.

[The Wolf]

I'm convinced that everyone on this forum thinks I wear a tin foil hat LOL. For the record I like to play devil's advocate on a lot of subjects just to satisfy my curiosity and to explore ideas.
I also want to go on record to say that I don't believe vaccines are inherently dangerous. My point in all of this is that you have to understand why people are skeptical in the first place. Every fact can and has been manipulated to benefit someone. It was just a few decades ago that we thought homosexuality was a disease, or that illness was a punishment by God. If you didn't believe those things, you were a lunatic. For God's sake, you still might think that if you watch Fox News.

My point is that we really can't know which way is up anymore.

[JD@WhitbyMazda]

My wife got all paranoid on me about vaccines with our first daughter. She's now 4 years old and gets her shots regularly. My second daughter is already getting hers done.

I've never personally had a flu shot, but the rest of the family gets them. None has gotten sick from it. I probably should get them done but I don't fall ill very often.

I recall reading that 'autism' is now much more encompassing than it used to be which is creating a rise in the number of cases observed. Just my 0.02, but I personally don't see a reason not to vaccine.

[midnightfxgt]

I recall reading that 'autism' is now much more encompassing than it used to be which is creating a rise in the number of cases observed...

More encompassing, better diagnosed (some would say over-diagnosed) etc. Plus no real studies to back up the myth linking it to vaccines.

The internet is a great place for information, and Mis-information.

[m_bisson]

My wife got all paranoid on me about vaccines with our first daughter. She's now 4 years old and gets her shots regularly. My second daughter is already getting hers done.

I've never personally had a flu shot, but the rest of the family gets them. None has gotten sick from it. I probably should get them done but I don't fall ill very often.

I recall reading that 'autism' is now much more encompassing than it used to be which is creating a rise in the number of cases observed. Just my 0.02, but I personally don't see a reason not to vaccine.

Wrong-ish. They've updated the diagnoses criteria for autism AGAIN. So people that fell into that category previously are no longer going to be included. It's hard to say where to draw the line. It's possible people who don't need treatment are getting it, and those who need it aren't getting it.... Psychology is a whole other ULTIMATE THREAD WAR waiting to be started.

[Kiewan]

slam525i taking you up on your questions offer.
I understand the function of a vaccine but could you maybe answer/ give some possiblitites as to why I got sick after taking the fall flu shot? I got sick about 12 hours after receiving the shot, with 'flu like' symptoms. I took it on advice from my doctor as well. I'm not opposed to taking future vaccines when needed but I had a rough 2 months.

[FoXy]

Im enjoying spectating on this.

But I too have questions and wonder about vacinating babies. I don't know all that much about it but at the same time I dont know what is right and what is wrong. Everyone medical or not has a different opinion on it.

Maybe vaccines are not linked to autism, but could they be linked to other things? No doctor or medical professional knows all, nor would they want to admit that there could be side effects that are still unknown.

What about SIDS? It seems as though no one has an answer to that either. That scares me.

I dont have kids yet but I will in the next year or 2 and these are things I think about. I have friends who have vaccinated, and also not vaccinated.

As a new mother, these are things that you stress about. Especially the first time around since you dont know what to expect.

[fruitloops]

http://themattwalshblog.com/2013/09/07/i-am-a-biological-terrorist-because-my-kids-didnt-get-a-vaccine/
slam525i

READ THIS GUISE

[fruitloops]

http://themattwalshblog.com/2013/01/08/hey-while-youre-here-let-me-inject-you-with-this-virus-real-quick/?relatedposts_exclude=1282

Not as long, but had some key points. Plus you can get a free chicken sandwich with a flu shot.

[slam525i]

@slam525i (http://www.torontomazda3.ca/forum/member.php?u=7966) taking you up on your questions offer.
I understand the function of a vaccine but could you maybe answer/ give some possiblitites as to why I got sick after taking the fall flu shot? I got sick about 12 hours after receiving the shot, with 'flu like' symptoms. I took it on advice from my doctor as well. I'm not opposed to taking future vaccines when needed but I had a rough 2 months.

That's always a hard question, mainly because its impossible to determine the answer afterwards.

The "flu like symptoms" are what you get when your body tries to fight off an infection. If your body didn't respond to flu at all, you wouldn't even notice it when you first get infected (unless you got really sick, which you would, if your body didn't respond at all).

For most people most of the time, the immune stimulation (i.e. the vaccine doing it's thing) is so low that you won't notice it. For some people some of the time, whether its because they're weakened already, or they're naturally like that, they have a stronger response. The body responds to the vaccine in a way that's somewhat similar to how it responds to a real infection, although its supposed to be at a much lower strength, so you can end up with "flu like symptoms". That said, just because you had a stronger response once doesn't mean you'll get a strong response next time, again, because it depends on many factors. If it happens repeatedly, you probably should talk to your doctor and consider not taking the flu vaccine, or change brands. (Yes, there are different brands, and they're slightly different, and they're made using different methods. Some people may react a little differently to different brands.)

The other possibility, is that you were unlucky and you simply got infected shortly after or shortly before you got the vaccine. The vaccine takes several days to work, or you might have caught a separate strain of flu.

If you do have a negative reaction, you should let your doctor know. It's part of post-release surveillance to ensure the safety of a vaccine. If you're just a little sick for a day or two after the vaccine, he/she may say it's no big deal, but if it's a "significant" reaction (If you get too ill to work, visit a clinic/ER etc. etc.), you should have him/her file a report to the manufacturer.

[Maz3Dan]

Im enjoying spectating on this.

But I too have questions and wonder about vacinating babies. I don't know all that much about it but at the same time I dont know what is right and what is wrong. Everyone medical or not has a different opinion on it.

Maybe vaccines are not linked to autism, but could they be linked to other things? No doctor or medical professional knows all, nor would they want to admit that there could be side effects that are still unknown.

What about SIDS? It seems as though no one has an answer to that either. That scares me.

I dont have kids yet but I will in the next year or 2 and these are things I think about. I have friends who have vaccinated, and also not vaccinated.

As a new mother, these are things that you stress about. Especially the first time around since you dont know what to expect.

Of the things you've written, i believe the only thing i can answer with confidence is the SIDS question. From what i've read about SIDS is that it happens very near to birth, before many (if any) of the vaccinations. The rest i'm not versed in, though i've heard the autism arguement was debunked years ago.

[fruitloops]

The only girl who got vaccinated for h1n1 in my high school class got really sick, missed a week or two of classes, and so did her whole family.

[fruitloops]

I'll admit I've done some literal and figurative "shake my head" moments at a couple of the initial posts here. But it's not about making fun of people who are ignorant of the facts and don't trust experts in the matters - it's about trying to correct those perceptions by providing actual facts (with references where necessary). Perhaps there is 0% chance of those perceptions changing, but if the alternative is not to provide any counterpoint to "vaccines are useless" posts then you eventually end up with a legion of Jenny McCarthys on TV spouting ignorance as scientific fact.

It's funny how you mock the people who have different opinions, then follow up with saying you're not trying to? Explain maybe?

[slam525i]

Im enjoying spectating on this.

But I too have questions and wonder about vacinating babies. I don't know all that much about it but at the same time I dont know what is right and what is wrong. Everyone medical or not has a different opinion on it.

Maybe vaccines are not linked to autism, but could they be linked to other things? No doctor or medical professional knows all, nor would they want to admit that there could be side effects that are still unknown.

What about SIDS? It seems as though no one has an answer to that either. That scares me.

I dont have kids yet but I will in the next year or 2 and these are things I think about. I have friends who have vaccinated, and also not vaccinated.

As a new mother, these are things that you stress about. Especially the first time around since you dont know what to expect.

Could vaccines be linked to other things? It's possible. The vaccine adverse event reporting system to designed to find links between vaccination and adverse side effects, but there isn't any major side effect that is even remotely common. If there are links to other major side effects that haven't been found, it's precisely because they're so rare that they haven't been found.

As for SIDS, yeah, SIDS scares me too. It's called Sudden infant death syndrome precisely because the cause isn't known. I've never seen anything that links SIDS with any vaccine. The problem is SIDS occurs in babies, and babies get vaccines regularly. So, by association, vaccines end up getting looked at as it was only "days/weeks/months" after getting a vaccine if SIDS happens. It's "temporal correlation" only, and there's no evidence for it. (As a slightly ridiculous example, you could say that SIDS is caused by diapers. Babies wear diapers. Babies have SIDS. Almost all babies who suffered SIDS were wearing a diaper at the time. etc. etc.)

As a biologist, I don't worry about vaccines, because the risks are so low, but the consequences are so big. I do worry about rates of birth defects and that sort of thing, and it scares the crap out of me. (Hey, 1% risk of anything is no big deal unless it's 1% on someone you care about!)

[slam525i]

Of the things you've written, i believe the only thing i can answer with confidence is the SIDS question. From what i've read about SIDS is that it happens very near to birth, before many (if any) of the vaccinations. The rest i'm not versed in, though i've heard the autism arguement was debunked years ago.

The autism and MMR vaccine thing got debunked years ago. It turned out the guy who wrote it did bad science on purpose (bad math really), and was getting paid on the side. The other authors retracted their names from the paper. Other papers were retracted by different journals. He was struck off by the UK's medical board (i.e. lost his license). Channel 4 and Sunday Times (in the UK) did a whole big expose on it. It was a right mess. God knows how many people he killed with his bullshit.

You can read all about this ******* here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Wakefield
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Wakefield)

[Fobio]

It's funny how you mock the people who have different opinions, then follow up with saying you're not trying to? Explain maybe?

We're on pg 4 and finally someone picks it up! lol

Let's see...a mod pulled one post out of a supposedly joke thread to make a new thread out of it with the title "Rants about vaccines"...then call it open discussion. If I ever saw a reverse troll done with mod powers...

[fruitloops]

We're on pg 4 and finally someone picks it up! lol

Let's see...a mod pulled one post out of a supposedly joke thread to make a new thread out of it with the title "Rants about vaccines"...then call it open discussion. If I ever saw a reverse troll done with mod powers...

Titles it "rants about vaccines" and makes my post the first one, don't forget about that.

[Maz3Dan]

The autism and MMR vaccine thing got debunked years ago. It turned out the guy who wrote it did bad science on purpose (bad math really), and was getting paid on the side. The other authors retracted their names from the paper. Other papers were retracted by different journals. He was struck off by the UK's medical board (i.e. lost his license). Channel 4 and Sunday Times (in the UK) did a whole big expose on it. It was a right mess. God knows how many people he killed with his bullshit.

You can read all about this ******* here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Wakefield
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Wakefield)


That's good info. I had thought I had heard about it being debunked. The problem is that not enough of the anti crowd does research. That's why I always enjoy getting the bits of info, like the one you just posted, allows more food for thought and it educates.

[Aitch]

It's funny how you mock the people who have different opinions, then follow up with saying you're not trying to? Explain maybe?


We're on pg 4 and finally someone picks it up! lol

Let's see...a mod pulled one post out of a supposedly joke thread to make a new thread out of it with the title "Rants about vaccines"...then call it open discussion. If I ever saw a reverse troll done with mod powers...


Titles it "rants about vaccines" and makes my post the first one, don't forget about that.

You know what, to show you guys I'm not above responding to criticism, I've made my original post the first one in this thread and changed the thread title. As I said yesterday in the LOL thread, I was pretty much in complete disagreement with fruitloops' original posts and literally shaking my head at them. So perhaps the way I started this thread left a little to be desired.

At the same time, the way I usually debate stuff like this where someone posts "opinions" or worse, "facts" which are categorically false, is to rebut with actual facts and some sarcasm mixed in. I used sarcasm in two places to highlight what I felt were glaring problems with the basis of your opinions:

1) believing an H1N1 vaccine was unnecessary based on false facts about the death rate (and subsequently based on one piece of anecdotal evidence in your high school, which doesn't equate with statistics based on the whole population)
2) believing that nurses in hospitals shouldn't be vaccinated when they are the ones who benefit most from it

Perhaps that sarcasm is too far into making fun of someone for their opinions. I'll do my best to refrain from that going forward in this thread. At the same time I'd genuinely be interested to hear counter-arguments to the points I posted. I did read the blog posts you linked, and it seems like he has some actual understanding of reasons for avoiding a particular vaccine (Hep B). But they don't address the issues I raised with your original posts.

[Kiewan]

slam525i
Thanks. Very helpful info.

[r4mi5awi]

*Always refer to your doctor when seeking medical advice

I will not post my personal opinion. My only aim is to facilitate and guide to available resources regarding the Influenza vaccine.

Influenza Vaccine Information ONLY

World Health Organization (WHO) Influenza Fact sheet: http://www.who.int/topics/influenza/en/

Centers for Disease Control (CDC) Influenza Vaccine FAQs: http://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/qa/preventingflu.htm

Health Canada Influenza: http://www.healthycanadians.gc.ca/health-sante/disease-maladie/flu-grippe-eng.php

Canadian Guidelines & Vaccine Schedule (All Provinces)

(Adults & High-Risk): http://www.phac-aspc.gc.ca/im/ptimprog-progimpt/table-3-eng.php

Adults - It is recommended to receive the Influenza vaccine (IFV) every year; Tetanus vaccine (Tdap/TD) once every 10 years; >65 years of age: IFV once per year and Pneumococcus vaccine (PCV)/Varicella Zoster virus (VZV) at least once; Health care workers are advised to take IFV as well as High-Risk group or adults with contacts to children (teachers, day-care, etc.) (*this last part is strictly my personal professional opinion)

High-Risk - You are considered high-risk if you are Immunocompromised (AIDS, autoimmune) or suffer from chronic disease (Diabetes, CVD, COPD, etc.)

Infants and Children: http://www.phac-aspc.gc.ca/im/ptimprog-progimpt/table-1-eng.php

Influenza vaccine is recommended from >6 months to 8 years of age

General Practice Guidelines (GPC) are to recommend annual IFV to patients who are <5-8 or >65 years of age. The general population (notwithstanding any comorbidities or falling into high-risk category) will generally incur no relative harm from refusing annual Influenza vaccination due to robust immune system. *use your discretion

General/Immediate side-effects: brief relative pain or discomfort from injection; redness/swelling/tenderness/soreness at injection site; bruising at injection site; temporary Flu-like Illness (fever, malaise, Joint and muscle ache, cough, runny nose etc.); if >2 weeks or if fever is greater than 38 C/100.4 F seek medical attention. Risk of systemic allergic reaction or severe-side effect is roughly 0.3-1% (vaccine type dependent)

[fruitloops]

Aitch, maybe you misunderstood me? I said " Im thinking of going into nursing now, which sucks" - which, when translated, means "I have to get a bunch of shots now, so thats going to suck.

My main point in this, is that cases in which infants get extremely sick, or even die DO HAPPEN!, I just want you all to think about that. Babies do die, from vaccines. And no, i was not saying that the girl in my class and her family getting sick meant everyone who got the shot got sick, i was simply stating an interesting tidbit. I can get you pictures of the papers, from the doctors, of my cousins records, who got sick at his first shots, and then shortly after his second dose of shots, almost died. A few hours after his shots, he was not getting enough oxygen, and by the time the paramedics got to the house, my aunt was holding him over the sink and he was puking blood into the sink and eventually, not breathing. The doctor then wrote and told them after a 5 day stay in NICU that they would stop with the vaccinations.

My thought is that parents should not be handing over their kids blindly, for the doctor just to pump them with all kinds of stuff. Do your research, know the risks, go from there, make informed decisions. I may have come off really anti-vaccine at first, but i was more aiming for a vaccine-wary approach. I apologize.

With regards to the Wakefield thing, The doctor that originally came out with the idea that Sugar, not fats, is what causes people to get fat, lost his license, got fired, everything he wrote got refuted, etc. Turns out, He's right! No one would've ever guessed that he was right back then. Don't blow off Wakefields ideas immediately.

[fruitloops]

One thing to add: My cousin works in a hospital in B.C., and there is a good majority of the nurses there who choose to not take the flu shot. NURSES! Who won't take a flu shot! They would rather wear masks for september to march than get the flu shot. That means something to me, and they obviously have seen first-hand things that make them not want to take the shot.

[midnightfxgt]

Can you provide some statistics on how many babies these vaccines have killed? Also on how many babies are vaccinated?

if I had a child, and it was a .0000001% fatality rate due to a vaccine, I would accept those risks. To tell people that they should investigate vaccines is tough, as there is so much stupid, opinion based things online with false opinion stated as fact.

[midnightfxgt]

One thing to add: My cousin works in a hospital in B.C., and there is a good majority of the nurses there who choose to not take the flu shot. NURSES! Who won't take a flu shot! They would rather wear masks for september to march than get the flu shot. That means something to me, and they obviously have seen first-hand things that make them not want to take the shot.

i have nurse friends in Ontario, and they get the flu shot. NURSES! Who get the flu shot!!!! Lol

[midnightfxgt]

The doctor that originally came out with the idea that Sugar, not fats, is what causes people to get fat, lost his license, got fired, everything he wrote got refuted, etc. Turns out, He's right! No one would've ever guessed that he was right back then. Don't blow off Wakefields ideas immediately.

What doctor was this?

[Jenuine]

One thing to add: My cousin works in a hospital in B.C., and there is a good majority of the nurses there who choose to not take the flu shot. NURSES! Who won't take a flu shot! They would rather wear masks for september to march than get the flu shot. That means something to me, and they obviously have seen first-hand things that make them not want to take the shot.

My sister is a nurse in Toronto and she gets the flu shot every year. Has been getting it since she was in university and nothing bad has ever happened, nor has she ever witnessed anything bad happen from the flu shot. She would rather get a shot than potentially catch the flu from hundreds of patients that she comes into contact with.

[Maz3Dan]

What doctor was this?



Dr. Acula

[r4mi5awi]

One thing to add: My cousin works in a hospital in B.C., and there is a good majority of the nurses there who choose to not take the flu shot. NURSES! Who won't take a flu shot! They would rather wear masks for september to march than get the flu shot. That means something to me, and they obviously have seen first-hand things that make them not want to take the shot.

I didn't take the flu shot this year. There are many health care workers who, to put it bluntly, are too preoccupied to get inoculated despite internal reminders for free vaccinations from the health clinic. With that being said, I think your comment may be with false predisposition. There's a difference between refusing the flu shot and preferring not to have it. The former insinuates strong apprehension and rejection which I doubt is the case and is nothing to derive conclusions from. They are choosing not to most likely to personal preference which is fine :)

[m_bisson]

i have nurse friends in Ontario, and they get the flu shot. NURSES! Who get the flu shot!!!! Lol

My ex is a nurse in the ICU at hospital in kitchener. She's not allowed to work unless she's up to date with her shots. She took a spare shift in Stratford and had to fill out a stack of paperwork before her shift, proving she got the flu shot.

If you're not interested in getting vaccinated, stay away from health care.

[slam525i]

Dr. Acula

LOL. I actually googled it because I'm an idiot.

(It's not a real name. "Dracula".)

BTW, I work in a hospital. I'm required to be vaccinated, and if I refuse to, I have to provide a reason. I don't know what the response would be if the reason was "I don't think it works" or "I'm worried about side effects" (They'll provide a separate, special vaccine if it's an allergy to eggs. The idea is that if you provide a reason, it's a valid medical "contraindication".)

[rajin929]

curious if schools will admit a child who has not had all immunizations

[Nooby31]

One thing to add: My cousin works in a hospital in B.C., and there is a good majority of the nurses there who choose to not take the flu shot. NURSES! Who won't take a flu shot! They would rather wear masks for september to march than get the flu shot. That means something to me, and they obviously have seen first-hand things that make them not want to take the shot.

The flu shot gives you a dose of the flu so your body recognizes what to fight off in the future. I really hope these nurses are allergic to eggs because I highly doubt they go around in a mask the whole day. In college currently I have to have all my flu shots + other shots to even get a foot into the door of a health care facility.

The nurses need to get flu shots to protect themselves but more impotently they need it to protect the people that care for because most of the time they are the ones who have a compromised immune system.

[Maz3Dan]

LOL. I actually googled it because I'm an idiot.

(It's not a real name. "Dracula".)

BTW, I work in a hospital. I'm required to be vaccinated, and if I refuse to, I have to provide a reason. I don't know what the response would be if the reason was "I don't think it works" or "I'm worried about side effects" (They'll provide a separate, special vaccine if it's an allergy to eggs. The idea is that if you provide a reason, it's a valid medical "contraindication".)

I was waiting for someone to pick up on that! I was LOLing as I typed it out. I figured it would be a nice way to ease some of the tension in this thread.

I had a feeling you were in the medical field in some way. Two of my ex`s are nurses in a hospital, I know it was mandatory. It makes sense, you don`t want to get sick, or contaminate someone who`s immune system may already be on the fritz.

[FoXy]

curious if schools will admit a child who has not had all immunizations

Yepp, they will take a kid with no vaccinations... BUT there is a butt load of paper work they have to fill out. A friend of mine refuses to vaccinate her kids.

[rajin929]

Yepp, they will take a kid with no vaccinations... BUT there is a butt load of paper work they have to fill out. A friend of mine refuses to vaccinate her kids.

thanks! something I was curious about.

My son is up-to-date on his vaccinations, was never really a topic of discussion between my wife and I.
Learning about ancient civilizations in grade school (Mayans, Egyptians, etc) I think people only lived until their 20's
With modern medicine people today are living up to 5 times longer.

[CloudPump]

thanks! something I was curious about.

My son is up-to-date on his vaccinations, was never really a topic of discussion between my wife and I.
Learning about ancient civilizations in grade school (Mayans, Egyptians, etc) I think people only lived until their 20's
With modern medicine people today are living up to 5 times longer.

No.

This is a common misconception. The average life expectancy of members of ancient civilizations was drastically lower than it is today, not because people dropped dead in their 20's but because of staggeringly higher infant mortality rates that dragged down the average life expectancy (a large portion of this can be attributed to disease that was not combated by vaccines). A person who survived their youth was likely to live well into their 60's.

-Geoff

[rajin929]

thanks for clarifying geoff.

[m_bisson]

http://www.iflscience.com/health-and-medicine/one-map-sums-damage-caused-anti-vaccination-movement

[roachkillah]

like someone else stated, i got the flu shot once, and i swear i never been sicker, it felt like i had the flew or a cold on a monthly basis.
i heard a pediatrician on the radio a few years ago, and he spoke about following the guide on this site.
http://www.twoandtalking.com/vaccineSchedule.html

[midnightfxgt]

This will be my first year getting the flu shot. Mostly due to the newborn in the house.

[Fobio]

One Map Sums Up The Damage Caused By The Anti-Vaccination Movement (http://www.iflscience.com/health-and-medicine/one-map-sums-damage-caused-anti-vaccination-movement)

http://www.iflscience.com/sites/www.iflscience.com/files/styles/ifls_large/public/blog/%5Bnid%5D/Screen%20Shot%202014-10-24%20at%207.15.04%20AM.jpg

Of note:


Update (10/24/2014): CFR's map has now been updated to document attacks on health care workers, which have been increasing in recent years. These attacks are indicated on the map with red triangles. Additionally, these attacks correlate with increased instance of disease, including a polio outbreak in Afghanistan. Socio-economic trends can also be seen, as incedence of measles and whooping cough are increasing in wealthier areas like the US and UK, while poorer areas indicate lacking adequate supplies and give health officials a clear idea of where efforts need to be increased.

[Aitch]

like someone else stated, i got the flu shot once, and i swear i never been sicker, it felt like i had the flew or a cold on a monthly basis.

I know a few people who have had this experience (and posted here), but unfortunately that's anecdotal, not a scientific observation on the vaccine's effectiveness. For example, see a report showing that flu-related absenteeism declined when flu shots were mandated for health workers (http://www.medpagetoday.com/MeetingCoverage/IDWeek/42074):


At sites where vaccination was mandated for healthcare professionals, the mean vaccination rate was 88.3%, compared with just 58.5% at facilities where vaccination was not mandated (P<0.0001). And at the mandatory sites, there was a lower average flu-related sick day ratio (0.55 days versus 0.92 days, P=0.02).



i heard a pediatrician on the radio a few years ago, and he spoke about following the guide on this site.
http://www.twoandtalking.com/vaccineSchedule.html
@roachkillah (http://www.torontomazda3.ca/forum/member.php?u=17657) I'm not trying to crap on your post. But first line of that site's homepage states "This website does not have any intention to provide specific medical or legal advice, but rather to provide users with information to better understand their health, their child's health,....."

If they're not providing specific medical advice, what type of information can they possibly provide me in regards to making medical decisions about my child's health? By definition, information about my kid's health is medical.

[roachkillah]

Aitch point well taken on site not providing specific medical advice, but that pediatrician sure sounded convincing and well informed.

[Aitch]

@Aitch (http://www.torontomazda3.ca/forum/member.php?u=2301) point well taken on site not providing specific medical advice, but that pediatrician sure sounded convincing and well informed.

They often do. Jenny McCarthy sounded convincing when she stated her son's autism was caused by vaccines but she never backed it up with any evidence (in fact the evidence all contradicted her) :)

[slam525i]

To be perfectly frank about it, I'm always a little apprehensive about advice from health care professionals. I know, it sounds crazy, but it's the truth. In general, medical professionals know everything, but only to a certain amount of depth. Scientific researchers know only one subject, but they (we, since I am one) know it very very well.

To make an analogy, well, since we're all car people... Your mechanic knows how to repair the HVAC, suspension, engine mechanicals, reflash your ECU, etc. etc. But the on the other hand, you have the professional engine engineer, or the professional suspension designer. The latter group does nothing but the one specialty they know; the engine designer doesn't know how many BTU he should be designing the HVAC to handle, and the suspension engineer doesn't know whether the exhaust valves should be 0.5mm bigger.

When a non-vaccine-specialist doctor gives advice on vaccines, I get worried. They may understand the general concepts of something and derive their recommendations on their limited understanding, which may turn out to be incorrect because they don't know the details. For example, some doctors give the advice that vaccines should be taken separately over time (rather than in combination) because it will deplete the number of cells that can "learn" the vaccine. It makes superficial sense, until the researchers demonstrate by calculation that it would take literally millions of vaccines simultaneously to cause cell depletion.

Taking advice from these doctors is like increasing the camber on your suspension because it would make the car more stable during lateral G-load. It makes superficial sense until you realize the default camber specified by the suspension engineer had already taken that into account after having already done an enormous amount of math and testing to optimize the camber. Running a more negative camber results in the car riding on the insides of the tires, and actually reducing lateral grip. The trade-offs in vaccines (adverse side-effects) have already been very well studied and changing the vaccine schedule actually increases the health risk as you're trading the extremely minor risk of side effects (that have already been accounted for) for the much larger risk of childhood infections.

[Aitch]

Solution: find a doctor whose opinion you trust. Or read the actual literature yourself.

[Aitch]

I know Jimmy doesn't know the finer detail of advanced engine design. But he knows how to repair 99% of the problems he encounters, and would seek specialized advice for something he didn't. I trust him like my doctor, who is pretty well read on common health issues.