Cold Start issues - thoughts/options ?

[S.F.W.]

Last winter and this winter I am having significant cold start issues with my MS3. I put in a new OEM battery last winter, and it was fine for the winter, but now am having issues again.

My car is parked outside day/night, and most days does not get driven more than 3-5km at the start and end of the day(to and from the subway station).

Last week after sitting a day outside in the -18 cold I got back to the subway and t would not crank/start. Called roadside had the car boosted, drove it for 45 minutes and parked it.
Next few days no start problems.

This morning, went out to start the car, it turned over, then hesitated and died, tried it again same situation.

I do have a Ctek Multi US 4.3, but using it where I am living now is next to impossible as I don't have a plug outside.

So I am looking for feedback and suggestions.

Is it time to say f'k it and buy a new battery ? If so which one ? Kirkland 24F ? MotoMaster Eliminator Ultra Flat Plate AGM ? MotoMaster Eliminator Ultra XD Pure Lead AGM Battery ?

By a battery booster ?

By a few really long extension cords and try the Ctek ?

[gta_driver]

The original stock battery died after 4 years? Seems short. Nonetheless, you could be having a battery issue, or possibly some corrosion / oxidation on the wires. When you boost it, there's more current from the running car and it goes through.

First, clean off / sand (lightly) battery terminals, and inside of the clamps. See if it improves. Next, there might be some oxidation on the starter cable, that's another spot i'd look at.

Does it crank slowly, or does it crank fast once or twice then stops?

edit: missed the part about short trips.

[Mr Wilson]

Running Rotella right now?

[S.F.W.]

Running Rotella right now?
yes. I know it's heavy for the winter, was going to go with something lighter, but having been letting the car warm before driving.

[SomeGuy]

Running Rotella right now?

Swap to a 5w30 rather than 5w40 (I think that's where Mr Wilson is going with that).
Get a block heater.
Get a battery blanket.
Drive a little further.
Park in a garage.

Also for really cold starting before you turn the vehicle off, shut off everything...headlights, heater, heated seats, stereo, etc. as this will minimize draw at startup. Then when you turn it on, don't crank right away, turn the vehicle to "ON", let it sit for a few seconds, then clutch in and crank as this will let all the inrush current for things like the fuel pump, etc be done so there's more left for the starter.

Fact is if it's cold and the car sits and you only do a short trip so it doesn't get fully warmed up and the battery having a chance to charge back up, this is going to happen.

[Mr Wilson]

To be honest I'm not sure if the difference between Rotella and a '30' is large or not.

Edit: SomeGuy beat me to it.

[aZuMi]

Do you have a dashcam with motion sensor?

One of my issues with the WRX is that I would leave the dashcam in motion sensor mode and after a few days of not starting the car - the battery would have a hard time starting. I consciously turning off the dashcam or unplugging it helps.

[S.F.W.]

Swap to a 5w30 rather than 5w40 (I think that's where Mr Wilson is going with that).
Get a block heater.
Get a battery blanket.
Drive a little further.
Park in a garage.

Also for really cold starting before you turn the vehicle off, shut off everything...headlights, heater, heated seats, stereo, etc. as this will minimize draw at startup. Then when you turn it on, don't crank right away, turn the vehicle to "ON", let it sit for a few seconds, then clutch in and crank as this will let all the inrush current for things like the fuel pump, etc be done so there's more left for the starter.

Fact is if it's cold and the car sits and you only do a short trip so it doesn't get fully warmed up and the battery having a chance to charge back up, this is going to happen.

The block heater and battery blanket both pose similar problems, lack of access to an outdoor plug. Parking in a garage also isn't feasible as my current residence does not have one.
I will likely be moving late summer fall time frame, and hopefully I will have either a garage or outdoor plug.
Driving a little further is doable..question is how much ? 15 minutes ? 30 minutes ?

[S.F.W.]

Do you have a dashcam with motion sensor?

One of my issues with the WRX is that I would leave the dashcam in motion sensor mode and after a few days of not starting the car - the battery would have a hard time starting. I consciously turning off the dashcam or unplugging it helps.
I do have a dashcam with motion sensor, but it has a low voltage shut off.

[SomeGuy]

The block heater and battery blanket both pose similar problems, lack of access to an outdoor plug. Parking in a garage also isn't feasible as my current residence does not have one.
I will likely be moving late summer fall time frame, and hopefully I will have either a garage or outdoor plug.
Driving a little further is doable..question is how much ? 15 minutes ? 30 minutes ?

Until the vehicle is fully warmed up. Sub 5 minute drive will not get you all the way up to temp. Just use your AP and monitor coolant temp until it's up above 150-160ish or so (not that that's fully warmed up, but close enough).

Also if you regularly have issues and want peace of mind, you can always get one of those battery booster packs that you can bring inside and charge and then take out in the morning to give it a little boost.

Oh, parking in a spot with sun in the morning can also help a bit.


I do have a dashcam with motion sensor, but it has a low voltage shut off.

Removing anything with parasitic draw will help.

[S.F.W.]

SomeGuy - do you think putting in a newer/better battery would help ?

[SomeGuy]

SomeGuy - do you think putting in a newer/better battery would help ?

It's entirely possible but if you are draining the battery because of not running it long enough, a better battery is just going to delay the problem.

Also when I lived up north I never had issues with the OEM battery starting my MZ3 in even colder weather. My MS3 has never had starting issues up north either when I'm home to visit and it could sit for several days without being driven and it's still on the original battery.

[zzz3]

What's your voltage cut off? If you, or anyone for that matter, has a dashcam with parking mode engaged, it's only a matter of time before you will need a deep cycle battery such as an odyssey (a shorter commute will accelerate this need).

The other solution is to disable parking mode and recharge your battery with the ctek tender. However, that defeats one of the primary purposes of a fully featured dashcam like blackvue, itronics etc that feature this capability.

For further reading about dashcam parking mode discharge devices and their limitations:
https://dashcamtalk.com/battery-discharge-prevention/

[m_bisson]

SomeGuy - do you think putting in a newer/better battery would help ?

No. The battery is a symptom, not the cause. It's probably just the short trips. Take it for a spin once or twice a week, if you can't lengthen your daily commute.

[aZuMi]

I do have a dashcam with motion sensor, but it has a low voltage shut off.

Mine has a low voltage shut off too - but there were a few times (2-3 times!) when it drained the battery (WRX - and it's less than a year old). I had to jumpstart it with my Mazda just to get it running.

Once I start consciously shutting off the dash cam, I also made sure the WRX runs at least half an hour during the weekends since it's mainly in the garage during winter. That pretty much solved the issue for me.

[S.F.W.]

Mine has a low voltage shut off too - but there were a few times (2-3 times!) when it drained the battery (WRX - and it's less than a year old). I had to jumpstart it with my Mazda just to get it running.

Once I start consciously shutting off the dash cam, I also made sure the WRX runs at least half an hour during the weekends since it's mainly in the garage during winter. That pretty much solved the issue for me.

I run the car on the weekends, usually both Saturday and Sunday it gets 30-45 minutes each day. That said, it seems like I will need to eventually go with zzz3's line of thinking, a deep cycle battery, and a voltage cut off mechanism.

[loki]

I had issues with my car last year. Actually had to have it towed to Street Performance thinking it had to do with the PJB

Jimmy was saying he has noticed with the speed3's that the alternator really only charges the battery properly when the car is under load. Apparently fack_dude was having similar issues with his car. Jimmy checked my battery, which he had to charge, and checked everything else and it was all fine...

The short trips definitely is not helping. I was doing alot of short trips...

When I got back from vancouver, car would not start. Couldn't even turn on the radio. Had it jumped and it's been fine.

Even my headlight has started working again

[Flagrum_3]

I run the car on the weekends, usually both Saturday and Sunday it gets 30-45 minutes each day. That said, it seems like I will need to eventually go with zzz3's line of thinking, a deep cycle battery, and a voltage cut off mechanism.

Ami, just get a quality deep cycle battery and forget gadgets. The issue is you don't drive enough and the battery does not have the time to recharge fully, this is one major plus of the Deep Cycle batteries. Another thing is to be sure to shut everything off before you shut her down, ensuring no nonessentials will be drawing from the battery when you go to start her up. I bought the Motomaster Eliminator Ultra flat plate AGM last year and I couldn't be happier. A little more costly, not expensive as an Optima but comes with an awesome warranty also.

_3

[stock3]

The very heavy oil (just because it's rated 5wXX doesn't mean they're all the same) coupled with very short trips, that don't give enough time to re-charge the battery are your primary causes of this.

OP may think that rotella is not that much thicker, but it truly is. Looking at the spec sheets, the cold cranking viscosity is close to TWICE of a 5w20 oil. That is not a small difference in viscosity for a weak battery.

What I would do is change the oil to 5w20 (use Rptella in the summer if you want) and put the battery on a charger once or twice a month.

[S.F.W.]

The very heavy oil (just because it's rated 5wXX doesn't mean they're all the same) coupled with very short trips, that don't give enough time to re-charge the battery are your primary causes of this.

OP may think that rotella is not that much thicker, but it truly is. Looking at the spec sheets, the cold cranking viscosity is close to TWICE of a 5w20 oil. That is not a small difference in viscosity for a weak battery.

What I would do is change the oil to 5w20 (use Rptella in the summer if you want) and put the battery on a charger once or twice a month.

Certainly worth pondering, I would maybe go to a 5W30, not a 20. Speed3 spec is 5W30.

[Noisy Crow]

Are you running synthetic oil? It is much better at not turning into goo at colder temperatures.

[Flagrum_3]

Certainly worth pondering, I would maybe go to a 5W30, not a 20. Speed3 spec is 5W30.

Why don't you guys try a 0W for winter (full synthetic)? Wondering does anyone here run the GC 0w-30 in their Speeds and if so how they have found it? Apparently it runs more like a 40 till it shears down a bit.


_3

[Kiyomi]

deep cycle battery with high cca. also, you have a manual, just push the car and bump start it. best benefit of a manual. :D

[Cab0oze]

Think everythings been covered, but man, you really need to drive your car more. Short trips like that just kill it, especially in the winter... as you have found out.

[Jackal]

I'd go with aZuMi on this one. It may be the dashcam. I had this happen to mine even though I had a low voltage shut off.
So I'd charge it fully with your ctek when you can get access, unplug your dashcam and leave unplugged for a week and see if this solves it. A bit of troubleshooting before you spend any money.

[shift8]

In cold weather the dashcam definitely made starts harder on my MS3.

Car at one point was also hesitating to turn over at all. Turned out to be corrosion on the starter terminals.

[sube]

Short trips killing the battery are only part of the equation, the car is not reaching full operating temperature on such short trips, so you should consider changing the oil more often because of condensation emulsifying the oil, as well you are drastically shortening the life of the exhaust, moisture accumulates in the exhaust then doesn't get burnt off because of short trips, result exhaust and muffler rot from the inside out.

Pat.

[S.F.W.]

Short trips killing the battery are only part of the equation, the car is not reaching full operating temperature on such short trips, so you should consider changing the oil more often because of condensation emulsifying the oil, as well you are drastically shortening the life of the exhaust, moisture accumulates in the exhaust then doesn't get burnt off because of short trips, result exhaust and muffler rot from the inside out.

Pat.

I change the oil at 5k, and run a catch can.

[sube]

I change the oil at 5k, and run a catch can.
That all helps, still it would be even better to increase your daily commute so the car reaches proper operating temps, plus I am sure it would also alleviate your starting issues. Maybe leave home a little earlier and give the car a decent run.

Pat.

[bubba1983]

stick to basics, get your battery tested after a good few days of run time on the weekend, so it has a good state of charge to test off, check your charging system, voltage drops, etc get a good baseline, then go from there...

[ecmirand]

Instead of creating another thread, my experience this past long weekend fits in here. Cold days and nights going -20C or lower. Clutch was at first "sticky" ie after releasing my foot after disengaging, the clutch pedal doesn't return its original position right away. After driving for 30 mins, it's back to how it was.

Door sensor was acting up too. While parked with all doors closed and locked, sensor says door is still open and my interior lights are on. Then went away. Started driving and the sensor would come back on and the lights would turn back on again. Freaked out my passengers lol. I said to not worry because this was only happening today.

Just want to share how COLD it was this weekend. And did a carwash to get rid of all that salt!

[Noobster12]

My clutch was also doing the same... But whenever its in gear it's very stiff.. And wen the car is warmed up it's back to normal...

[Raxor]

I replaced my battery on my 2010 MZ3 about a month ago. Before it would have issues starting in the cold on the stock battery. Now with the new battery (Kirkland 24F) i have 0 issues starting the car up even with the cold weather this past week.

-Car is parked outside day/night.
-Usually drive minimum 10kms a day
-No dashcam or other power leaching sources

[ecmirand]

Haven't replaced my 2012 MZ3 battery yet since I bought it used a year ago but I'm assuming it's stock lol. Maybe it's the battery as you say. I have a dashcam and recently it started saying "system is stopping to protect car battery...system is stopping" whenever I start my car. Still works and that line became my regular routine and doesn't annoy me anymore lol

[Noobster12]

What about the clutch and gear problem? Im assuming the tranny oil isn't good...? :S

[ecmirand]

Yea the gears were a bit stiff as you said but after warming up and driving, it was okay. Maybe I should check the oil then lol. But in this cold weather, I get lazy checking my car fluids and won't do anything until spring. They were fine though last summer lol.

[Noobster12]

Its only the really cold days that these stuff happens to my car.. Maybe its the type of trany oil that mazda dealerships that sucks?

[ecmirand]

I don't know lol. I'll treat it as a one time thing and hopefully it doesn't happen.

[S.F.W.]

My issue is related to my dash cam. If I turn it off the dash can at night, and when I park at the subway, the car starts fine. If I leave the dash can on, the battery drains and needs to be boosted.
At some point, I need to invest in a deep cycle battery.

[Flagrum_3]

Its only the really cold days that these stuff happens to my car.. Maybe its the type of trany oil that mazda dealerships that sucks?

You could always try switching to synthetic gear oil to alleviate the stiffness to a certain degree. I switched to Redline several years back and have no shifter stiffness issues after letting the vehicle warm up for approx. 3 minutes.

As far as the clutch goes, not much you can do as it's a hydraulic clutch. The fluid is shared with the brake system. Brake fluid will thicken also with this type of cold but it should warm up quickly in most cases.

_3

[Canadianbacon]

Same door open warning light last morning didn't go off, had to open/close door twice. Using dashcam and Subwoofer hooked up no issues at all. Im using a motomaster battery from crappytire for little over $100 its perfect dashcam turns off if battery below 50%
http://youtu.be/dJ0A-EQcTZw

[Cab0oze]

You could always try switching to synthetic gear oil to alleviate the stiffness to a certain degree. I switched to Redline several years back and have no shifter stiffness issues after letting the vehicle warm up for approx. 3 minutes.

As far as the clutch goes, not much you can do as it's a hydraulic clutch. The fluid is shared with the brake system. Brake fluid will thicken also with this type of cold but it should warm up quickly in most cases.

_3
I thought I remembered reading (mulitple times) that redline was actually worse than the stock ford(?) fluid in terms of cold performance?


Instead of creating another thread, my experience this past long weekend fits in here. Cold days and nights going -20C or lower. Clutch was at first "sticky" ie after releasing my foot after disengaging, the clutch pedal doesn't return its original position right away. After driving for 30 mins, it's back to how it was.

Door sensor was acting up too. While parked with all doors closed and locked, sensor says door is still open and my interior lights are on. Then went away. Started driving and the sensor would come back on and the lights would turn back on again. Freaked out my passengers lol. I said to not worry because this was only happening today.

Just want to share how COLD it was this weekend. And did a carwash to get rid of all that salt!
Washing your car can cause the door sensor problem... water gets places it shouldnt and then freezes.

[Flagrum_3]

I thought I remembered reading (mulitple times) that redline was actually worse than the stock ford(?) fluid in terms of cold performance?



I don't know how that can be! In my case it's like night and day compared to the OEM oil that was in there.

Pour point is -45C


_3

[gta_driver]

Isn't gearbox oil already synthetic? I'm pretty sure it is.

Also, a certain amount of stiffness is normal, i've had that with every manual car I've owned. Even automatics take longer to shift when temps drop low in most cars I had.

One just have to drive carefully at first, that's all.

[SomeGuy]

Fluid's will barely help transmission/clutch feel in the cold...cold is cold. The vehicle just needs to warm up.

[Flagrum_3]

Isn't gearbox oil already synthetic? I'm pretty sure it is.

Also, a certain amount of stiffness is normal, i've had that with every manual car I've owned. Even automatics take longer to shift when temps drop low in most cars I had.

One just have to drive carefully at first, that's all.

I'm not sure what the oem gear oil is, but I would not assume it's synthetic. Even if it were there are differences to synthetic oils depending on brand and make-up. You have so called semi-syns and full syns. The full syns being obviously the better choice for many reasons.


Fluid's will barely help transmission/clutch feel in the cold...cold is cold. The vehicle just needs to warm up.

That's a pretty general statement! I just finished stating "from experience", synthetic makes a difference. Seriously, How could it not?
It will not thicken like a conventional oil, therefore it will flow basically the same at -30C as it would at 2C, whereas a conventional oil will be literally like molasses at -30C. This has been tested and proven many times over....therefore it is not a myth and it will and does make a difference.

_3

[Squisher]

I don't know much about the 3 gearbox specifically but in general changing oils can certainly affect how a gearbox performs in different environments.

[SomeGuy]

I'm not sure what the oem gear oil is, but I would not assume it's synthetic. Even if it were there are differences to synthetic oils depending on brand and make-up. You have so called semi-syns and full syns. The full syns being obviously the better choice for many reasons.



That's a pretty general statement! I just finished stating "from experience", synthetic makes a difference. Seriously, How could it not?
It will not thicken like a conventional oil, therefore it will flow basically the same at -30C as it would at 2C, whereas a conventional oil will be literally like molasses at -30C. This has been tested and proven many times over....therefore it is not a myth and it will and does make a difference.

_3

There may very well be minor differences but I have never found a to spec gear oil that actually removes all cold weather issues. When shit is cold it's going to be cold, even synthetic oils thicken.

[zzz3]

Same door open warning light last morning didn't go off, had to open/close door twice. Using dashcam and Subwoofer hooked up no issues at all. Im using a motomaster battery from crappytire for little over $100 its perfect dashcam turns off if battery below 50%
http://youtu.be/dJ0A-EQcTZw

It was painful to watch that battery struggle to provide enough cca. It's pretty much destroyed if you've deep cycled it a bunch of times already. You need an agm battery.

[trulankan]

My issue is related to my dash cam. If I turn it off the dash can at night, and when I park at the subway, the car starts fine. If I leave the dash can on, the battery drains and needs to be boosted.
At some point, I need to invest in a deep cycle battery.

get the Eliminator Ultra AGM and call it a day :) you can pick it up on sale for $150 (reg $170) which is still much cheaper than the Optima (which is probably better if you want to spend the $). My battery fully drained recently, accelerated by the security system install and my dashcam which is always on with a voltage monitor -_- i'm hoping this battery will last but it comes with a 5-year warranty so I'm not worrying

[S.F.W.]

get the Eliminator Ultra AGM and call it a day :) you can pick it up on sale for $150 (reg $170) which is still much cheaper than the Optima (which is probably better if you want to spend the $). My battery fully drained recently, accelerated by the security system install and my dashcam which is always on with a voltage monitor -_- i'm hoping this battery will last but it comes with a 5-year warranty so I'm not worrying

I want the UltraXD as it is a deep cycle. Double the price yes, but the proper solution.

[Squisher]

There may very well be minor differences but I have never found a to spec gear oil that actually removes all cold weather issues. When shit is cold it's going to be cold, even synthetic oils thicken.

I believe there's truth in both points.

Certainly when sh-t is cold it's going to be that way until it starts to move awhile and warms up, oil/lube can only help so much with how that will feel. But also the oils/lube play a huge part in wear and useability in the cold and in extreme colds can make quite a difference. Take for instance that it's common in machinery to require different oils/lube for cold work environment duties.