Bad Drivers

[Aitch]

Asyed, you're an idiot.

Nowhere did I say anything about race. I mentioned immigrants because they have already become accustomed to a certain culture, rules, etc, which are likely different than what we have here in Canada.

An example would be someone from England moving to Canada. Right hand drive, left side of the road, is sure to be a habit that needs breaking. It's safe to assume that if you've got muscle memory, habits, etc, that you won't be able to adjust overnight.

You're the idiot. You are both saying the same thing - that drivers coming from a place with less stringent training and/or poor road etiquette won't be good drivers here.

You certainly weren't referencing British/Japanese/Australian drivers in this quote:


The areas with the highest number of immigrants are where the worst driving happens. Look it up lol.

... as there aren't exactly high-density pockets of those populations around the GTA for you to reference for your anecdote. The obvious implication is that you were referencing the same type of countries that asyed is.

[m_bisson]

You're the idiot. You are both saying the same thing - that drivers coming from a place with less stringent training and/or poor road etiquette won't be good drivers here.

You certainly weren't referencing British/Japanese/Australian drivers in this quote:



... as there aren't exactly high-density pockets of those populations around the GTA for you to reference for your anecdote. The obvious implication is that you were referencing the same type of countries that asyed is.

Don't you DARE infer any sort of racism on my part. What makes you think you have that right?

That's the lowest I've seen you stoop. Shame on you. I'm done with this bullshit.

[Default User]

I don't believe that it's a "race" or "cultural" issue causing poor driving habits.

IMHO - it's just people relying and technology. Lane departure warnings, front collision warnings, self-parking cars, back-up cameras, auto headlights, auto wiper blades.....

All these "conveniences" are just encouraging bad lazy driving habits.

Is it too difficult for people to turn their heads to check blind spots when changing lanes or reversing?

[Aitch]

Don't you DARE infer any sort of racism on my part. What makes you think you have that right?

That's the lowest I've seen you stoop. Shame on you. I'm done with this bullshit.

Where did I imply that you were being racist? I said you are saying the same thing as asyed. Just because you're talking about "brown" folks, or Chinese/Asian etc, rather than British/Japanese/Australian (the only ones who drive on the left) doesn't automatically mean it's racist.

My wife is Sri Lankan. From our general and anecdotal experience (i.e. not scientifically tested) we both believe that Sri Lankan and other "brown" drivers in the area she grew up in are worse drivers than the general population. It would be racist if I made that accusation based on no experience, but simple prejudice or only what I hear from others.

Get this - there's a difference between talking about race, and being racist. I'm talking about the former, not the latter. If you're from a Western country, talking about people from a non-Western country, you can say "immigrant" but it still implies you are referring to a different race.

PS - what got me started was you calling asyed an idiot. Don't start an argument with name-calling.

[pwdunmore]

Bad driver's exist for the same reason stupid people exist... Women! They give birth to the stupids and bad drivers :chuckle

[asyed]

Bad driver's exist for the same reason stupid people exist... Women! They give birth to the stupids and bad drivers :chuckle

and humans...

[asyed]

Where did I imply that you were being racist? I said you are saying the same thing as asyed. Just because you're talking about "brown" folks, or Chinese/Asian etc, rather than British/Japanese/Australian (the only ones who drive on the left) doesn't automatically mean it's racist.

My wife is Sri Lankan. From our general and anecdotal experience (i.e. not scientifically tested) we both believe that Sri Lankan and other "brown" drivers in the area she grew up in are worse drivers than the general population. It would be racist if I made that accusation based on no experience, but simple prejudice or only what I hear from others.

Get this - there's a difference between talking about race, and being racist. I'm talking about the former, not the latter. If you're from a Western country, talking about people from a non-Western country, you can say "immigrant" but it still implies you are referring to a different race.

PS - what got me started was you calling asyed an idiot. Don't start an argument with name-calling.




THIS.





Also it seems like a recent trend lately to call asyed an "idiot" (or similar term)..... guess it makes people look cool in this forum.

[CloudPump]

Where did I imply that you were being racist? I said you are saying the same thing as asyed. Just because you're talking about "brown" folks, or Chinese/Asian etc, rather than British/Japanese/Australian (the only ones who drive on the left) doesn't automatically mean it's racist.
<SNIP>

There are quite a few other countries that drive on the left including (but not limited to) Bahamas, Brunei, Barbados, Hong Kong, Jamaica, Singapore, New Zealand, India, Bangladesh, Pakistan, Malaysia, Republic of Mauritius, South Africa and Trinidad & Tobago.

Left/Right driving has not been shown to be a significant factor in collisions. Many studies by European insurers looking at non-British Europeans driving in the UK and Brits taking their cars onto the continental landmass show that collision rates are very similar.

-Geoff

[tweak_s]

I don't believe that it's a "race" or "cultural" issue causing poor driving habits.

IMHO - it's just people relying and technology. Lane departure warnings, front collision warnings, self-parking cars, back-up cameras, auto headlights, auto wiper blades.....

All these "conveniences" are just encouraging bad lazy driving habits.

Is it too difficult for people to turn their heads to check blind spots when changing lanes or reversing?

I agree with you that there are too many people getting reliant on them.

However, the other side of the coin is that there are those who just need it. A friend of mine.. who's never been a car guy (we are the same age @ 26 and he JUST got his license), somehow passed the G2, yet, frequently forgets to turn on headlights or barely knows how the wipers work. This is poor driver education on the car. I'm kind of glad auto exists for that.

I have no idea how he passed the test with his technique.ABS seems to come on a lot for him with the "poor brakes". Nuff said. Some people clearly needs whatever assists they can to avoid hitting other people. however - the only bright side to that (providing no one gets hurt) is that they will realize they're not that great a driver after all.
I'll argue some assists are good. They can help even the typically good driver in a sticky situation or on a bad day.

[Aitch]

There are quite a few other countries that drive on the left including (but not limited to) Bahamas, Brunei, Barbados, Hong Kong, Jamaica, Singapore, New Zealand, India, Bangladesh, Pakistan, Malaysia, Republic of Mauritius, South Africa and Trinidad & Tobago.

Left/Right driving has not been shown to be a significant factor in collisions. Many studies by European insurers looking at non-British Europeans driving in the UK and Brits taking their cars onto the continental landmass show that collision rates are very similar.

-Geoff

I should have remembered NZ and HK. Didn't realize India and Pakistan were on that list too.

I'm glad the research backs up my own thoughts on that situation. I've always thought reasonably good drivers shouldn't have much of an issue with the swap. When I drove in the UK the only thing that I found odd for the first hour was looking up and left for the rear-view mirror, instead of down and left as usual where our outside driver's mirror would be.

[trebororr]

Fan fiction is fun.

Driver examiners do not work for the province of Ontario. Ontario has outsourced driver testing to a private company. Driver examiners are not accountable to the Ministry of Transportation.

Ontario has NEVER made seniors do a driving exam at 70 or at 65 if they've had an at-fault loss. The ministry of transportation does not keep track of who has had accidents or who is at fault for them. Wander down to your local Service Ontario location and ask for your accident history report, they'll happily tell you that they don't have that information.

There was no campaign to change this "law" as it didn't exist.

Furthermore, Ontario DOES have requirements TODAY for seniors to go through drivers license retesting every two years once they reach the age of 80.

This has to be one of the more inaccurate posts I've ever read.

-Geoff

Not sure who you are and where you are finding your information from but my information has been gathered thru first-hand experience.

I have worked as a Driver Examiner with the Ministry of Transportation of Ontario in the years 2000-2003 and for Drivetest in the years 2003 (service take-over) to 2004.

In the early 2000’s I performed many driving tests of senior citizens on a daily basis. As I conducted driver examinations for cars, motorcycles, trucks, buses and ambulances it difficult to keep track of everyone that I saw and why they had to see me. You are right after having reviewed the information that I presented there are errors, but not as many as you have presented in your reply.

Here are the facts after editing. Senior drivers involved in an at fault collision have to perform a driving test starting at age 70 not 65. Commercial drivers (class A) currently have to perform a driving test at age 65 and that is maybe where my confusion began; but this is proposed to change so that they will have to perform a driving test only if they are involved in a collision or have more than 3 demerit points on their driving record. Drivers aged 80 not 70 as I indicated, did have to complete a driving test until this was changed in 1997 due to government lobbying by CARP (Canadian Association of Retired Persons). Further, drivers of any age who are involved in 3 or more collisions in any two year period are reviewed and may be told to complete a driving test by a Driver Improvement Councillor; this is known as the Collision Repeater Program.

As for the information which you claim that doesn’t exist, what information do you think that the Driver Improvement Councillor uses to make their decision to suspend your licence or to have you attend remedial driver program or to complete driving test when you are asked to visit with them? It is amazing as to what information is in the MTO database; some of it is not even directly related to driving such as credit history. If by your local Service Ontario location you mean the licensing office in your neighbourhood that is a private contractor; they have very limited access to the MTO database.

I recommend that you spend some time on the MTO website and search for Driver Control and you will see the programs which I stated: “Remedial Measures Program, Over 70 Collision Re-test, and Collision Repeater Program”.

As for Driver Examination Services, Drivetest is a recognized authority to perform driver examinations (licenced by Ontario) by the government of Ontario. MTO oversees the procedure and has the ability to fine and often does when procedures are not followed. The licence to perform driver examinations by Drivetest in limited to a particular time period and renewal of licence is not automatic.

[CloudPump]

Not sure who you are and where you are finding your information from but my information has been gathered thru first-hand experience.

I have worked as a Driver Examiner with the Ministry of Transportation of Ontario in the years 2000-2003 and for Drivetest in the years 2003 (service take-over) to 2004.

In the early 2000’s I performed many driving tests of senior citizens on a daily basis. As I conducted driver examinations for cars, motorcycles, trucks, buses and ambulances it difficult to keep track of everyone that I saw and why they had to see me. You are right after having reviewed the information that I presented there are errors, but not as many as you have presented in your reply.

Here are the facts after editing. Senior drivers involved in an at fault collision have to perform a driving test starting at age 70 not 65. Commercial drivers (class A) currently have to perform a driving test at age 65 and that is maybe where my confusion began; but this is proposed to change so that they will have to perform a driving test only if they are involved in a collision or have more than 3 demerit points on their driving record. Drivers aged 80 not 70 as I indicated, did have to complete a driving test until this was changed in 1997 due to government lobbying by CARP (Canadian Association of Retired Persons). Further, drivers of any age who are involved in 3 or more collisions in any two year period are reviewed and may be told to complete a driving test by a Driver Improvement Councillor; this is known as the Collision Repeater Program.

As for the information which you claim that doesn’t exist, what information do you think that the Driver Improvement Councillor uses to make their decision to suspend your licence or to have you attend remedial driver program or to complete driving test when you are asked to visit with them? It is amazing as to what information is in the MTO database; some of it is not even directly related to driving such as credit history. If by your local Service Ontario location you mean the licensing office in your neighbourhood that is a private contractor; they have very limited access to the MTO database.

I recommend that you spend some time on the MTO website and search for Driver Control and you will see the programs which I stated: “Remedial Measures Program, Over 70 Collision Re-test, and Collision Repeater Program”.

As for Driver Examination Services, Drivetest is a recognized authority to perform driver examinations (licenced by Ontario) by the government of Ontario. MTO oversees the procedure and has the ability to fine and often does when procedures are not followed. The licence to perform driver examinations by Drivetest in limited to a particular time period and renewal of licence is not automatic.

I'm a licensed Ontario insurance broker who deals with a large portion of this on a daily basis.

Here is the MTO information on seniors renewing licenses:

http://www.mto.gov.on.ca/english/dandv/driver/senior-driver-renewal-program.shtml

By Service Ontario, I mean Service Ontario, not a Licensing and Plating office. Currently, if you want a record of your claims history, you can obtain this either by acquiring letters of experience from all your past insurers or through a private company, CGI who maintains the databased used by insurers for claims reporting. Neither of these is the ministry of transportation.

Here is the list of the responsibilities of the Driver improvement office:

https://www.ontario.ca/driving-and-roads/what-driver-improvement-office

Not much there.

You're going to have to provide me with some evidence of a massive 1997 campaign by CARP to change the testing age for seniors as they've done a great job of erasing all evidence of it.

-Geoff

[CloudPump]

Ontario Transportation Ministry officials advise that, under the 70+ Collision Program, drivers age 70 and over who are involved in a collision and are subsequently convicted of a traffic violation in relation to the collision are required to successfully complete a vision, knowledge and level 2 (G2) road test. The determination of fault associated with the driver action preceding a collision is not a consideration. The sole consideration is whether or not the driver was convicted of a collision-related offence.

There is a program for those convicted of collision-related offences. There is no program for at-fault collisions as the ministry doesn't keep track of them. They only see that a collision related offence took place. Fault in the collision is irrelevant to this program.

-Geoff

[greyseason]

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=cb7_1416464585

[JackyMS3]

Ohh..racism, stereotype, same shit...let me be honest to everyone here. I am a racist, and I stereotype the shit out of races and or genders that I dont like on the street. Will I say it out loud? Probably not. But my action says it all. Example? A middleage woman, driving in a beat up corolla. Before she even do anything, i will try to avoid her already. Will I give her the finger and start screaming? Nope...but i will definitely move the fack out of the way. Is that stereotyping? **** yeah. It's from experience that situation like this often end up in a pile of shit. How many ****ing times you see yourself surrounded by corollas and you say to yourself wtf is going, am I gonna die today in an accident?

These type of thoughts often exist in ppl's mind but they just think they are like the ****ing saint. You dont talk about it doesnt make you not a racist. SOmetimes, I thiNk I am a car racist, cuz if the lady is away from her car, i'll be cool with her. We could be best friends.

[JackyMS3]

Just like ppl saying bmw drivers are all *******s. I dont think so. I think there are misunderstandings. Ppl who say bmw drivers are *******s are often the ones who never driven one before. You can do a lot of crazy shit in those little puppies which may deem "dangerous" to other non ******* drivers. But if you are the bmw driver, the stunts you just pulled through is like an everyday thing. The move is so smooth and natural that you dont think anything is wrong.

[JackyMS3]

Allow me to explain further, i'm not promoting racism or whatever, i am saying everyone is a racist to a certain point. You laughed at some asian's accent, gramma, hair style or even BO, these are offensive to them ppl. All i gotta say is, dont be so sensitive. Sensitive ppl are usually the worst.

[SirWanker]

et tu JackyMS3

[asyed]

redacted....

[RTEnthusiast]

As a brown man , I would like to apologize for my race's poor excuse of driver education back home as well as unwillingless to learn proper road etiquette.

Im not even being racist because its extremely true. Driver education back home sucks completely and law enforcement is shitty in general. Its common practice to bribe the police officer out of a ticket... should you be unlucky enough to get pulled over.


As a result alot of Brown people ( mostly those that learned to drive back home) are overtly aggressive drivers as they are back home.

Im not too sure about this but at one point there was even a scam going around where people literally paid for their license and didnt have to take a drivers test because they knew someone at MTO.



Also the further north you go.... the more good drivers you meet.

Are you kidding me? You've said some stupid things, but this is by far the most offensive and disrespectful thing I've ever seen you post. What qualifies you to determine this? I'm South Asian, and my parents have been here since the 80s. They're both extremely competent drivers and I have taken part in as well as instructed multiple advanced driver training sessions. There are just as many crappy drivers of South Asian descent as there are Caucasian, Oriental, or any other race. I'm actually pretty appalled that you're generalizing in this way - shame on you.

Also, for a guy who goes nuts touting here as well as on social media about other people's bad driving habits, you're a pretty horrid driver. I've seen you exhibit plenty of bad habits both in slow-speed parking lot settings as well as driving at higher speeds, including some clear HTA violations. Don't forget you've been on multiple enthusiast car cruises I've organized.


I actually don't like parking near corollas and if I see one up ahead while driving I usually try passing it since 9/10 corolla drivers are in fact crappy drivers and also don't care if they ding your car.

Then again I avoid parking near beat up cars anyways

You avoid parking near beat-up cars? Is your late-model Mazda3 too good to park beside an honest man's older Corolla? My father put over 500,000km on his '90 Camry before handing it to me, and I put over 130K on it. It was pretty tired by the end of its run, and we NEVER dinged others' cars. Is there something wrong with you that you're generalizing people this hard? Wow.

On one hand I can't believe I'm even bothering to respond to someone with as sheltered and skewed a view of society as yourself, but I can't sit here and let you stereotype my ethnic background in such an offensive and obtuse manner. I actually pity you.

[loki]

LoL

[Stathakos]

http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/14/11/21/0dd4e21b5f5ca7acf8e2349c3afccd2b.jpg

[asyed]

Are you kidding me? You've said some stupid things, but this is by far the most offensive and disrespectful thing I've ever seen you post. What qualifies you to determine this? I'm South Asian, and my parents have been here since the 80s. They're both extremely competent drivers and I have taken part in as well as instructed multiple advanced driver training sessions. There are just as many crappy drivers of South Asian descent as there are Caucasian, Oriental, or any other race. I'm actually pretty appalled that you're generalizing in this way - shame on you.





I wasnt trying to be offensive( And would like to apologize for offending you). Hence the " as a brown man" part. Never said all brown people are bad drivers.

But if you look at how the driving culture is back there its clear to see that many people accustomed to that driving style would cause a bit of chaos here. Although I have known some people who went from being crazy drivers to adapting to the Canadian driving style, a lot of people like to think they are better off and try to "beat the system" and also bring over the bad habits they have picked up back there. To put into perspective , in Pakistan, a fair majority ( again not all) of drivers there are aggressive and try to do their best to get somewhere faster... to the point that it can get terrifying at times.

Im glad that most of the people in my family ( if not all) do not drive in such a way and most got a proper driver education in Canada. But that doesnt mean everyone does it. Also I was just using brown people as an example. Theres lots of other races ( which I will not get into in detail) that have a similar driving style back home. Meanwhile if you look at people from countries that have better driver education, they drive much better in general ( for the most part) because they were initially thought that way and its become a habit.


TL DR; version : the brown man thing was an example and can be applied to other races too. I just found that i could relate more to that specific race.






Also, for a guy who goes nuts touting here as well as on social media about other people's bad driving habits, you're a pretty horrid driver. I've seen you exhibit plenty of bad habits both in slow-speed parking lot settings as well as driving at higher speeds, including some clear HTA violations. Don't forget you've been on multiple enthusiast car cruises I've organized.


Then how come you never bought it up at any of these meets /cruises? Lets not forget that a few of the others on the cruises (not naming any names) also had some HTA violations.
Not saying its a good thing but everyone makes minor HTA infractions from time to time.

I think you also have to draw the line with what is obeying the law and what is being moral/ feels like the right thing to do.

If you are talking about me doing 120-130 on the highway, most people I know do the same speed and it can be quite dangerous if you go any slower in some cases. On the other hand one could argue that it could also be more dangerous in certain situations but most people know better not to drive fast in those conditions. If its snowing or there is any other situation in which the road surface can be greatly impacted I usually dont exceed 100-110. But on perfectly clear conditions, theres nothing morally wrong with doing 120/130 provided everyone else is doing it. Even the best drivers I know exceed the speed limit regularly but they know how to be safe and responsible about it.

Now if there is any other things I did wrong feel free to message me and Il take any constructive criticism you may have. Driving is an ongoing learning experience and you can learn something new every day. Im always open to suggestions on how I can improve my driving. :)

Also


I do make stupid mistakes from time to time but every time I do something clearly wrong, I acknowledge my actions and own up to it( I have done some really stupid shit in my first year of driving that still haunts me to this day). A lot of drivers these days automatically assume they are in the right 100% and act like they did nothing wrong even after honking at them. Theres a huge bunch that I do forgive if they acknowledge their wrong doings ( via the wave at mirror hand signal). I used to be way more ocd about how others drove when I first started driving on a regular basis( for even simple stuff like moving straight over to the far right lane when making a left turn instead of turning into the left lane and then changing lanes). But over time you realize there's so many bad apples out there that you cant get mad at them all. Hon


If I ever try to justify my actions I do it off my knowledge. If their reasoning is reasonable enough, then I don't try to further justify myself and agree i was in the wrong. ( unlike those of other drivers from countries with poor driver education)
Come to think of it theres probably alot of stuff that I do that may be questionable by some members but everyone has their own idea of what "safe and responsible" is. Some people are overtly ocd (like I used to be) and used to call people out for the simplest of things like going too fast around a corner). While others are less ocd and unless you are driving blatantly unsafe, show signs that you don't really have it under your control, are not keeping others safety in mind and showing signs of it ( ie no blinkers/ no checking for traffic and pedestrians), and are not being respectful to other drivers( ie not letting others in on purpose), they usually don't bother you. I would never call someone out for doing something that I would do and have picked up a few ( by mto standards) bad habits myself such as driving with only one hand on the wheel ( If you really want to judge me by the rules).




I hope this clears things up.


- Aoun



EDIT: I should have mentioned in my original post that not ALL brown people are bad drivers. We just have a higher amount of "immigrant" drivers that are bad drivers based off the factors i have stated. Of course Correlation does not imply causation and I may be wrong in assuming this but I'm just going off from what I have seen first hand or the stories I have heard over the years.

[fruitloops]

Too long; didn't read.

[07carbon3]

aoun just stop

[Thrizzl3]

TL;DR


EDIT: I should have mentioned in my original post that not ALL brown people are bad drivers. We just have a higher amount of "immigrant" drivers that are bad drivers based off the factors i have stated. Of course Correlation does not imply causation and I may be wrong in assuming this but I'm just going off from what I have seen first hand or the stories I have heard over the years.

http://i455.photobucket.com/albums/qq273/guranteed_justice/140754640153_zpsb96b2666.jpg

Aoun there are times when you should think before you post..this was one of those posts...

[Aitch]

I think this has run its course.