Your opinion on cyclists

[mazda lover]

The protesting cyclists claimed that this protest was to highlight cyclist safety...

From my reading of the case, this is not a case of a drunk driver hitting a cyclist...it's an altercation between 2 men...one of them who happens to be a cyclist, but not riding at the time. The other being the driver of a car. I don't see how this has anything to do with cycling safety and rights in the city.

Of course, both drivers and cyclists agree that the roads are in bad condition. Riding bike isn't really in the Toronto culture as it's really only doable 8 months out of the yr...unlike Amsterdam where cycling is cultural and city planning revolved around it. It is unfair to say that Toronto does not support cycling becuase until about 15 yrs ago, the city was still relatively sparsely populated that cycling (and the green movement) wasn't the "responsible thing to do" like it is today.

Regardless of whether that dude was a cyclist or not, if you jumped into my convertible, I can't help but think that I might do the same thing.

well said +1

[Unoriginalusername]

as more information has come out on this incident i retract my comments as it relates to this particular incident. this is not a cycling incident... it is a drunk fool who attacked someone in a convertable and the driver did what most anyone would do to try and escape

[JMAK74]

Example, night time and car driving down a street that has no stop signs for it and following speed limit and doing nothing illegal (full lights on, all in working order, everything). Biker coming up to a stop sign for him but decides for whatever reason to keep going thinking he can beat the car or is otherwise impaired with alcohol/drugs/whatever that it just doesn't register that there is a car. Car tries to stop but can't and hits bike. Worst case, biker dies and person driving car is likely charged. Best case, biker lives but is hurt, again, person driving car is likely charged.

As the way you have described it - in the end - the person on the bicyle would be charged with not stopping at the stop sign and the driver wouldn't be charged. In Toronto couple years back they had an incident of a driver hittin and killed a motorcyclist under similar circ's - had the driver no fled the scene, he wouldn't have been charged with anyting as the motorcylcist had illegally entered the intersection - basically similar to what you have described above.

That being said, I do have to agree with you that in the end, when things to go horribly between a car and either a bike or pedistrian - that drivers of cars/trucks tend to have the hammer put on them immeidately.

[Iceman_F1]

As the way you have described it - in the end - the person on the bicyle would be charged with not stopping at the stop sign and the driver wouldn't be charged. In Toronto couple years back they had an incident of a driver hittin and killed a motorcyclist under similar circ's - had the driver no fled the scene, he wouldn't have been charged with anyting as the motorcylcist had illegally entered the intersection - basically similar to what you have described above.

That being said, I do have to agree with you that in the end, when things to go horribly between a car and either a bike or pedistrian - that drivers of cars/trucks tend to have the hammer put on them immeidately.

I don't recall that incident. But yeah, that was the general point I was making. People see the person in the car at fault before they think of anything else...

[kramr]

I used to cycle heavy, something like 1600k a month. I stopped at stop signs, when coming to a light I would stop behind the car that just passed me etc. I followed the rules of the road as if I were driving a car. Yes, I agree totally, there are some cyclists out there that should not be on the road as they are jumping curbs to pass cars or avoid lights or even simply pulling up along side the right hand side of a car that just passed them. I don't like passing a cyclist twice as a driver hence my reason for stopping behind the car, in the centre of the lane, that just passed me. When the light went green I snapped my cleats into my pedals and moved over to the right. In the city, on a good stretch with no lights or stop signs I would usually clip along as close to the curb as possible going about 35 to 40 kph. There were quite a few times where I exceeded the speed limit on a good stretch which is when I took the centre of the road. There are a lot of drivers out there that need to reconize the fact that there are cyclists on the road, good ones or bad ones, they do exist.
I had a pickup truck turn into my lane (I was heading north and he wanted to go south) well we collided head on at approx. (my estimate speed from a buddy about a block behind me) 50 to 60 kmh. The driver of the truck of the truck didn't see my light, my white t shirt, my white helmet on a very well lit road at 9:50pm. I went over the hood and cab of the truck and landed in the opposing lane of traffic. I suffered numberous breaks and lacerations and a closed head injury (brain damage). The driver of the truck was charged with Turn Not in Safety under the Highway Traffic Act, he was convicted in court after fighing it. I don't remember a thing about the accident, from about 30 min. prior to, to about a week afterwards. A month in the hospitial and 10 months of various forms of therapy. I was lucky!!
Long story short (I know to late), I think cyclists should be on the road or path if available and maintained properly by the city. Cyclists should be aware of drivers and the fact that they are hard to see, night time or day time, and should be predictable to a driver that does see them also drivers need to pay attention to that fact that there may be cyclists on the road no matter what time of day and look for them and treat them as a vehicle of the road, give them room when the room is available and if there is no room available, slow down until there is room.
True I am a little biased on this topic but I am trying to remain as neutral as I can because I am a cyclist and a driver.
My two cents!!

[yearoftherat]

Working at a major trauma center, I see the aftermath of vehicles vs cyclists. As an avid cyclist myself, I hate riding in this city. This city is def not bike friendly in regards to bike lanes, etc. It never has been and as much as the mayor talks, it will never be. I agree with kramr that cyclists should be aware of what is going around them.

[Chester_Lampwick]

Great post kramr! You should become a cyclist re-educator or something. Man that was an awful accident you had.

I would not consider myself a cyclist. I was commuting to work this summer on a rail trail free from cars. Unfortunately, the end of the trail is two blocks from my house. Less than a block from my house, some in a car pulls out in front of me, after I thought I had made eye contact. Well, knowing I'd be hit by this guy, or into the side of his car I grabbed my brakes hard. A little too much front, and over the handlebars I go. During my flight I managed to get my hands out, and broke my fall not even scraping myself. Marks on my hands gone the next day. My ribs hurt for six weeks.

As for the guy in the car? Didn't stop. Must have seen me on the ground in his mirrors. Not to generalize, but 18 - 20 year old punk. I should have approached him like a known drunk... That will teach me not to discriminate

So that ends two weeks of bicycle commuting

[Scottobot]

...you have to be an idiot to bike in downtown.

I guess I'm an idiot then.

I live in Brampton, I take the GO train to Union, and I bike from Union to Jarvis/Bloor. If it's raining I take the TTC. I've been doing this for the summer. Fortunately, knock on wood, I have had no incidents. The closest calls I have had were with pedestrians, in fact, who didn't look before stepping out onto the street since they didn't hear a car coming.

I do think Toronto needs to do more to promote cycling as a viable and safe option. It's great to be outside, cycling promotes health and fitness, and it's enviro-friendly. To me, driving cars in downtown Toronto is really inefficient and wasteful (although I recognize that many people may have little choice). Bikes are slow? On my way back to Union (slightly downhill) I often get from my workplace to Front St. as quickly as cars do, what with all the red lights and congestion (and no, I don't ride like an idiot).

All this talk about licensing and insuring cyclists strikes me as ridiculous. Adding red tape to a the process to someone getting onto a bike will just prevent people from using bikes as commuters at all, and I'd be really embarrassed to be living in the first country in the world (that I know of) that's so prudish and up-tight that we actually license people to ride a freaking bike. I don't think it would save lives and I don't think it would make people ride more responsibly.. it would just keep people off bikes period, which I think is a bad thing.

Anyway, I'm a little embarrassed about the demonstration that took place pursuant to this guy's death. Clearly a shame someone died, but not exactly a great representation of the cycling community in terms of character. I agree, I'm not sure I wouldn't have tried to take off if a freaky looking drunk and aggressive guy was trying to attack me in my convertible. I hope I never have to find out.

[JSI]

I guess I'm an idiot then.

On my way back to Union (slightly downhill) I often get from my workplace to Front St. as quickly as cars do, what with all the red lights and congestion.

So I guess you don't obey red lights then?

[Scottobot]

So I guess you don't obey red lights then?

I absolutely never go through a red light. I do not want to get killed.
What I mean is that there so many red lights downtown that from light to light I catch up.

[froggy]

All this talk about licensing and insuring cyclists strikes me as ridiculous. Adding red tape to a the process to someone getting onto a bike will just prevent people from using bikes as commuters at all, and I'd be really embarrassed to be living in the first country in the world (that I know of) that's so prudish and up-tight that we actually license people to ride a freaking bike. I don't think it would save lives and I don't think it would make people ride more responsibly.. it would just keep people off bikes period, which I think is a bad thing.

this is your opinion and your entitled to it. Although i must say that you are completely wrong. As a cyclist I would have thought that you would welcome something like this. Knowing that (for the most part) like drivers on the road that the other cyclists should have at least some education on how to ride a bike on an active street with other users and vehicles. People require licenses for other forms of transportation and it doesn't stop them from using them.

Second point we would not be the first country in the world to do this. Portugal which i know first hand bicycles have to have a license plate at least to ride on a public road.

Thirdly we are a country in a temperate zone, which means that we have winter and snow, which does not make for viable or safe means of transportation/commuting for aprox 1/4 of the year. The last thing that we need for both cyclists and drivers are bikes slipping and sliding out of control in icy conditions and trying to share already constricted lanes (because of the snow piled up on the sides, which in many cases consists of the bike lanes{ in my opinion the only good reason for the existence of bike lanes in this city})

to your last point. I would rather have less people on bikes but having them be more responsible and educated than the free for all that we have now. Toronto isn't and never will be a bike friendly city unless 2 specific things happen.

1) Global warming makes the yearly temperature in Toronto like that in Southern Europe and
2) The infrastructure of all our major thoroughfares is completely and radically changed to accommodate pedestrians, cyclists, cars, and public transit

Oh and PS the only reason traffic is as bad as it actually is, is because we have an anti car mayor who is doing everything in his power to make the downtown core as car unfriendly as possible.

[emcdonnell]

I agree with licensing for anyone looking to ride bikes on the public roads. With that said it should not be difficult or expensive. Lets say $20 bucks for license and require a simple test regarding the rules of the road (as relating to a bike). To many people on bikes do not follow any rules, This makes them unpredictable and therefore dangerous to other vehicles and themselves (yes there are plenty of bad drivers out there to). If bikes are going to share the road (and they have every right to do so) they must be aware of the rules and follow them. The only way to ensure that they know the rules is to make them prove their knowledge with a test of some kind and issue a licence that proves they have the knowledge. It also makes them accountable. If they know they are breaking the law then they can't claim ignorance as a defense.

[Scottobot]

this is your opinion and your entitled to it. Although i must say that you are completely wrong.

Great, so that's your opinion, and I think you're completely wrong.

As a cyclist I would have thought that you would welcome something like this.

I would not welcome a fee to ride a bike, or wasting my time attending a course to hear some instructor tell me that riding through a red light is bad.

Knowing that (for the most part) like drivers on the road that the other cyclists should have at least some education on how to ride a bike on an active street with other users and vehicles.

Don't they teach bicycle safety in schools any more? They did when I was a kid, and taught us how to use hand signals and stuff. Shouldn't that be enough?

People require licenses for other forms of transportation and it doesn't stop them from using them.

Having a car to get around in most parts of Canada is practically a necessity. So it's worth it for people to go through the licensing program and pay insurance. I seriously doubt people would elect to do so for bicycles. I probably wouldn't. One of the reasons I ride when the weather's good is to save on TTC fare.

Second point we would not be the first country in the world to do this. Portugal which i know first hand bicycles have to have a license plate at least to ride on a public road.

I didn't know that. I did a quick Google and I didn't see anything about it other than for bike couriers. I wonder what the licensing requirements are (courses, education). I also wonder what the cyclist population in Portugal is, and whether the licensing program has helped reduce accidents. Additionally, when I worked in Lisbon for a few months in 2001 I noticed that drivers there are very aggressive.
I did see that it appears as though California requires cyclists to pay a licensing fee of $3 every three years. I don't see any education/course requirements. So it looks like a money grab.

Thirdly we are a country in a temperate zone, which means that we have winter and snow, which does not make for viable or safe means of transportation/commuting for aprox 1/4 of the year. The last thing that we need for both cyclists and drivers are bikes slipping and sliding out of control in icy conditions and trying to share already constricted lanes (because of the snow piled up on the sides, which in many cases consists of the bike lanes{ in my opinion the only good reason for the existence of bike lanes in this city})

I don't think I mentioned winter, and I have no intention of riding in winter personally. I agree it's way too dangerous to be slipping around on a busy road with a bike. When I lived in Germany I rode all year round because there are so many bike paths I didn't have to ride on the road at all.

I would rather have less people on bikes but having them be more responsible and educated than the free for all that we have now.

I'm not sure why everyone's talking about education. Do you think that people who ride their bikes through red lights do it because they don't know it's wrong or unsafe? I guess they do it because they're not worried about consequences, but I'm only guessing because I don't do it.

I'm pretty sure the woman I saw driving a car on Thursday afternoon at Yonge and King had a license and knew that doing a 3-point U-turn on Yonge Street is illegal, but she did it anyway. Taking people's cars away for doing 50kph over the limit doesn't stop everyone from doing it. Telling people what's right and wrong doesn't mean they're actually going to do it.

Toronto isn't and never will be a bike friendly city unless 2 specific things happen.

1) Global warming makes the yearly temperature in Toronto like that in Southern Europe

I don't think that's necessary for making cycling an attractive option for commuters when there's no snow on the ground.

2) The infrastructure of all our major thoroughfares is completely and radically changed to accommodate pedestrians, cyclists, cars, and public transit

Isn't this what cyclists would like to see? I know I would. The longer we wait to modernize Toronto's infrastructure, the harder it will be.

Oh and PS the only reason traffic is as bad as it actually is, is because we have an anti car mayor who is doing everything in his power to make the downtown core as car unfriendly as possible.

As far as I know, the current mayor has been in this position since 2003, and traffic in downtown Toronto was bad way before that. Is it worse today? Probably, but my understanding is the overall car population is growing so I'm not sure I'd blame it all on the mayor. Anyway as mentioned I'm not opposed to reducing the number of cars in the downtown core by making it less convenient to drive there. I lived in Munich for several years, where owning a car is more of a liability than a benefit, and if you look up in the middle of the pedestrian-only downtown core the sky is a beautiful blue, not smog-glazed haze.

[Chester_Lampwick]

I'm not sure I agree fully with tsaotablem.

I would not welcome a fee to ride a bike, or wasting my time attending a course to hear some instructor tell me that riding through a red light is bad.
Yeah, I didn't like when those driving instructors were harping on and on about right of way... Who needs that?


Don't they teach bicycle safety in schools any more? They did when I was a kid, and taught us how to use hand signals and stuff. Shouldn't that be enough?
Of course. I mean what you were taught and forgot in the second grade is all you'd ever need to know. Riding at 10km/h through a suburban neighbourhood from school to baseball diamond is exactly the same as riding through rush hour traffic with construction, delivery trucks, streetcars, traffic lights, one way streets, crosswalks, etc. No need to revisit this. Ever. Wait I missed that day(30 minute assembly) of school.


I did see that it appears as though California requires cyclists to pay a licensing fee of $3 every three years. I don't see any education/course requirements. So it looks like a money grab.
$3 every 3 years? $1 per year is a money grab? Probably doesn't cover all the administrative costs


I'm not sure why everyone's talking about education. Do you think that people who ride their bikes through red lights do it because they don't know it's wrong or unsafe? I guess they do it because they're not worried about consequences, but I'm only guessing because I don't do it.
Yes this is the only example of unsafe cycling behavior. Cruising up between stopped cars and the curb is entirely safe.


I'm pretty sure the woman I saw driving a car on Thursday afternoon at Yonge and King had a license and knew that doing a 3-point U-turn on Yonge Street is illegal, but she did it anyway. Taking people's cars away for doing 50kph over the limit doesn't stop everyone from doing it. Telling people what's right and wrong doesn't mean they're actually going to do it.
So why educate/licence drivers at all? I mean, they'll do what they want, right?


Isn't this what cyclists would like to see? I know I would. The longer we wait to modernize Toronto's infrastructure, the harder it will be.
So how should we collect tax money from cyclists for this? Spandex tax?


I lived in Munich for several years, where owning a car is more of a liability than a benefit, and if you look up in the middle of the pedestrian-only downtown core the sky is a beautiful blue, not smog-glazed haze.
I don't know. Modern car exhausts are pretty darn clean when it comes to particulate matter. Is it possible that Munich doesn't have lake effect humidity? Is it possible that smoke that mixes with this comes from other places than downtown, and other sources other than cars?

[froggy]

thank you chester for saving me the effort of writing another rebuttal, you pretty much took the words out of my mouth. Another thing I didn't mention is that bicycles are not proper vehicles for families and for most people with jobs. You can't pick up and drop off your kids with a 10 speed. Unlike myself who works for a highschool, and in the phys-ed department, and has access to a shower at work, people will sweat commuting to and from work and I don't know how popular or how long you will be at your job site if you smell like you stepped off of a basketball court everytime you show up for work!

[mazda lover]

thank you chester for saving me the effort of writing another rebuttal, you pretty much took the words out of my mouth. Another thing I didn't mention is that bicycles are not proper vehicles for families and for most people with jobs. You can't pick up and drop off your kids with a 10 speed. Unlike myself who works for a highschool, and in the phys-ed department, and has access to a shower at work, people will sweat commuting to and from work and I don't know how popular or how long you will be at your job site if you smell like you stepped off of a basketball court everytime you show up for work!

so true, thought the same...smelly people

[mazda lover]

On CP24 they interviewed someone on the street where the accident occured said if the person that killed the cyclist wasn't severely punished he said the city will explode
What a dumb As*

[SSmoked]

the only thing i have to say to cyclists is GTFO the road when theres a side walk beside u.
u dont understand how hard it is driving around a corner or up a hill and seeing a cyclists in your lane and u gotta move out of their way, endangering your life, when theres a friggen sidewalk they can be riding on.
i cant speak for the peoblem in the city tho cause i rarely drive dowtown.

[kramr]

the only thing i have to say to cyclists is GTFO the road when theres a side walk beside u.
u dont understand how hard it is driving around a corner or up a hill and seeing a cyclists in your lane and u gotta move out of their way, endangering your life, when theres a friggen sidewalk they can be riding on.
i cant speak for the peoblem in the city tho cause i rarely drive dowtown.

LOL
No it is you that doesn't understand what it is like to ride a $2000 bicycle on a sidewalk wondering if you rims are going to take the pounding of the expansion cracks, the swerving around cars who are waiting to get into traffic from side streets and block the sidewalk, moving around un predictable pedestrians, going up and down the ramps going on and off the road from the sidewalk at intersections etc. I know exactly what it is like going up a hill or around a corner only to have a cyclist I have to move for, remember, we all drive as this is a Mazda fourm. Try doing it with a city bus or a truck, actually, if you have problems doing it with a Mazda than maybe you shouldn't try it with a larger vehicle. I've had my bicycle up to 76 kmh on a secondary highway that was flat, so I know how to get a bicycle moving city or not. I refuse to get on the sidewalk and ride, not to mention London does have a bylaw against it too!

[froggy]

LOL
No it is you that doesn't understand what it is like to ride a $2000 bicycle on a sidewalk wondering if you rims are going to take the pounding of the expansion cracks

I"m sorry but with a $2000 bike do you really have to worry about expansion cracks? unless all the money was spent on the frame, and gears, with cheap rims. I'm assuming you're talking about a road bike with >10mm wide rims but still??? I'm not used to road bikes as much as I am with mountain bikes and freestyles, so forgive me if this an actual legitimate concern

[kramr]

I"m sorry but with a $2000 bike do you really have to worry about expansion cracks? unless all the money was spent on the frame, and gears, with cheap rims. I'm assuming you're talking about a road bike with >10mm wide rims but still??? I'm not used to road bikes as much as I am with mountain bikes and freestyles, so forgive me if this an actual legitimate concern

Well, I do have a road bicycle with campy aero rims, not the cheapest. Sure they can take some abuse but the constant pounding of expansion cracks not to mention the up and down on and off the sidewalk at every intersection is not the best for them. Warps don't fix themselfs and hitting a bump at the wrong angle warps. Good frame with STI shifting, Rossin Ghilbi and my seat doesn't have a whole lot of padding either. It is meant for roads, not sidewalks or gravel lanes, roads. I'm not tour material so riding on cobblestone roads in France isn't gonna happen!!

[alhope34]

Whole article if not already posted...

http://www.thestar.com/article/689220


And people have to remember, there are two sides to the story...

http://www.dropmachine.com/forum/vie...p?f=12&t=33394


I used to be an avid rider and still ride sometimes. Ive put in a lot of time and clocked a lot of kms on the roads in Toronto and the GTA. I cant even count how many close calls Ive had, none of which were my cause. Lucky only been hit twice. One time a taxi went right up beside me and side swiped me, another time someone was driving in the same lane as me and turned right directly infront of me. I smashed into their rear door and left a nice dent. Luckily I slowed enough I didnt go right over the car. Both of these people just took off like nothing happened. I always give riders plenty of space when I drive and be courteous on the road because I know what riding is actually like. Anyone who gets angry at bikers for just being on the road, period, should actually try riding sometime. I hate it when people whine and cry when they actually have to move over 3 feet to give someone else enough room so they can speed by them.

[kramr]

Whole article if not already posted...

http://www.thestar.com/article/689220


And people have to remember, there are two sides to the story...

http://www.dropmachine.com/forum/vie...p?f=12&t=33394


I used to be an avid rider and still ride sometimes. Ive put in a lot of time and clocked a lot of kms on the roads in Toronto and the GTA. I cant even count how many close calls Ive had, none of which were my cause. Lucky only been hit twice. One time a taxi went right up beside me and side swiped me, another time someone was driving in the same lane as me and turned right directly infront of me. I smashed into their rear door and left a nice dent. Luckily I slowed enough I didnt go right over the car. Both of these people just took off like nothing happened. I always give riders plenty of space when I drive and be courteous on the road because I know what riding is actually like. Anyone who gets angry at bikers for just being on the road, period, should actually try riding sometime. I hate it when people whine and cry when they actually have to move over 3 feet to give someone else enough room so they can speed by them.

Agreed!!!!!

[froggy]

If you want to be technical there are actually 3 sides to every story (no matter how objective/impartial you try to be)
1) your side
2) their side
3) the truth

[kramr]

If you want to be technical there are actually 3 sides to every story (no matter how objective/impartial you try to be)
1) your side
2) their side
3) the truth

True and fair enough!
End all be all, I'm not going to get in a pi**ing match with anyone and had no intent with any of my previous posts. As a cyclist who nearly died because of a driver who was at fault, I am a little biased. I am also a driver of my car and much larger vehicles who has to be on the look out for cyclists. I can see both sides of the story. I now work with the driver of the truck that hit me, I don't see him everyday but when I do it is like nothing has ever happened. S**t happens, accidents happen. If he intened to hit me then it would be a different story!!